12/12 from seed to harvest

[Palindrome]

Yeah the guy who wrote that stuff, he’s clearly a sales guy not a grower!
We can easy agree, he’s not a serious grower indeed!

I took part of my horticulture degree in Holland, yeah I am pretty sure I got an idea that we all grow on 12/12 at some point.
But that don’t change the fact, that growing 12/12 from seeds will not be better then 12/12 from clone in a SOG.
And the only reason to say so, is to sell seeds.

I don’t mind your selling seeds, but be straight up about it! If not old growers like me, will call you out on your sales tricks.
Not to belittle you, but to help the novice guy who might fall for your sales tricks. He should know both sides, before he makes his choice.

[Worcestershire_Farms]

Got to agree that a seed on 12 12 will not start to flower for a month, minimum.

I am a fan of 12 12 from seed but I had the feeling that the first month will go by faster with less dark.

[LemonadeJoe]

@Palindrome

Cuttings need time to develop roots and often you will have retards - retards??? only retard is the guy writing this BS

Why are you insulting another member? Please argue ad rem not ad hominem!

[LemonadeJoe]

@Palindrome

But that don’t change the fact, that growing 12/12 from seeds will not be better then 12/12 from clone in a SOG.

“Better” is very broad term. I’m not sure what you mean.

But from my experience plants from seed have usually bigger yield and are more vigorous than plants from clones (but of course I’m not comparing time needed to grow it).

There is no discussion that clones will react to light change faster than seedlings. There is a hitch when using clones and going straight 12/12 flowering one must be sure to let clones root properly.

[Palindrome]

@LemonadeJoe

Why are you insulting another member? Please argue ad rem not ad hominem!

Sry I didn’t catch at first it was his write up, it was a off site link and as I mention I disagree with pretty much all of it.
Used the frase, as I just read the word retrad. I can see how it can come off a little strong, my bad and Sorry for that @SpeesCees .

@LemonadeJoe

“Better” is very broad term. I’m not sure what you mean.

Just better will do, it will cost less GPW, it’s faster and the terp and resin production is better. You work with mature plants, seed’s run 12/12 from seed will never show full potential. Just like the first generation of clones, from a young mom won’t do a well as 3rd generation from a mom thats 9-12 months old.

@LemonadeJoe

But from my experience plants from seed have usually bigger yield and are more vigorous than plants from clones (but of course I’m not comparing time needed to grow it).

As an old money cropper, I have to concider the total production price. If I can make the same GPW, for less money and faster thats more optimal. To me at least, and who don’t wanna save money on both power and seeds in less time?

@LemonadeJoe

There is no discussion that clones will react to light change faster than seedlings. There is a hitch when using clones and going straight 12/12 flowering one must be sure to let clones root properly.

Rooting clones cost next to nothing, it takes very little space or work once u done your cutting. That is no cost, it’s only a matter of not being stoned out your mind 24/7 and make your clones in due time.

Seedlings you have to take in count that about 50% will be males, unless you go with fem seeds. But we are trying to save money, buying fem seed every run would also be much more costly. Or you would have to make your own seeds, and deal with seeded buds and breeding as well.

I will any day recommend new growers, to save money on power, avoid seeded buds and let the breeding be done by breaders.

I’ll put it to rest here and pull out, have a nice day ya’ll!

[Fuel]

Nice debunk Palindrome ^^ And classy.

@Palindrome

You work with mature plants, seed’s run 12/12 from seed will never show full potential.

I’m forced to disagree, but we are locked in this debate to show, comments after comments, how we disagree ^^
At this point, only to put the nuggets on the table will clear the debate between us. And will not profit to the community by the private aspect of this.

I say that with integrity and respect, and with a procedure in mind. Not in thinking to cheating you with a zamal hybrid than flower during 6 months ^^

@Palindrome

If I can make the same GPW, for less money and faster thats more optimal.

I think than the GPW is an ineffective ratio to calculate the cost per sqm of a grow op. This is a thing than we can easily debate on a specialized thread imho. But to stay in the subject, i will never drive a grow op with a SOG from seeds ^^

For an important point : the uniformity of the quality. When you put a dozen of LBS on the table of “strain AAA”, your “customer” want to take any nugget of package and have the same quality/potency/taste in the whole bag. It’s pretty obvious for us i guess, but it’s not necessary limpid for people than don’t really realize what is the real constraints of a large scale op.

@Palindrome

Rooting clones cost next to nothing, it takes very little space or work once u done your cutting.

I disagree, to stay on the subject of large scales production. This cost must be integrated in your price per gram. And it’s very not zero ^^ The most expensive angle being the turn over of all your motherplants and theyr maintenance; and the high density of light required than permit to don’t be doomed between too harvest. If you can’t harvest enough clones between twos harvest, you’re fucked and your costs per gram drastically increase.

@Palindrome

I will any day recommend new growers, to save money on power, avoid seeded buds and let the breeding be done by breaders.

I respect that. It’s your vision.
But i’m thinking the exact reverse ^^

Since near 20 years now, the market has proven than it rely more on the renew of each generations of growers to fck them on the standart of quality than anything else. I don’t need to explain, facts are here, than today we are begging and sometimes we become mad for things than was widely available yesterday.

And breeders are the slaves of the market; to be honest, to share a testimony in a way and to be direct without any anger. I must say than i feel big respect for all of them, even for guys like Arjan, to be clear. It’s a big darwinian game, and no one is really responsible in fact. Democratization and the rule of large numbers are. It’s just a change of paradigm.

So yes, if you have access to your favorite weed and than it is something than you truly love : Don’t rely on the market to maintain it, or you will have big regrets. Genetic production (not seed production) is the next war imho, but i assume than it is a very personal angle of vision of the future.

Now, to give an idea of what is a SOG from seeds … it’s maybe fair to share some pics lol

Pure sativas on a penny-cost test of generation, sweet memories of this sick selection lol :

Detail and tricks in photo, for the curious ones.

And to give an idea of what to expect from a 12/12 from seeds, in term of shape and to do a (nice) tribute to my last apprentice in breeding, in the same move :

[SpeesCees]

@Worcestershire_Farms

Got to agree that a seed on 12 12 will not start to flower for a month, minimum.

I am a fan of 12 12 from seed but I had the feeling that the first month will go by faster with less dark.

There’s a big mistake in the idea of some growers.
Germinating on 12 hours will show you in 18-20 days max who are the males and who are the females !
Plants will grow as fast then normal.
If they start flowering they are around 30cm. and you will be surprised how hard they also keep on growing besides the flowering proces.
SpeesCees

[SpeesCees]

@Palindrome

Seedlings you have to take in count that about 50% will be males, unless you go with fem seeds. But we are trying to save money, buying fem seed every run would also be much more costly. Or you would have to make your own seeds, and deal with seeded buds and breeding as well.

This must be a joke.
We are taking time after time at least 70% females.
Some strains even does give a higher % females.

SpeesCees

[SpeesCees]

@Palindrome

With pure Indica like Afghan #1 the yeild was IMO too low, so I would avoid pure indica.

And ehhhh… I guess that you are selling those “pure” Indica’s ?
Be sure… there are no 100% Indica’s anymore !
Calling me a commercial guy was not that funny since we NEVER do advertizing.

SpeesCees

[LED_Seedz]

@SpeesCees

Germinating on 12 hours will show you in 18-20 days max who are the males and who are the females !

True of Indicas, Sativas not so much. Like everything else about the hobby most things are strain specific.

That said nothing is going to perform to the same measurement if we are in a vegging state doing a 24/7 vs 12/12 and it’s not even close.

[Palindrome]

We all come from different walks in life, sure making clones aint free but IMO far from costly.

12/12 from seed can be a great way to test seed, I have done that on fairly large scale with 100’s of seedlings.

And if we are doing pics, let me join in and share some from my old op.

Clones for the bud production, under a few 36 W fluro tubes. They are grown 12/12 from clone, they spend 3 weeks on the table, from they where cut from the mom.

Spend 2 weeks like this, then repotted getting ready for the flower room a week later.

The flower rooms, where 2x 15.000 watt HPS - Running that, compared to some flurotubes a few weeks. That is not a cost you really calculate into the budget, but you are right it’s not a zero cost.

I’ll show some of the growing

Sat dom plants 12/12 from seed
Early

Later, but far from harvest

Canopy is crazy and out of controll!

Indica dom 12/12 from seed

Canopy is much better and even, but the time spend till harvest don’t pan out compared to clones.
Yeald was fairly even.

Clones 12/12

Canopy looks like it’s cut with a hedge trimmer, 10 weeks for a 10 week strain to harvest + 3 weeks rooting.

I am not selling anything, this is just my experiance.
Others will have other experiance I am sure, and that’s not a problem for me.

Im sharing my experiance, in how you will make the most for less in less time.
If some can use it, use it, if not feel free not to

Cheers ya’ll

[Worcestershire_Farms]

@SpeesCees

There’s a big mistake in the idea of some growers.
Germinating on 12 hours will show you in 18-20 days max who are the males and who are the females !

I have never seen it earlier than day ~30 across a large number of strains. I am getting the feeling your techniques, have been fine tuned to fit your system, which had been fine tuned to fit the strains you have fine tuned over 10+ years each to fit your technique

We havent recreated the specific results you’re seeing because we are not running the genetics you are running under the exact conditions you are running.

[Fuel]

@Palindrome

And if we are doing pics, let me join in and share some from my old op.

Not exactly.

More : And if we are doing pics about the SOG from seeds method (or even clone, why not), to give an idea to McMuffin and others members interrested to digg or to experiment this question, without be fooled on the subject.

I’ve not studied in Holland like you, i don’t have any degree btw. It’s mainly why cannabis hired me so young, to talk true. But i’m able to recognize, decades later, a plant than is hormonally locked by a SOG. And a plant that is not.

Maybe you don’t get me on it, but let’s imagine than i show you this pic :

Then just after, i try to sell you the fact than this plant never saw a 18/6 or 24/0 photoperiod. What do you will think about me ? How much credibility i will gain for furthers discussions ? That’s my point.

The first part of my share are a 100% pure africaan IBL shown in a very obvious perpetual setup. I’ve choosed this pic specially to show what happend (hormonally, i insist) to plants than grow usually at 5 meters height outdoor without this treatment.

The second part of my share are (sweet tooth#3 x skywalker) hybrids than we’ve worked with my friend, back in the days. To show the big difference than exist with twos well known stretchy commercial strains (than no longer exist in the market, to do a loop on my considerations about homebreeding), but than finish both below the 2 meters height outdoor.

Anyway, soon i will document in depth what is a SOG from seeds and from clones. Because i love this “walk” since the dutchs have converted me to this method, long time ago.

[Palindrome]

I don’t care if you have a degree or not, or how you grow, I hope the way you grow makes you happy.

Im sharing my experiance and results, if that’s a problem for you, that is your problem.
I have no problems, I grow how I like and if anyone can use my results great.
If not, and someone can show me, I was wrong, even better. Then I learn even more, from my experiance.

So if you can show me, and everyone else. How 12/12 SOG from seed can be faster, cheaper and better then from clone. Man that will be cool, so let’s not argue about it. In my experiance it’s not, and untill I see otherwise. I’ll keep my right to stand by my own experiance, and hope that’s cool with you and everyone else.

I have nothing to prove, im just here to share experiance.

And nice looking plant, I can only see one pic.

Happy growing

[5o5love]

I think clones being sexually mature has a lot to do with production. Yes seeds ran 12/12 do a great job and I feel you can pull great yields in a SOG environment. That being said I think you need to take into account the sexual maturity of plants. Recently I have been part of rather large phenohunts and what we have found is that if you take the seeds to sexual maturity before flowering intersex traits seem to go down drastically. Clones from immature seed plants that showed intersex traits were then allowed to veg to sexual maturity. After vegging to sexual maturity these plants stopped showing intersex traits in flower. I know if you run stable seeds this does not matter but if sexual maturity effects intersex traits and node development maybe it also has something to do with flower/resin production.

[McMuffin]

@Fuel

Anyway, soon i will document in depth what is a SOG from seeds and from clones.

Please do! I’m not the only one that wants to learn everything about this method.

[Fuel]

In a first time, i think than the more important is to show the development of what is a SOG (from clone or from seeds) and how to recognize it in ease. To clear the forest of hypothesis, but also to show in details the real constraints than it involve. And let people interested by it to balance themselves with the advantages of this method, in all objectivity.

Now, I’ve answered you in depth about my real experience on both options about the weed production. Which tend in favor of the clones, specially for large scale op. And i have explained why in bonus ^^ So, put your fatty down, read again my answers and tada … you will see than i was saying than you was right on it. Even if you look to don’t expect anything but the reverse, i’m sorry for that. Rationality sometimes cement opposite people.

I disagree only on : the use of the GPW to evaluate the costs per gram, to say than harvesting motherplants planned for SOG (than is a high turn over method) cost nothing and on the necessity to veg a clone or a seed to get a better weed.

Fortunately, we can have a (nice) polemic on another thread on twos of these three point of view. The last one can be only debated with the buds on the table and a decent jury, better to ignore it in term of logistic for the moment.

And yes, it’s exactly the point of the thread : sharing initially our real experience about the “12/12 from seed to harvest” in all integrity. To show than you grow like you want and than you don’t give a fck, we all have grow logs for that right ? ^^

My only problem is biased exchanges on a method than is finally very bad known today, not you lol

But damn guys, do you think seriously than dutch cofeeshops are not mainly furnished by SOG op for the inherent advantage than it mean in term of productivity per year ? And i don’t speak about surimposed spaces in term of productivity per sqm ^^ I known … and it see it coming lol : “they all sell bad weed and i have better at home”. So, OG cup 2019 and let’s beat the ass of the dampkring !!! lol I’m in !

I don’t have wired my pollen box today, just lurked and chilled in OG ^^ fck

[cannabissequoia]

I’m guessing that SOG sea of green, screen of green was an adaptation to the common indoor environment (of it’s day).

When it’s business, it’s math, maximization, etc…“valley” forms/shapes…

(that weird rotisserie grow-pod…)

When it’s for personal use, all that capitalist efficiency non-sense doesn’t matter.

(NorCal Redwood Trees with Pineapples)

With that in mind… It seems that SOG eliminates any non-budding canopy space, logically.

Great honest debate - no throwing!

well maybe a little

[McMuffin]

@Fuel

So, OG cup 2019 and let’s beat the ass of the dampkring !!! lol I’m in !

I very much like the idea of an OG Cup! I think that the “noobs” and “novices” here could really surprise themselves and others with what they are actually capable of, especially with all the knowledge and experience available to everybody here.

[SpeesCees]

@Palindrome

I am not selling anything, this is just my experiance.
Others will have other experiance I am sure, and that’s not a problem for me.

Im sharing my experiance, in how you will make the most for less in less time.
If some can use it, use it, if not feel free not to

Cheers ya’ll

If that clones are pure Indica’s… then I’m a dog !

SpeesCees