Adventures in Hydro #2 - LP Aero/NFT mash-up - or - switching to HPA?

Ahh, yes. Well it’s true. MES free acid it is an acid. More specifically a weak acid. And, sure you could use it as a PH down. Add it to water, and it will partially disassociate driving the PH. But, this is where we start to loose sight of the point of a buffer. A buffer only works within certain ranges tied to the pKa(s). And, to get near the pKa (buffering regions) you add or produce the conjugate base. Initially, with MES acid in pure water, there is no conjugate and it is not a buffer yet. Within the buffering region is where the magic happens. Once you are in that region, other mechanisms will cause PH to move, the buffer will resist those changes.

They, the calculator, creates the conjugate by using NaOH. We use KOH for hydro to avoid adding sodium. Both are strong bases and both create the conjugate. p.s. a weak base would work as well but the outcome is something not necessarily easily predicted. You might notice that many of the buffer calculators limit the range of the PH for a particular chemistry. This is because for a PH outside of that range (based on the pKa(s)), it is no longer considered a buffer (the chemistry is either deprotenated / protenated). The further away from the pKa, the weaker the buffer action becomes.

It’s not easy to decouple how one thinks of the buffer from the routine PH up/down adjustment / drift / etc. The intuitive feel simply is not there.

In the end, it boils down to everything being inter-related one way or another. We are just moving H+ and OH- ions around. But, not differentiating the actors makes it easy to miss the trees through the forest :grin:

Yes, that is what should occur.

Yes, precisely the same thing is going on the chemistry in the cal buffers. The PH is adjusted to the calibration value using a weak acid / conjugate such that it is within the buffering region. The PH overtime can change due to CO2 entering solution, contamination, etc but the buffer will resist a change in the PH. Due to those reasons, the PH will change and is the reason they have expiration dates and is also why they tell you to dispose of any used calibration solution. It isn’t changing because of the buffer components.

I did read somewhere that you are supposed to PH adjust those beads prior to application. Soaking them in a PH adjusted solution perhaps. As to capacity, that’s an interesting question. I’d venture to guess that it would look similar to how a chemical buffer would act with the PH slowly changing as they absorb H+/OH-. Wouldn’t mind getting my hands on some to test.

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Thats very true. Trying to get this all straight - and keep it straight - makes me feel like one of those tree fell on my head :smiley:

Yeah, that is also how the resin gets “rejuvenated” so you can re-use the resin. Just rinse well, then soak in low PH acid solution for a while. I still have not heard back from Dupont, so dont now what resin to buy yet. There are sources for the Amberlite CG50, but I want to see what the newer version costs and try to find some with larger particle sizes. That will make filtering and handling easier I think.

Here is my plan for the MES. Let me know if anything sounds off.

Im going to take 50 gms of MES and dissolve it in 3 liters of RO water. That should give me a 0.0853M solution of MES.

Then if I mix 10 ml of that solution to one liter of RO water, that will give me a 0.000853M or .85mM final concentration in the rez. I can easily just add more or less to adjust, but I think I will start with that and see how it does.

Im thinking this should be done in this order.

Start with just RO water.
Add the MES solution I made, and mix well.
Add KOH to raise PH to what ever I want. Im going to start at 5.5 - anticipating a rising PH
Then add nutes, mix well - starting with CalMag.
Then adjust PH using Phosphoric acid or more KOH as needed. Im guessing I will need more KOH. My CalMag and the nutes both lower PH when first added.

I just realized that I may be close to harvest. The C99 says it takes 50 to 60 days of flower time, and Im on day 42, so I may be ready by next week! I kind of doubt that. Most of the trichs are cloudy, but very few are amber so far. Plus most of the calyxes are still very white.

HPA is supposed to finish sooner than regular hydro, so I guess we will see how this goes.

The MES will be here early next week. Im going to take the accumulator tank out and clean it as best I can and replace/clean the rez and some of the pipes before the MES gets here. I want to see if that alone makes any difference.

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It is for me now you have posted in this thread, thanks for this. It has helped me a lot.

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I verified this as the following with the M.Wt of MES at 215.3g/mol:

~54.5g into 3 liters for a 85.4mM solution.
Dilute 1:100 for 0.854mM.
Adjust to target PH with KOH

This will be about 1/5 as strong as the 5mMol titration. I’ll see about doing a titration at this concentration.

DOW also produces ion-exchange resins, as well. There is also purolite brand. I have no clue as to how to select a proper resin.

I went ahead and ordered 100g of Amberlite CG-50 via fisher. Though, their website is very screwy and we’ll see if they actually fulfill the order.

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Awesome!

I need to go back and look, but did you try a combo with MES mixed with Mega Crop yet? It would be interesting to see what that curve looks like compared to the tow separately.

I am very eager to see how that turns out! Thats the fine powder form - 75 to 150 μm particle sizes. Have you thought about how you’re going to test it?

I need to go check, but I think it was Dow I emailed…

Each of the titrations have been performed with MC at a relatively high EC. All of the graphs are in the OP (first post), look for the (3) MES graph then scroll towards the end to see the transfer function equations. FYI, this is MES hydrate which has a slightly lower M.Wt than the monohydrate due to added water. Same thing otherwise.

Probably the same way, titration.

edit:

I quickly did a titration and added it to the plot in the buffer thread OP. At ~0.000854M MES free acid, you’ll see a transfer function of y=~2.240x+b at the MC EC of 1.7. In comparison, straight MC (v1) has a transfer function of y=2.99x+b while the .005M citrate buffer has a transfer function of 2.68X +b. See the other transfer functions for comparisions in that thread…

Zoomed:

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Ah, thanks. My memory is getting worse. I should have just looked again before asking!

I love the new data, formulas etc. I asked in the other thread about comparing the slopes and using that ratio to predict how much change in the rate of PH rise to expect at different concentrations of MES.

I need more thanks to give!

Ive been busy the last few days. We have been having a relatively warm winter, but that changed last week and this week with a ton (for us) of snow. You folks who have real winters will laugh, but 2" around here freaks everyone out, and we are supposed to get as much as 8" in some places :smiley: My granddaughter and I love it, but she gets to stay home from school and I dont work :slight_smile:

In between all the prep for the snowmagedon event, I managed to get a bunch done on the system:

  1. re-plumb the accumulator tank so it sits vertically,
  2. cleaned the accumulator tank a little bit. I didnt have time to do as good a job as I wanted, but I did get a good (bad) bit of nasty looking gunk out of it. It was brown and like thick oil and smelled nasty.
  3. I replace most of the plumbing inside, and between the rez and the main pump.
  4. I did a much better cleaning job on the rez.

As a result of all that - its clear my system is infected with nasty brown gunk/algae/slime/crap of some sort. It also seems very certain that that gunk is at least partially responsible for the PH rising. I am quite certain this is the main issue in the rez.

After cleaning the rez and replacing the most of the plumbing, and cleaning the rest as best I can, I did a new mix of AN nutes and RO water plus some CalMag. I did it to the same concentrations I did before, EC 1.0.

After that, the rez was holding PH longer than it did before the cleaning. The accumulator tank did better - actually much better, for about 4 hours or at least 4 times as long. It was steady at 0.1 higher than the rez, as compared to .5 higher before, but after 4-5 hours, the PH started going back up.

That got me to doing some other testing and checking.

First - It seems like if there is ANY air trapped in the hi-pressure parts of the system, that forces the PH up even faster. It want to stay up as long as that air is still there. I can tell because the water wants to fizz up when first drawn from the hi-pressure parts of the system. If there is fizz, then the PH is higher than if no fizz.

I did some testing in several places in the system and if there is air trapped in a filter, the PH is lower before the filter, and higher after the filter. Once I purge all the air, its reads the same on both sides.

Evey once in a while, I see this fuzzy water when I draw it from the accumulator tank - but not every time. If the bladder was leaking, it should happen every time. Plus Ive checked and I get no water out of the schrader valve, so Im pretty sure the bladder is not leaking.

So - where is that air coming from? Yesterday, I noticed a bunch of bubbles forming inside a mason jar of fresh RO water I had just drawn - lots and lots of bubbles. I am now thinking that when I re-fill the rez with fresh RO water, I must not be allowing enough time for the cold RO water to equalize and its outgassing after it gets into the tank and warms up. When that fresh, cold water gets compressed, it must be super saturating the water - driving the PH up.

That combined with the gunk is causing the drastic PH rise when the nutes get compressed.

The bottom line seems to be the gunk though.

Earlier today I did a second flush of the accumulator tank. When I “cleaned” it earlier, I connected it to my tap water through some hoses and valves so I could fill it with water, then drain it quickly, then re-fill and repeat. During the first fill, I put some dishware detergent inside the fitting before filling. The I let that sit for abit and started the flushing cycles.

But my house water pressure is only about 50 PSI, and the tank is per-presurized with 80 PSI of air on the bladder. That means I was not able to fully stretch the bladder or fill the tank very full at all. The bladder is textured or quilted or folder in some way. It looks to me like it has a million folds that can trap gunk and the tank would need to be filled almost full to stretch it out.

So, early today I filled it up to 135PSI with nute water and drained it a few times until the rez was empty. I got quite a bit more gunk out this time. Then I re-filled the system and spent some time trying to purge all the air out. Before the next grow, Im going to add more places to bleed air out, and try to eliminate places air can get trapped, to make it easier.

After all that, I re-filled the system. This time the rez and tank stayed about 0.1 PH apart for almost 6 hours instead of the 4 hours from before.

Now that the water in the tank has warmed up, it is somewhat fizzy again, and the tank PH is reading 5.9 while the rez is at 5.4 - back to the 0.5 PH difference.

BUT - here is the problem with all that thinking. Compressing extra C02 into the water SHOULD drive the PH DOWN - not up! One detail that supports that is the fact that the PH goes UP even more after the pressurized water sits long enough for the fizz to go away.

So, once again I seem to have results that are contradictory.

The one thing Im certain of is my system is contaminated. Im gong to have to address that no matter what - and it is probably the key issue in one way or another.

Im close to finishing this grow, so super cleaning will have to wait. Im just hoping I dont have to replace too much of the system. The 1/4" tubing and fittings are cheap, the accumulator tank, pumps and other parts are not.

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I keep forgetting to mention one other interesting thing I noticed while I was cleaning the accumulator tank.

While cleaning the rez, the roots still got sprayed at the same intervals they have been getting - so no stress from lack of water. The accumulator tank holds enough water to run for maybe 2 days even if the rez is empty. So taking the rez out of the system for cleaning or working on it is no problem.

Removing the accumulator tank stops the watering, so I had to hurry. It took me maybe 2 or 3 hours total down time before I had the system back together and re-filled. Before I started, i changed the timing on the nozzles from the normal 0.9on/44off cycle to 10 seconds ON and 4 seconds off. I let that run for several minutes to saturate the root ball before I disconnected the tank.

The key point is, once I got everything back together and checked the plants, I saw that several of the colas had fallen over or were leaning badly. I could immediately tell the stems were soft and flexible. I propped the leaning stems up and waited. Within two hours, all the stems were getting nice and hard again and no more leaning.

So HPA systems seem to react the same way soil does - when they get thirsty, the stems get soft and flexible. One way to check if you are way under watering in HPA :slight_smile:

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I live right on Lake Superior and as I look out the window right now I have about 4’ of snow in the backyard. :slight_smile: I think we pick up 2" if I blink some times…

I noticed quite a bit of build up inside of my chiller when I was cleaning the other day. The lines were really clogged up and it took a good hour of hot water flushing through to really clean it all out. When I did my initial nozzle test I noticed after I emptied the system that what was left in the bucket was pretty nasty – so I assume my accumulator needs a good clean as well. Now that I have water in the room again and the RO is hooked back up I will get out there today and do a good flush of everything too. Hopefully my new filters + UV will keep this clear this time around…

I found this out the hard way myself. When I left for vacation at the end of my last run I had adjusted the timings up so I could do a res flush and then forgot to reset them after I was done. So the whole time I was gone I was spraying at 5m instead of 2m and when I got home the plants had started to fall over and the stems were super wimpy compared to how springy they were when I left. We used the yoyo’s to help them get to the end, but they just weren’t ever the same. (Starving for 2 weeks, ugh…)

I already warned the woman – no more planning vacations at the end of a cycle.

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Oh boy - what a day I am having. I sure hope the “interesting times” Ive been having today are over!

First - around noon I was checking PH and getting steep rising again in the accumulator tank and at the nozzles. So, I decided screw it Im killing this zombie algae crap or kill the plant trying I didnt much care which one.

So - I shut off the connection between the rez and the rest of the system, and then added a crap ton of pool shock, and let that circulate in the rez for about 45 minutes. It took almost that long to get the powder to dissolve.

Then, I drained the accumulator tank through a tap near the nozzles, and turned off the timers and solenoids - so the roots were not getting misted. I had pre-soaked them as before.

Then I filled the accumulator tank with the pool shock mix. I also let some of the solution feed into the rest of the system up to the solenoids and let it spray a few times. That was just to get chlorine into all the tubing and solenoids and nozzles. Then I spent the next hour draining the accumulator tank back into the rez and re-filling it, then drain again and repeat. The purpose of that was to exercise the bladder in the accumulator tank to get as much of the crud exposed to the chlorine and try to kill it and knock it loose if possible.

I did the final drain through a tap I added right before the solenoids to try and flush the rest of the tubing, etc. The last step was to drain the rez, and re fill with plain RO and flush everything again a few times. Finally, I drained and refilled and added nutes again and had it back up and running after about 2 hours total down time. That was long enough for the stems to get soft again, but nothing fell over this time.

I was half way through re-filling the accumulator tank with the fresh nutes when the power went out! That was 4PM and it was starting to get dark outside. It had not snowed much today, but we still have about 6" total. I know, I know - we are whimps, but that is a lot for us :slight_smile:

Anyway I wasnt too worried because our power has not been off for more than an hour in several years. But this kept going. I was spraying the roots by hand every 5 minutes or so, but thats a pain. I couldnt get on-line or get any news on my phone and txts were not going through. That made me think this mus be a wide spread outage rather than something local.

So, I decided to crank up the generator for some temp power - but - I couldnt find the dam 220 power cord to connect the generator to my main panel! I have a separate box I installed to run the house wiring from the generator and isolate it from the mains power - incase the power comes back on, Im not feeding power to the grid.

Anyway, I was going nuts trying to find that dam cord. Its only been 4 or 5 years since I last saw it, so it could be buried very deep. I took a break after I started getting angry and frustrated and decided to start the generator and let it warm up. Plus I could string a drop cord for some temporary lights to help look through the storage room. Of course, the dam thing wouldnt start! I almost ran the batter down, but it finally cranked over after I remembered to flip the choke! :scream: I tore the storage room apart and no cord. Then my wife asked me if I had by chance put it outside with the generator. I scoffed at her and said I would have seen it, plus I was sure I had put it away after the last time. She just gave me that look, so I went outside again, and there was the dam cord right next to the generator in a storage box with the funnel, extra gas, etc. My excuse is the box had some snow on the lid… Yeah, she didnt go for that either :smiley:

So, I finally get the generator running and power up the house and get the system running again. Four hours later, the power came back on and we are now toasty warm again :slight_smile:

But wait - there is more!!!

So, after a hot shower and popping one of my capsules, I finally had a chance to double check PH in the system. It had been about 6 hours since re-filling it.

The rez PH was at 5.4 and the accumulator tank was at 5.3!! WTF? I checked the tap at the nozzles and it was at 5.3 as well - plus it was a little fizzy.

Ive got my fingers crossed that this will hold for a while. If so, it means that the brown zombie algae slime crap has been driving the PH up pretty much all by itself.

This is the first time that the PH has been LOWER in the hi-pressure part of the system - other than maybe the first time I filled it. I am assuming that the reason is that some trapped air has raised the C02 concentration in the pressurized parts of the system, lowering the PH.

I dont know why the gunk was raising my PH, or why higher pressure made it go up even more, but it sure seems to be the primary cause.

I added some PH up and brought the rez to 5.6. It seemed like a bad idea to keep shooting the roots with 5.3 nutes. I will check the rest of the system in a couple of hours to see if this trend is continuing. I expect the PH to go up a bit once the air in the system gets absorbed. We will see…

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Its been almost 4 hours sense I adjusted the rez PH up to 5.6, and the rez is still at 5.6 and the tank is still at 5.6 and the nozzles are still at 5.6!!! wooooohooooo!! Looking good so far!!

The snow even stopped the mailman today - no MES and no mail at all. Im glad I bought the small sample of MES. I may not need it now…fingers crossed!!

LOL Ok, your,snow pack, is bigger :smiley:

I admit it. I live in a whimp location as far as snow accumulation, but thats ok. You can have all the snow you want and Im fine with that :slight_smile:

Hot water hasnt been working for me. It does loosen it up, but doesnt seem to kill it or really get it out or off a surface. Using powdered dishwasher detergent helped a bunch for cleaning filters, but I still have to scrub them with a brush.

Im hoping this super shock treatment killed the crap all the way dead this time. Im going to be adding a small amount of bleach every so often - for sure when I top off the rez. Im not sure the UV light kills this crap fast enough when first filling the tank.

The last parts of all my grows so far always seem to be the most stressful and take the most time. I manage to get away for a few days at a time early in the grow, but not late.

Im hoping - if I have finally found the solution to the PH problem - that future grows will be a LOT less stressful.

I have a new theory about the PH issues.

Two things have been consistent up to this point with the PH problem.

  1. any aeration in the rez made the PH go up. More aeration = faster PH rise.

  2. Putting the nute mix under pressure also made the PH go up. It went up even faster if there was trapped air in the system.

Im now wondering of its the same mechanism working in both situations.

What if aerating the rez made the PH go up because it was making or letting the zombie crap grow faster? That faster growth equaling faster PH rise for what ever reason.

The same mechanism may have been happening in the pressurized parts of the system. Any air trapped in the system would super saturate the solution, and maybe that was enough to make it grow faster the same way it did in the rez?

Thats the best thing I have been able to come up with so far. Actually, the only thing that even remotely fits the facts and seems vaguely plausable.

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Wow. Some good news on PH for a change. Im not sure how to act! :wink:

Its been 12 hours since I set the PH in the clean rez to 5.6… This morning all parts of the system are STILL AT 5.6!!!. Actually, I think the rez is starting to climb just a bit - it took the meter close to a full minute to stabilize at 5.6 and it was flickering to 5.7 for a good part of that time. I have been expecting that though - both Mega Crop and Advanced nutes both climb some even when sealed in a mason jar.

It occurred to me that there is another piece of ‘evidence’ in support of my theory on aerating zombie algae.

There have been several times when the rez was doing well and being somewhat stable, but when I drained some of the accumulator tank water back into the rez, it started to climb in PH again. This was very strong when the accumulator tank was climbing fast and not so much when it was stable. I am now thinking I was re-infecting the rez by dumping infested water from the accumulator tank back in.

Im considering adding a second UV light to the rez. I bought another one of those cheap UV lights to have as a spare because it seemed to be helping keep the PH stable in the rez. But Im wondering if it wasnt quite keeping up with re-infection.

Im going to wait and see how this goes and how lng the PH stays down, then decide. Im 90% sure Im going to keep up the low dose pool shock treatments, but I am hoping I wont have to.

The UV lights have the potential to cause iron issues, but the chlorine kills fuzzy hairs if its too strong - so I dont want to go over board on either if I can avoid it.

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Good to know. I’m headed out into the room shortly to do some more cleanup and install more goodies – perhaps I’ll change up and just do a few hours of flushing the accumulator. I guess I should bring in all of the John Guest fittings and soak them in a good strong solution for a bit before reinstallation.

Glad to hear you seem to be solving the ph issue! I’m getting much closer to starting back up now too, hopefully with a lot less problems this time around…

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Good to see the back of your mystery rising PH.

I have had to put my PH up to 6.0-6.2 in an attempt to get my plants to absorb Mg. When I did, the humidity increased so I am hoping that is a sign of healthier, more vigorous growth.

They have been at that PH for about 4 days so I am giving them 12 hours at 5.4-5.5 and then I will slowly ramp it up to 6.1-6.2 over 24 hours then let it sit there for a few days then repeat. Two cycles of that, which should take a couple of weeks, and I will refresh the tank.

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I am so relieved that the PH seems to be stable now. Im ‘rooting’ for you to have a great grow this time around :smiley:

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Interesting. Im glad you posted that. For some reason, I have been thinking that Mg was best absorbed at lower PH ranges in hydro - 5.5ish or so has always been what I have read from growers. But - I just looked at the chart again, and its actually much higher - 6.2 seems to be about optimum for a good balance of all nutes, but Mg likes it even higher.

In fact, looking closely at the chart, I dont see why anyone would want the PH to be as low as 5.5.

Iron, manganese, boron, copper all seem to be better at 5.5ish range, but all the others prefer higher ranges.

So, why have I been fighting so hard to get the PH down?

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I know I’ve said this before, but I really feel it’s about riding the drift. For me that was an upward drift so I always started at 5.5 then rode that until it was close to 6 then dropped it back down. It just happens that drift time was usually a week, so I only had to lower once then the next week it was res change time and I could reset it.

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That looks to be a soil chart. Have a look at the one @SuperiorBuds posted, it has both charts on and if you look at the hydro section, you will see that there isn’t really a single PH point that will provide all your plants need. At least not in the ratios that allow maximum growth anyway. It also shows the P and K lockout in hydro if you let your PH run too high. Also, as mentioned in one of your links a zinc deficiency can happen if you have too tight a grip on PH and don’t let it swing. N, P, K, and zinc all prefer 5.5 over 6, but Mg and Calcium prefer 6 over 5.5…

Years ago I used to run at 6.5, or slightly higher, and I never had any signs of deficiencies and the quality of the end product was very good. Since lowering my PH though, I have seen yields improve, still with no deficiencies or reduction of quality. Only since starting RO have I had any issues, and then it seems only with Mg. Yield and quality are still unaffected.

I have a growing suspicion that the form of Mg in the tap water is bioavailable over a wider PH range than the stuff I can buy in a bottle. I may start doing something I have heard from a few sources now, that being to put 10-50% (the number advised varies greatly) tap water in the tank when I fill it to have a background level of a wide spectrum micronutrient solution.

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