That may be to an advantage if you can get a charge onto the mist as it leaves the mist nozzle (may already be gaining some charge). The opposite of the balloon experiment, essentially. Keep everything else including the roots at ground potential.
The mist may want to coat everything, including the walls, but may be sufficient to also ensure any roots are coated as well.
P.s. I can see some pretty dangerous outcomes for those not familiar with how to safely handle applying charge to exposed materials, in particular, around moisture. So unless you have a background in electronics / electricity / physics, please resist the temptation to run such experiments until youâve had some time to research safe techniques. Not pointed at those commenting in this thread, as these are experience individuals, just applying a disclaimer. I am brought back to my high school days, but thatâs another storyâŚ
Yes. This is a perfect example of something that most people âshould not try at homeâ unless they are very knowledgeable on the subject.
I almost said âunless they are an expertâ - but then I remembered that old joke about an âexpertâ being an unknown drip under pressure⌠which is actually pretty appropriate in this case
Yup, thats the exact idea. Well it was at first. I did a little searching last night on the effects of static charge on plant growth and the results were all over the place.
There are a ton of people selling snake oil âelectric field generatorsâ or magnetic field generatorsâ of various types that are guaranteed to improve your plants growth. Some of them claiming that these are secrets handed down from the Mayans or piramids, or some other BS.
Then there are some Science Fair projects that talk about radial or parallel electric fields increasing growth up to 37%. No details on exactly what or how to generate a radial vrs parallel field.
Then there seems to be about an equal number of university studies that show mixed results - but the experimental techniques are all over the place.
One study suggested that it was âwell knownâ that currents applied to a plant that were above 0.00001 amps reduced growth rates and the health of the plant, but currents between that level and .00000001 amps increases growth rate and the health of the plant, but currents below that level did nothing.
So, it looks like current levels need to be kept very very low. I have no clue how to measure currents that low, so any testing will have to be purely empirical. That could be hard on the babies in the torture chamber
Anyway, after reading all that, I decided it might be safer if the plant could be isolated from the charge. I dont think thats going to be possible considering the conductive nature of the mist, but testing is the only way to be sure.
Im pretty sure that the mist will be charged. The question is will it be negative or positive. The Lenard Effect happens when droplets form as water falls through the air. The air breaks the water up into smaller and smaller drops as it falls. That shearing action is what creates the charge. From what I read, the smaller drops are negatively charged and the larger ones positively.
Something similar seems to happen when water is just flowing over any non-conductive surface - like plastic pipes, buckets, etc. A charge is generated. It some cases, that charge can be enough to mess up a PH meter.
Basically this is just like rubbing a balloon on your hair or a wool sweater.
In that video, the water is exiting a plastic bottle, then the stream get broken up as it goes through the air. Those two things will both be generating a charge on the water. Its enough for the static from the balloon to attract it quite strongly. Those droplets in that stream are a lot larger, and there for have a lot more mass, than any mist from a hi-pressure nozzle, so our HPA mist âshouldâ be easy to manipulate with static charges.
I think the trick is going to be doing that without electrocuting the roots.
If you could get the perfect balance and get the current flow to fall within that range of .00001 and .00000001 amps, then you might see double benefits.
You would âpowder coatâ the roots with the perfect size droplets. That should allow you to drastically lower the water flow. Right now Im sure at least 95% of the droplets that come out of the nozzles never touch a root. Thats all wasted. If you could get a higher % of drops actually hitting the roots that would be a huge increase in efficiency.
With the current in the âgood rangeâ, you might see additional growth and health in the plant. Potentially a large - over 30% - increase from some of those studies.
So, I see a lot of potential here - with a lot of risk too
Well, I tried a quick and dirty âstaticâ test to see if any droplets were attracted to a rubber bulb from a turkey baster. I dont have any balloons and couldnt find anything else handy that took any kind of static charge. The turkey bulb didnt work all that well, not much of a charge at all, but it did have some.
Results - not much. Its possible the bulb actually repelled the mist, but I could not be sure. If there was any difference, I couldnt really tell ither way.
I need to get some balloons, and find some wool, and try again.
Ive been running at 0.5 seconds ON for several days now and the plant likes it. I have been moving up from 35 seconds OFF to my current 44 seconds OFF. That seems to be just a bit too long an OFF cycle. Im seeing some browning and shriveled roots in a few places on one side of the root mass.
Over all, that general range of timing is working well. Im startting to see more fuzzies - even on the longer roots.
So, of course, my Cantleaveitaloneitis (or is it osis?) has kicked in hard. Im going to try a short test at .4 seconds ON and 31 seconds OFF and see how that does.
The theory is to try to create a more uniform environment by shorter On and OFF times.
As discussed in another, thread, Im also going to switch to 12/12 for a couple of days to see if I can get this victim to show sex. if it turns out to be a female, and if it survives my Messwithit Syndrome attacks, I may just keep it growing along side the C99 Im going to start soon.
Droplets of just H2O would be, but you are planning on doing this with a nutrient solution. Nutrients have differing charges.
One way some pure water plants remove elements from the water is with charged plates. They run it through a positively charged area, then a negatively charged one and each section pulls out different elements leaving the water purer as a result.
In this image, they are the anion and cation towers (purple and pink)
Selectively removing elements from your nutrient solution does not sound desired to me
As always, I will be interested in the results of your experiment.
I will be very interested to see the comparison between a very advanced HPA system and a very basic LITFA hempy system. That was a dramatic root growth you got in a day once you had your PH closer to the values you need.
This takes me back to my days of growing shrooms. Since contaminants are deadly to the growing spores you run a negative ion generator to maintain everything. The generator fills the greenhouse w/ negative ions, while you positively charge the outer shell. The result is all of the bad stuff sticks to the outside, and the shrooms get a perfectly clean growing space.
At one point I stopped growing and just moved the generator into the living room. We were amazed by how much crap the little baby generator was able to pull from the air. Smoke, dust, all sorts of gunk caked up the positive shell within hours.
Not sure if that helps, but it might be something to look at with these new static experiments youâre doing.
Thats true, and a potential concern. Especially if I have significant currents flowing through the nute solution. Im hoping to keep the current flow low enough to avoid that problem. I suspect that hi enough current to mess with the ion concentrations would also be hi enough to kill or seriously damage the plants.
However, I think there are two very different types of âionizationâ going on here.
The ionization you mention that they use in water purification occurs when salts get dissolved in water. The molecules break down into cations and anions - positively and negatively charged ions of the salt. However, that action does not change the over all charge of the water. You always end up with the same net or total charge in the solution before and after the salt is dissolved. Thats because the same number of anions and cations are created in the solution, so the total charge never changes and is always balanced. So, I dont think having nutes in the water will have any effect on how the droplets react to static - maybe
The charge thats created when the water shears into smaller droplets is very different. This is much like the balloon and wool, or Van der Graaff generator static effect. Electrons are stripped from some droplets and added to other droplets as they are sheared apart. That will leave some droplets positively charged and some negatively charged. According to the Lenard Effect, the smaller droplets are negative and the larger are positive.
The same thing seems to happen when water flows over any non-conductive surface - like through a plastic pipe or circulating in a rez. The difference there being that ALL of the liquid water will have the same charge and the plastic will have the opposite charge.
By the way, I have been seeing evidence of that second effect for quite some time now without realizing what it was. It seems to be a real thing that actually does effect the PH measurements using my hand held meter. If I measure the PH in my rez after the pump (300 GPH circulating) is off for a while, it might read 5.8. If I turn the pump ON and let it run, it takes maybe 30 seconds for the PH to start dropping, and it will drop to 5.7. If I wait long enough, with the pump running, it might drop to 5.6 or even 5.5 after just a minute or so. Turn the pump OFF and after a short time, it goes back to 5.8.
Anyway, back to electrocuting my plants⌠I think there will be both types of âshear staticâ generated in my root chamber. First, the water is flowing through plastic pipes before it reaches the nozzles. Then, as it passes through the nozzles, Im sure it will also generate an additional charge, but the nozzles are metal, so I wonder if it will be the same or the opposite charge from the pipes? Finally, as the water breaks down into the micro droplets, the Lenard Effect will take over giving the smaller droplets a negative charge and the larger ones a positive charge.
What the final charge on the droplets is going to be - if any - is still up in the air. I need a better way to generate static and/or a very low power, DC, hi-voltage supply to do some more tests. The plan is to stick the balloon in the upper part of the root chamber, and compare how wet the balloon gets when its charged vrs when its not charged.
Next time I go to the store I will be picking up some balloons
Im real curious about that too. The primary question being - is the extra cost and trouble of an HPA system really worth it? I have to say, Im 99.99% sure that if you compare grams yield/dollar/time/trouble, that its NOT worth it
Just from a pure $$ point of view, a hempy bucket costs maybe $20 to set up at most. All you need is a bucket and some perlite. Even if I dont count all the stuff I bought that didnt work or got returned or tossed out, Im still into this well over $300. Im pretty sure Im not going to yield 15 times as much as a simple hempy bucket. Time investment wise, its even worse I think. This is not a technique to use if you just want more yield/dollar or yield/hour spent.
It remains to be seen if its worth it as far as more yield per square foot or per plant.
I think this HPA stuff is going to remain a small niche for those few growers - like me - who get bored easily, cant resist using hi tech when a low tech way works almost as well, needs to constantly mess with stuff, is alergic to LITFA, etc.
I thought that was pretty awesome too. Its slowed down a bunch after that one day, but it looks like it may be picking back up again with these shorter on/off times. Im taking pics several times a day and working on a time lapse video or GIF. When I get enough to make it worth looking at, I will post it up.
That does help, or at least gives me more reason to try it out. Im going to have to look up those negative ion generators to see how they work. I wonder if one would survive inside a root chamber?
Objectives. Akin to buying a scientific PH meter when one could get an Amazon special for $10. Both do the same thing and are probably accurate enough for general use. But, with one of them, you can discern changes that the other could not.
Some of what is going on here with Larryâs, ahemâŚexperimentitis, is approaching the area of innovation and pushing on boundaries. Which always starts out being more complicated and more expensive than alternatives. False starts, set-backs, wrong direction all expensive. At least initially. It may not be immediately obvious but if only a couple of insights are revealed, itâs worth itâs weight in gold. In the event there are some compelling improvements or contradictions to our knowledge, then consider opportunities to further discuss, simplify, and optimize.
As a community, weâve already learned quite a few things from your on-going experimentsâŚ
The one I had back in the day was outside of the mushroom greenhouse with a small tip that could be fed through the plastic â so I assume something like that would work for us w/ the root chambers.
When I initially thought of this I was trying to adapt the way I used to use it to our HPA setups, but thinking further perhaps thereâs a better way. If you could flood the chamber with negative ions and charge the outside negatively as well, the only neutral/positive charge would be the roots themselves â it just might have the desired effect. Damn you, now you got my crazy brain going tooâŚ
This very question is what I was trying to answer w/ my setup. Iâve worked hard to keep costs low, parts easy to source, and have a scalable system with repeatable results. This run I was able to nearly double my yield from the DWC with the exact same genetics and lighting. Not quite enough to justify things, especially since I had to do a LOT of tweaking, just like @anon32470837. I am changing a few more things this next run, but I need a good harvest w/ no problems in order to really determine if itâs worth changing over the big grow or not. Either way, I still really enjoyed everything I learned from the HPA setup and at the very least I can transition it over to an automated foliar spray setup.
Thanks for that! Sometimes I wonder if maybe Im the only one who is really into this kind of geeky, nerdy, experimenting, messing around with tech stuff. This is the kind of stuff that gets me out of bed in the morning and keeps me up way too late
and
Those are both very good points. I was just looking at the initial out of pocket cost, but thats not a good way to judge the true value. Once you have the kinks worked out, and get a stable, working system setup, then different economics take over. After that point, its a matter of routine costs - nutes, maintenance, replacement parts as they wear out etc.
Its pretty clear to me that you can save money on nutes with an HPA setup - once its dialed in. Other costs are going to be similar to other hydro techniques as far as maintenance, and parts replacements. With DWC you have various pumps, air stones that will need periodic replacement, and with HPA its going to be nozzles and pumps. I suspect HPA will trend a bit higher, but maybe the nute savings will offset that. I think it will be fairly close on long term costs though. Well, not counting hempy buckets. Nothing will ever be cheaper than that
I think that once you get things dialed in, you can also cut way back on the time it takes every day. I had no issues being gone 5 days. In fact, the darn plants never did better!
If you can double your yield, and have things dialed in so you dont have to fiddle with something every other hour, thats a big deal. That would be well worth it I think.
Plus there is the boredom factor. I think I would go crazy growing in hempy buckets. Id be trying to automate them, add all kinds of sensors, and other crap just to keep from going crazy. They would end up costing me almost as much as this has!
I am enjoying this so much, I would do it even if no one else gave a crap, but it really helps to know that, so thanks!!
I may have just found and eliminated another problem with the system. Iâll know in a day or so I think.
I have been worried about the browning and tip die off in the upper part of the roots, just below the net pot. I had thought that it was caused by lack of mist hitting those areas. The top of the chamber gets less mist, and is the first to âdry outâ or have the mist disappear as it settles to the bottom. So, it makes sense that those roots will be the driest.
But looking closely at the pics, there were water droplets accumulating at the top. That tells me they were getting more than enough water.
Then I remembered reading somewhere that air leaks in the chamber would cause browning and air pruning of the roots. After looking closely at the pics, I think thats what has been going on. The worst area is right near where I have my access hatch cut into the top. It was a tight fit at first, but the foam has gotten compressed from repeated in/out cycles. I had seen light gaps when taking pics inside the chamber earlier, and I added a cover over the whole thing to block the light, but it is not air tight, so Im sure air was also getting through.
So, I went back and taped over the entire access hatch. I can remove the tape if I need to get in for maintenance. I can still take pics through the access hatch I added to the side of the root chamber. That one is well sealed I think. I also taped over the net pot itself, and the other two holes I had in the top, and taped over all the seams in the white plastic covering, and anywhere else air might be getting in.
Next grow cycle, Im going to have to come up with an access hatch that is both air and light tight, and easy to open.
If that was the problem, I should see good changes in a day or so.
Good catch. Iâm reworking my lids now as well. Weâre adding weather stripping along the top of the tubs, we were doing it to ensure no light leaks but it should also be pretty damn airtight when weâre done.
Just thinking out loud here, but are you sure you want your tubs 100% air tight?
You need some fresh air exchange in the chamber to help aerate the droplets, plus the roots need O2.
Atomizer talked about that at one point. When he was using air tight, rigid foam to build chambers, they needed a way for air to get in and out. He said it was typically the drain pipe, and leaks around the net pot that provided the air exchange, but that those same air leaks around the net pot could cause air pruning of the roots. The air flow being too concentrated, and drying out the roots locally.
He switched to the fabric chambers partly for better air flow that didnt cause air pruning, and partly for the evaporative cooling effect. The fabric pots Im using let air through easily, and you can see light through the fabric. Thats why I had to build a light shield around the chamber from rigid foam. The cooling works so well, I had to put a heater inside to keep the temps up in a good range. I left small openings in the rigid foam light shield so air could get in/out, but made sure they were in places where there was no light - the back of the area under my work bench.
Your tubs would be the equivalent to a soil grow with a solid plastic pot to grow in vrs an air pot or fabric pot. One lets the roots get plenty of O2 and one doesnt.
I thought this was interesting. This is a GIF of the last 48 hours. I was particularly surprised by the amount of length added by some of the single long roots that are heading down. Also of interest, if you look closely at the middle section of the roots, you can see the lateral root hairs really spreading out sideways while new ones pop out on the same root working their way down from the top.
I wish I had a good way to hold the camera in the same exact spot, angle, etc each time I took a pic. That would work so much better for this.
The reason for so many pics over the last two days is Im down to .4 seconds of ON time. I started at 30 seconds OFF, and Im working my way up to longer off times, one second at a time. Im up to 36 seconds of off time and the roots still look good. The brown areas dont seem to be growing any more since I sealed up all the air leaks I could find, so Im going to continue to increase OFF times for a while longer.
At these timing levels, there is still a LOT of mist hanging in the chamber from the middle of the root mass on down when the next pulse hits, so they are in a constant mist environment. That should be goodâŚ
Im real curious about what the roots will do once they reach the bottom. Im going to have to do something about my drain to keep it from getting plugged up.
I have the same problem. I have had to direct the water flow so that it goes in a circle in my tank away from the pumps because I always end up with about 4ft of root in my tank. this is after it went along 3tf of guttering, down 2ft of downpipe and another foot of pipe.
This is two weeks after putting the plant in with 4-inch roots. You can see about a foot of root out of the end of the right hand pipe.
