Adventures in Hydro #2 - LP Aero/NFT mash-up - or - switching to HPA?

[anon32470837]

@HappyHemper

I’ve been waiting for this update, thanks for posting!

Seems that there is way less brown stuff than in the last plant, right? So the shock, however detrimental to the development of the plant, did kill some brown stuff.

Just thought I’d mention - my algae in the perilite of the northern lights in coco that I fed from the infected rez went away. I did not do anything to it - I guess not wet enough.

But how can it grow in an entirely dark chamber ja beyond me. The fucker is photosynthetic, and really small, how does it get enough?

Yeah, the pool shock did help, but at a cost.

Interesting info about your going away on its own. Dont know what to make of that though. I cant exactly dry out the root chamber

Good question about how they survive with no light, but that reminds me of something else I read recently that I forgot to mention. Apparently, this brown/mustard algae crap can already be in your well water. So, that sounds like it can do just fine with no light?

In any case, I suspect my well water does have this crap in it. I cant imagine how else it got back in there after the super sterilization I did on the system. Or, maybe its floating around in the air, or I get some on my hands when Im outside or?

Im hoping the new copper deadly nuclear waste toxic poison potion kills this stuff - and leaves the plant in decent shape.

I still have some hope. So far, the brown crap has not actually killed any of my plants. It does cause a lot of stress, but maybe I can still get a harvest of some sort.

[MicroDoser]

At times like these, I always remember that we do not live in a world that follows the rules of magic (just run with it, it makes sense).

As such, organisms and diseases cannot just spontaneously appear. They have to have evolved over time and be present somewhere to infect a plant or animal. In the same way that just being cold will not magically create a cold virus out of thin air to infect you and make you stay in bed for a week with the flu. So, you become susceptible to something already existing in the environment.

Somewhere, somehow, there is a reinfection vector in your environment. A lot of the time it is pieces of kit, other times it is the room, and more rarely it is bought items or your water supply.

With a reinfection vector, there are strict limits on how effective any treatment will be. You may find your efforts better spent removing that vector than constantly dealing with the symptoms of it.

If you get your water from a well I suspect that the most. If that is the case then no matter how strongly you disinfect, you will be reinfected as soon as the steriliser is weak enough for plants to grow properly. It is a no-win scenario unless you stop the reinfection at the source.

Have you considered going RO for your HPA?

[anon32470837]

@sk1

Perpaps they found something that eats them.
The only thing that got me rid of nasties at my DWC once and for all was bennies. So try I keep a healthy environment for them.

Ive tried spraying concentrated bennies directly on the roots and also putting them in the rez with zero results. From what I have read, the bennies are killed when sprayed through a hi-pressure system. On top of that, it seems like algae isnt one of the things they eat - at least not this type.

@MicroDoser

As such, organisms and diseases cannot just spontaneously appear.

@MicroDoser

If you get your water from a well I suspect that the most. If that is the case then no matter how strongly you disinfect, you will be reinfected as soon as the steriliser is weak enough for plants to grow properly. It is a no-win scenario unless you stop the reinfection at the source.

Have you considered going RO for your HPA?

Very good points. I am also starting to think that its my well water that is the source. Over the last two days, the brown crap has taken off again. Thats with me keeping the rez at somewhere between 2 and 4 PPM of chlorine. The heavy dose of pool shock seems like it is slowing it down, but not killing it. I dont see much point in trying more shock at higher doses. Im sure that will just kill the plant by the time I get the dosage hi enough to kill the algae.

So… time to start the toxic copper trials. The chelated copper algaecide I linked to above arrived today.

The bottle recommends an initial dose of 2 oz/5000 gals of water for an infected pool. You are supposed to let that circulate for at least 24 hours.

I wanted to dunk the roots and net pot in a small container that is a bit smaller than 5000 gallons, so I had to figure out how to get a small enough amount into aprox 1 liter of water. Google says one drop is .05 ML. One drop is the smallest quantity I can measure, so thats what I started with.

2oz/5000 gallons = 59ml/5000 gal = .0118 ml/gal. Thats a little less than 1/5 of a drop, which is hard to measure. Since I was only wanting to leave the roots in the solution for a few minutes, I decided to go more than the recommended dose. So I put 1 drop in 1/2 gallon of water. Thats about 8.4 times as the recommended strength.

When I pulled the roots out, there was a lot of brown. It doesnt show up all that well in the pics. I decided to cut off all the really bad parts. That was maybe 15% of the root mass. Then I dunked it in the solution for aprox 5 minutes and put it back in the root chamber. I let the normal nute solution continue to spray while I mixed up a batch for the rez.

For the rez, I added 2 drops into aprox 12 gallons of nute mix. That should have worked out close to the recommended maintenance dose on the bottle. That recommended maintenance strength is 1 oz/5000 gallons or 1/2 the initial strength.

I tested the copper concentration of the concentrated dunking solution, and it was somewhere beyond 1 PPM. Thats the max the test kit can read. The rez tested out to somewhere between .05 and 0.1 PPM as near as I can interpret the colors.

I am tempted to up the concentration in the rez to the higher level, but Im going to wait and see how the plant and roots respond. If the plant hasnt had toooo bad a negative response by tomorrow mid day, I will do a second dunk in the stronger stuff.

By the time I started this process, the plant had already entered its evening droop time, so I cant really tell any effects yet. I will be checking every hour or so until lights out, and then in the morning.

I’ll post results tomorrow.

[anon32470837]

@MicroDoser

Have you considered going RO for your HPA?

Forgot to reply to this.

I thought about installing an RO system last spring, but I decided not to do it. My well water comes out at between 80-100 PPM most of the time, so I decided it wasnt necessary. Plus its going to be a lot of trouble plumbing it in. My grow room is not in a good location to run water lines too without crawling under the house - which I am not really willing to do. Im too old and too out of shape to make that any fun at all

But, now that you have brought it up, Im re-thinking that. Do you think an RO filter would take out the algae? I have no idea how large the spores would be.

If I dont run lines to the grow room, that means a large holding tank in another part of the house. I’ll have to think how and where I can do that. There is also the cost issue. I really dont have the money in the grow budget at the moment.

This toxic copper stuff better work.

[sk1]

@anon32470837

Ive tried spraying concentrated bennies directly on the roots

But how much time you gave for the bennies to colonize and start to do the job ?
I am not sure if the aero roots are a good medium for them to colonize, never saw anyone doing bennies with aero.
DWC is realy easy once you have a large root mass.

Here are my roots, you can see the pythium starting to infect the roots:

Then some weeks later:

It works, take some time, but our environments are not the same. The “good” news is that the place where the nasties where all happy eating stuff is actually above water.

Also, bennies + chlorine (or toxic stuff) dont really mix

[MicroDoser]

@anon32470837

Do you think an RO filter would take out the algae?

Yes I do think that. It can remove chlorine and other elements dissolved in the solution, Algae are quite a bit bigger than that AFAIK.

It would still mean, as you say, running pipework or having a holding tank and pump.

[SuperiorBuds]

I know none of this is fun Larry but I am grateful for the extensive way you’re trying to defeat this crap. I still am not sure if this is the same stuff that I battled during last run, but having a documented treatment plan of what didn’t work is just as valuable as what finally does.

Here’s hoping you can finally knock this stuff out man.

[anon32470837]

Thanks to all of you for the support and tips!!!

So far, I am seeing no bad effects of any kind from the copper treatment. This morning at lights ON, the plant was back to being all perky and the leaves were reaching for the lights again - just as every morning.

So, I did another 5 minute dunk in the super strong stuff early, and then just now. This morning I also doubled the copper strength in the rez. That brings it up to the full recommended dose for treating an infected pool. I havent checked the PPM’s yet - been to busy getting ready for tomorrow, but I will report back when I do.

[anon32470837]

Finally got a break from holiday prep work. The copper is now up from the initial level to 0.15 PPM in the rez as near as I can tell with the test kit.

I did one more 5 minute dunk about 8 PM, just as the evening leaf droop was starting. Hard to tell if the droop is worse than normal or not, but I think that will be the last dunk for a while.

[Palindrome]

About BB culture dieing in aeroponics, try to add a aquarium bio filter for your reservior.

I use bio sponges in my reservior, as they will house the BB culture and keep seeding the res.
One is placed at the return, so my returning water flows thru it going back to the res.
A 2nd larger one is submerged, held in place by the feed pump.

Also had these kinda filters in my 1000 Gal Aeroponic reserviors, just bigger, and I was able to only change res once during 10 weeks flowering. (not incl flush)

[anon32470837]

Heading out the door to be with family, but took time for a quick look at the baby. Holy cow! Its decided to grow!

Wish I knew for sure if it was the copper or if this is normal for this strain, but I started the copper on tues evening with one dunk and normal strength in the rez. Wed AM, I doubled the strength in the rez and did four dunks total over the day. It looked like it had grown some over Wed, but not much. This morning it looks like it has almost doubled in height!

More later if Im not toooooo stuffed and sleeeeepy

[anon32470837]

Sorry for not posting an up-date sooner. Ive been fighting holiday kidney stones and taking extra post turkey naps.

Anyway, I wish I could be certain about the reasons and causes of any of this, but things have been changing dramatically since I started the copper - mostly for the good - mostly.

The roots and the plant have both grown dramatically over the last few days - AND - I have fuzzy roots again!!! Well, some of them anyway. Its actually starting to get close to the same fuzzy level I had with the last plant before the brown death plague took over.

As far as the brown crap, its still there, and it may even still be spreading. I just cant tell for sure if its the brown crap or air pruning or ???

I have done two more dunks - one on Thursday, and one yesterday. I wont be able to do any more as the roots are spreading out too wide ad I dont want to damage them removing the net pot.

When I got up friday AM and looked at the thrusday pics, I saw some fuzzy roots, so I looked closer and took some new pics. Sure enough there were more fuzzies. The plant looked great and had grown a LOT. Also, the brwon crap was still there and may even have spread some. Since there was no sign of damage from the copper, I decided to try a higher dose in the rez when I did a top off. I was shooting to go from 0.15 to 0.2 PPM, but I mis-judged the drops and the amount of water I was adding, so the new copper level is now a bit more than 0.3 PPM.

That level doesnt seem to be hurting anything after 24 hours, so Im leaving it there for now because the fuzzies are getting better every day.

The only negative sign Ive seen so far is a slight burning of the leaf tips that just started showing up on the new leaves.

That has me wondering why it started now? Ive been running at the same EC level for quite some time EC = 0.9 or so. I had increased a while back because the leaves looked a little pale, but that was at least 7 days ago.

Is the tip burn due to the fuzzies being able to take up more nutes more efficiently? Or, is it due to all the excess copper now in the system? Or something else?

Im leaning towards it being the fuzzies taking up nutes better. I see no signs of copper toxicity, so I doubt the copper is causing the tip burn.

Here are some pics of the growth since I started the copper treatments. Again, I cant be certain its the copper doing this, but it sure isnt hurting. By the way, you cant really judge the root color in the pics as far as the browning. In the early pics it hardly shows up at all, but I changed the white balance so the newer pics make it really show up worse than it is.

Its hard to tell, but it almost doubled in height.

This is the roots before starting the copper.

This is after trimming off a bunch of brown and the first dunking in hi strength copper.

This is the roots today.

As you can see, tons of growth, but the brown seems to be growing with it in some places.

Over all, Im happy to see fuzzy roots again, but that darn brown crap is spoiling my fun buzz!!!

[Fresherbs]

this whole thread is just a dickload of information and trial and error.
good work

[anon32470837]

hehehe yup lots of trial and even more error for sure, plus dont forget all the tortured babies! Fortunately, unlike some of my other experiments in the past, there have been no fires and explosions - so far

Well, forget everything I said about the new fuzzy roots, or maybe the copper causing the tip burn on the newer leaves. Turns out Im just not very observant. I raised the EC up from 0.6 to 0.9 10 days ago because I thought the leaves looked kind of pale. Looking at old pics, the tip burning started to show up the day after I raised the EC from 0.6 to 0.9. Nothing mysterious about that at all. Ive probably gone down too far, so Im going raise it up to 0.8 and see how it does.

Taking lots of pics and keeping notes helps a lot - if you use the data

[anon32470837]

The roots continue to grow and are doing much better over the last few days.

The best indicators to me are two things.

1. Most of the new growth is horizontal. The roots are not rushing to the bottom of the chamber. That tells me my mist ratio is in the ball park.

2. I have tons of fuzzy hairs!!! Its looking like the majority of root hairs are actually fuzzy - which is a first. Some of the brown roots are even getting a little fuzzy.

There has been no significant change in timing, so I can only think that it is the copper that is working.

The plant continues to grow steadily now too, so its doing well at both ends. I FIM’ed the baby yesterday. I think its time to start LST and see what this one can do.

Two days ago.

Yesterday.

Tonight.

[anon32470837]

Yesterday morning, I started to see some signs of chlorosis. Thats one of the symptoms of excess copper. I was keeping the rez at around 0.3PPM, so I dropped it down to 0.1 PPM. Its hard to tell, but things look a bit better today as far as the light colored leaves - maybe. I’ll be watching this closely.

The plant is still growing well - about a 1/2" a day, and the roots look great. Tons of fuzzies.

[HappyHemper]

Amazing growth in just a fee days @anon32470837. Algaecide experiment is giving me hope

[anon32470837]

@HappyHemper

Amazing growth in just a fee days

Im glad you said that. It feels to me like its been weeks, but its actually only 8 days since I started with the copper, and you’re right, the growth in the roots is impressive.

Here are the before/after copper shots of the roots again.

It remains to be seen if these levels of copper are going to cause longer term issues - like the iron chlorosis. I sure hope not.

[anon32470837]

Time for an up-date. Things are progressing in the usual good/bad mix that makes it tricky to tell what to do next.

On the plus side - the plant looks better and is growing. The roots also are still growing and expanding, and the vast majority of the new roots are nice pure white - and fuzzy.

On the bad side - the brown crap seems to be growing/spreading again now that Ive lowered the copper concentration down to the .15 level.

Also on the bad side is that I am having a hard time telling of I have the EC to hi or too low and if the chlorosis is from excess copper or from too low an EC, or???

The new leaves look good, but the older leaves seem to be getting lighter in color and have more chlorosis, and burned edges and tips.

I really hate it when I have different parts of the plant telling me different stories. I wish ALL the darn leaves would get together on this and agree on what the heck is going on!

When in doubt, I tend to go with what the newest growth looks like. If it looks ok, I figure the current situation cant be all that bad.

So, I think my EC is OK at 0.8, and the copper doesnt seem to be causing any chlorosis in the new leaves, so 0.15 looks safe as far as the excess copper blocking absorption of iron.

BUT - it looks like the brown crap is starting to spread on the roots again. I can only assume at this point that I need more copper. Im going to increase the copper concentration in the rez again, and see what happens.

Here are the roots today.

I had to get a new USB scope. My old one quite working with windows 10. The new one works well. Here are some random closeups. As before, where ever there is brown, there are no fuzzies.

Here is the plant earlier today. I started LST a few days ago. That socket on the left is weighing the stem down so it grows sideways - to the left.

After re-reading a thread on de-foliation, I succumbed to the dark side of the force and removed a bunch of fan leaves. The secondary growth started to develop faster as soon as I bent the stem over. We will see how the leaf decimation works out…

As you can see - Im still getting my late day wilting.

Oh - timing is still at 0.8 sec ON. Ive been sloooooooooowly increasing the OFF times. Im now up to 70 sec OFF. Its taken a full week to go from 55 sec OFF to 70 sec.

If you look closely at the root pic, you will see some areas where the root tips seem to be air-pruning and drying up - maybe. That could also be the brown crap causing that. Or maybe some of both. Thats a large part of my frustration at the moment.

[anon32470837]

This copper stuff is so concentrated that its tricky trying to dose a small rez. I wanted to go from 0.15 to 0.2 or maybe 0.25, but I ended up back at 0.3 to 0.35. One drop wasnt enough and two drops was too much. I need to make a diluted batch for more precise dosing.

Im going to leave it there for a few days to see if the chlorosis comes back and if it stops the brown crap.