Here is what it looks like this morning. Fast recovery.
Its still too soon to tell for sure, but no signs of chlorosis so far.
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Its been about 2 days since I increased the copper concentration. The plant looks good and there are no signs of chlorosis, but the brown crap still seems to be spreading, so I upped the copper concentration from the 0.30 - 0.35 range to the 0.50 range.
On the evening wilt, lowering the temps into the mid to upper 70âs - which increases the RH to the 40-45% range, has made a significant difference. Im still getting wilting, but not nearly as bad and it starts later in the evening, so closer to lights out.
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Its been two days at the 0.5 PPM copper level. I started to see some chlorosis yesterday, but it wasnt bad, so I decided to leave it. Today the chlorosis is no worse, and the roots may be looking very slightly better - maybe, so Im going to let it go longer at this level.
Pics laterâŠ
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Here are pics from 2 days ago - when I started the 0.5 PPM level.
Here are some pics from today.
Other than being a little pale in color, and some chlorosis, the plant looks good up top. The growth is coming back very nicely since my de-foliation and its growing.
It still seems to me like the over all growth rate is pretty slow. Thats one symptom of too much copper though.
Once its there, the brown coloration on the roots doesnt seem to ever go away no matter what. The only way to tell if Im winning is to look at the new growth and try to judge if its white or brown or turning brown. That is really hard to judge.
At the moment, I think that maybe, possibly, perhaps, Im winning to a small degree as far as new growth being white and the brown not spreading - maybe. However, I do seem to be loosing fuzzy hairs in many areas.
I am left wondering what to do. The copper is NOT a for sure kill as far as the algae, or the plant, but it does seem to be helping - maybe. Its not killing the plant too badly - so far, but growth seems slooooow. Its been 5 weeks since germination and the baby has been in the root chamber for just over 4 weeks now.
Should I up the copper concentration even more to try to kill the algae? That will likely stress the plant and slow it down even more.
I cant afford to install an RO system right now, but its looking like that is the only option left to try other than higher doses of copper - or starting over.
Im tempted to start over with a new seed. The roots on this one were looking good in the beginning until I screwed up the timing - twice - when I forgot to turn the timer back on and let them dry out. Maybe if I can keep the new roots healthy from the get go, the algae wont be able to get started?
This is frustrating not knowing what to do.
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I spent an hour or so looking closely at zoomed in root pics and I now think the brown is growing rather than retreating. On the other hand, the plant looks slightly pale, but other wise, pretty happy.
It occurred to me that I am possibly breeding a stronger, copper resistant strain of this brown crap by slowly increasing the concentration.
Things seemed to go better when I was able to dunk the roots in super strong solution, then maintain a smaller concentration in the rez. However, that does not seem to have been enough. I cant dunk the roots any more - they are too big to take out of the chamber without major trimming - which I may do if things dont turn around soon.
So - I decided to jump up the copper concentration from 0.5 PPM range to 1.0 PPM range and see how that does. Thats the highest level this test kit can read, so if I go stronger, it will just be guess work and counting drops.
We will see how it looks tomorrow. I plan to keep increasing the copper until the plant shows serious signs of being unhappy.
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On another note - with the exception of the brown crap - I am pretty happy with how the over all system is performing. These nozzles, after I modified the anti-drip valves, seem to be working well. The roots like the spray better than they did from the other nozzles and the flow rate is significantly lower.
Other than the brown crap, my only real maintenance is topping off the rez about every 7 days or so and cleaning filters.
My well water is still an on-going issue due to the PH swing. It also seems to be changing as the rainy season gets into full swing. The average PH when it comes out of the tap is dropping. It went from 7.4ish at times last spring, to 6.7ish over the summer to 6.4ish now. I still have to re-PH the rez for two to three days after I top it off. The PH keeps rising dramatically at first.
Hmmmmmm 24 hours at 1.0 PPM copper didnt seem to do much of anything. Over all, I cant really see any increase in the chlorosis. Some leaves may be a bit worse off, but others look maybe a bit better!
The roots continue to grow - with a mix of brown and white. This may just be wishful thinking on my part, but there may be more white showing up in the new growth, while the old growth gets a little browner. I think, maybe, possibly, the white is still winning, but its really hard to tell for sure.
So - what to do next⊠I decided, for the moment, to aprox triple the copper concentration to see what happens. I cant measure this level of copper - its just counting drops - but I should now be somewhere between 3.0 and 4.0 PPM.
It occurs to me I have built up a long series conclusions, based on a series of assumptions based on a series of guesses. A real house of cards trying to stand up to storm winds of brown crap.
The main one is the this is algae bloom of some sort, and not root rot. Im pretty confident its not typical root rot, but not 100% confident it is algae.
Maybe Im just slowly killing off some of the roots (holes in the mist pattern, too much copper, forgetting to turn on the timer, etc etc) and they turn brown as they die?
The other big one is that if it is algae, its in my well water.
Im fairly confident in that one. I left some damp paper towels in the tent (trying to raise humidity) and they turn brown in short order as they dry out. Also, my perlite always shows brown where the light gets to it in the pots. It shows green where it stays really wet, but its brown where its just barely damp - not sure why.
Thinking out loud hereâŠ
IF the algae is in the well, it must have been there from my first grow. I didnt see any brown in my soil grow, other than where some of the roots air-pruned outside the fabric pots, but I never looked at the roots - so who knows?
However, I did see tons of brown in my first hydro grow. I assumed it was root rot, but now I dont think so.
My first grow turned out very well, so if there was brown crap growing it didnt really hurt much.
In my first hydro grow, I still got a good yield, despite tons of very brown roots. I did have lots of hermies in both grows, so maybe the brown is causing some stress - or maybe not. I make enough mistakes on my own to cause plenty of stress, so again - who knows?
Im now wondering if Im worrying tooooo much about the brown crap. To be honest, the main reason Im out to kill it is because its killing off my little fuzzy root hairs. I love my little fuzzy root hairs!
The other issue - if it is coming from my well - then every time I change out the rez, I add in fresh brown crap. If I dont kill it dead really fast, its going to get to the roots. Keeping a hi copper concentration doesnt seem to be stopping the brown, but does seem to be slowing the plant growth.
So, Im starting to think this copper thing may not be a good idea after all - maybe. Who the heck knowsâŠ
Any way, for the moment, Im going to nuke the shit out of the roots with copper for another day. If that doesnt seem to be making good changes, then screw it. Im going to stop the copper and just see what happens. Worst case is I kill another poor defenseless little hungry baby girl in the chamber of death 
Also, I guess I better start saving for an RO systemâŠ
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Not RO, but I have several and could send you one of these:
which might also serve well as a pre-RO system filter (which is what Iâm doing).
Comes with and uses standard 20 inch filters. Housings are Pentair and are good. Fittings are cheap but work. Iâd personally swap the included filters as there are a whole variety filter types available depending on what youâre trying to accomplish.
Osmonics TO-320 wall-mount triplex pre-filter assembly rated at approximately 6 GPM. Unit consists of three Pentair 158205 20-inch housings with filters, valve assemblies, pressure gauges and mounting bracket. Includes one Hytrex GX04-20, 5 micron sediment filter and two Sta-Rite F10-250-20 carbon filters. Filter assembly is unused in original package. Package dimensions: 27 x 17 x 7.
Technical Documents:
Osmonics_TO-320_pre-filter_assembly
Specifications:
Flow Rate: 6 GPM
Pipe Size: 1/2 inch
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Oh wow. I am floored by that offer! Thank you just doesnt cover it, but - thank you!
Hold off on sending it though. I still have not figured out where Im going to put the system and how to get water from point A to point B. If I wasnt married it would be much easier⊠
Copper vs Brown crap from hell report. Even at levels way beyond what the EPA says is safe for humans, the plant just says âehâ and gets a tiny bit paler and the brown crap just shrugs and says 'Copper? What copper?". The EPA says 1.3 PPM is the warning level and Im at around 4 PPM.
So, Im going to reverse course and go back to zero copper for a few days and see what happens.
Here is the current root pic and some of the leaves this evening.
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I cant decide if this is good or bad, but the law of unintended consequences has bit me in the butt.
Its mostly good, but frustrating at the same time because it makes many of my conclusions over the last few weeks iffy.
Several weeks ago, at the start of the brown crap, I changed the settings on my camera so that the brown showed up better in the pics. Early on, it was hard to see the brown in the pictures compared to how well I could see it by eye. I wanted to be able to track the spread easier.
Well, it seems I did tooooo good a job of making the brown stand out.
I just now decided to go into the chamber to clean some roots out of my drain - they finally made it down to the bottom of the chamber. More on that later.
Anyway, while shining a flash into the chamber I immediately noticed that the roots looked almost pure white!!! Looking at them with a mark one eyeball, they look great!
WTF??? Even the darkest brown sections at the top dont look all that bad!
So, thats a good thing over all, but it makes me wonder if I have been treating a crappy camera setting all this time instead of an crapy algae infestation??? Or, did I kill off the algae early on and didnt need all that super toxic copper? Maybe the pool shock did the trick and I didnt need any copper? Or, did it take all of the copper to get this good or or or or or???
I spent a few minutes trying to âfixâ my camera settings so the roots show up closer to what they actually look like, but I didnt get even close. I will have to work on that more tomorrow, but it looks like Im going to have to plan to look through the access hatch up top with an eyeball instead of relying on the pics taken through small holes in the root chamber walls.
I was just about to log on and announce that stopping the copper treatments had caused a growth spurt in the roots and the plant. Also, most all of the new root growth seems to be turning nice and fuzzy. At the same time, the pics were telling me the brown was still spreading. Looking at it by eyeball, it looks like the brown is reducing in places near the net pot where it was worst, and its just barely noticeable at all pretty much every where else.
So Im left wondering if the copper was even needed at all, or did it do all the work killing off the brown crap, and if so, how much was really needed? Or was it the pool shock or did the roots just heal themselves?
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr
I should feel good about this, but I hate not knowing - especially after putting this much time and effort into the copper trials. I feel kind of stupid spending all this time trying to kill optical illusions - unless maybe I did kill themâŠin which case, I should feel good, but it would have been nice to know they were actually being killed off!
Pissmoangrumblegripeandfiddlesticks!
But - the plant is finally growing at a much faster rate, and the roots look (almost) great, so I âthinkâ stopping the copper was a good choice.
Roots on the bottom - including some fuzzies.
Almost all of the brown in this pic doesnt show up by eye.
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On another note - Ive been using the Hana Dual TDS monitor since early on. I have developed a love/hate relationship with it - mostly because it doesnt seem to want to stay calibrated.
Until recently, its been mostly useless. I dont use it to check the actual TDS levels. I monitor the EC in the rez with my Bluelab truncheon meter.
What the dual TDS meter is for is to tell me if the runoff water, that drips down from the roots, has a higher or lower TDS than the water from the accumulator tank. The goal is to tell if I have a good EC value. The theory is that if the TDS from the tank is the same as the TDS of the runoff, then all is good. If the runoff is higher or lower, then I need to make adjustments to the EC in the rez.
Up till recently, the roots were too small and the amount of runoff from the actual roots was far less than the total spray volume. However, the roots have grown wide enough to cover almost the entire collection area I have set up. That means most of the water dripping into my test container is what drips off the roots.
Now in theory, the runoff should be slightly higher in TDS than the water in the tank. Thats because some of the water volume of the individual droplets will evaporate away as the drops wander through the chamber. That will increase the concentration of any dissolved minerals, nutes, etc.
So, with no roots at all, the TDS should read slightly higher in the runoff, and thats what I was seeing during the initial testing.
The frustrating part is that I have to re-calibrate the IN and OUT probes at least every few days or they dont agree. Thats kind of a pain, but I have a new system that makes it easier.
Anyway, after all that build up, it looks like the TDS values are lower in the runoff than in the tank.The tank is reading about 505 and the runoff is at 440. Im assuming that means I need to increase the EC. I have been at the 0.8 to 0.9 range, so Im bumping it up to the 1.0 range tomorrow.
Timing is still at 0.8 ON / 75 off. I am thinking if trying at 0.7 ON for a while now that the roots dont look so bad, but I may wait on that - LITFA!!
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I would bump it higher up then 1.0 Ec
Canât remember how much light your using, but the growth is looks slow for Aeroponics.
Havenât read every single post to be honest, so not sure why your doing it, but I would stop the copper treatment.
The high copper lvls are deffently effecting the growth, as well as your root development.
For the brown gunk, just treat it with a mild h2o2 solution if itâs slimey.
Clean and change res and add some CANNA RHIZOTONIC or another root stimulating BB culture, to reculture your roots and help protect them.
Running sterile aeroponics is a PITA, in my experiance. Your better of reintroducing a microbiological culture,
right after fighting of root rot, if you donât it will most likely be a continual fight.
All that been said, and all taken in mind. Itâs looking good, the root ball should support a massive growth.
And itâs not looking like there are heavy cupper toxic damage done, so I would just give it a good flush with pH adjusted water.
Mix a fresh batch of nutes, order something to culture your roots and start feeding the plant with a proper ballanced feed.
My best guess is, your plant will explode in growth.
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Nice one @Palindrome, living hydro guy here too, was the only thing that got my roots healthy.
Living on Aero perhaps he needs to inoculate directly at the roots, as looks like the pressure/nozles kill the critters ?
@anon32470837 my roots also get some red / brown(ish) spots under flash and perfect white looking them. Nice catch.
I am enjoying a lot this journal, the ammount of care, attention to details and documentation are great. Aero is not my thing, but man it is fun to watch.
As usual, my best energies for you and yours 
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I went up to 1.3, but that was largely due to being stoned and not taking into account that the rez was half empty when I added the Mega Crop 
I may need to go even higher, but Im going to give it a little more time. The runoff is still testing lower than the feed water, but its only been maybe 12 hours since the change.
This has me pondering why it happening though. Earlier in the grow, I couldnt get over 0.8 EC without burning and the runoff was a good bit higher in TDS rather than lower. Was that an effect of the copper or something else? Is it due to the roots finally being large enough for the effects to show up? if so, why the burning before?
As usual, Im left with more questions than answersâŠ
LOL!! Yes, you missed a few posts and maybe a dozen or so changes along the way 
I agree the copper was slowing down the growth of everything - thats the main reason why I stopped it - several days ago
And, yes, The plant and roots are growing significantly faster now with no copper.
There has never been any slime or any bad smell. The roots smell like fresh hay - even the brown parts I cut off earlier. That, plus the fact that my water never gets above 70 F makes me think this is NOT any kind of bacterial growth or infection. Plus, every time Ive tried beneficial bacteria - HydroGuard and the much much stronger Garden Friendly Fungicide, have had zero effect. Plus, every thing I have read says they are killed by the hi-pressure spray action. I did try several times spraying both Hydro Guard and the Garden Friendly stuff directly on the roots with no change I could see.
The only two things that have made a visible change in the color of the roots are very strong chlorine/pool shock, and now the copper. The pool shock had the bad side effect of drooping leaves and it killed off the fuzzy hairs on the roots, while having only a small change in the brown crap, so I stopped that. I admit I didnt try H202, but I doubt it would do better than pool shock or copper.
Anyway, all of that leads me to believe that this is an algae problem and not bacterial. Or - maybe its just dead roots and no algae at all - or a mix.
I spent some time today going back over pics and notes, and trying to adjust for color errors in the pics, I think the copper did help the most while doing the least amount of damage to the plants - other than slowing it down a bunch. Im still not 100% sure, but I think it was worth it. In the future, Im not sure what the best course of treatment would be, but I am leaning towards doing a series of dunks in super strong copper, followed by a short time at maybe 1 to 2 PPM max. Unfortunately, if your roots are too big, you have no choice but to do a time at hi PPM levels.
Maybe.
This whole things really needs to be repeated with some controls and much larger number of test subjects. My floundering around here is far from scientific in any way, but I still âfeelâ like the copper was effective to some degree.
if the brown comes back, my new plan is to try to find a college agri dept that would be willing to do some analysis of the roots, and my well water. That is the only thing I can think of that will tell me whats really going on and how to handle it. Im actually half way hoping it does get bad again so I can do that
Which reminds me, Im really pissed off about my âwater qualityâ situation. Its very very difficult to find out who the fuck is in charge om my water quality, and even more difficult to get a complete report. After many many emails, I finally got to a person who said I needed to âlog and track a formal public disclosure requestâ.
It seems my water quality reports are a government secrete that I have to pry out of their grubby hands.
This is particularly troubling because there are partial reports available with âtest resultsâ. The reports say there are no âexceedencesâ, which seems to be a way to say they passed the tests - but - when I open the reports, there are values that DO exceed the state limits on things like pesticides, and copper, and other nasty things - sometimes by almost a factor of 5!!! WTF??? So far, no one has answered my questions about any of that.
Grrrrrrr
Other than the inoculants, thats exactly what I did, and things are going much better, so thanks!
Thanks!!
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That is super - Itâs not an algea, they require light and as I see it.
There isnât really any light getting to your roots, if there is that should be blocked off.
I have used beneficial bacteria in my old aeroponic system, I ran my nozzels at 5 Bar and 80 micron mist.
Canât say if my BB culture suffered from that, but I noticed a great improvment in my over all plant health and increased yeald. When I started using BB cultures, and the only symptom I really saw was less issues.
Wasnât like the roots exploded in growth, or anything marvelous, the roots/plants just stayed healthyer and in the end they yealding more.
Another option would also be just mist the rootâs, a few times a week with a hand sprayer.
Once they have colonized the root ball, they will protect it from bad bacterias and fungi attacts.
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Thats what I thought, but there seem to be some strains that can live in wells - which have no light either. My root chamber is as light proof as it can be - other than the occasional flash from the camera.
If this isnt algae, then Im at a loss. Or maybe its just some dead roots that have not rotted away yet? A very good reason to find an agri department at a college somewhere that would like to use my roots for some tests. Im going to look into that after the holidays.
Thats interesting. Im running between 7 to 8 Bar or around 100-110 PSI. Most of the aero guys recommend not using any organic anything because of clogging, but also because the hi pressure is supposed to kill the bacteria - BUT - thats just hearsay. I am thinking that I did find one research paper that supported that theory, but now I dont recall for sure.
Thats a good idea. It avoids the whole problem of the hi-pressure killing them or not.
I will do that again now that the copper is gone. I still have a hand sprayer with some Garden Friendly stuff all mixed up.
The majority of BB cultures I have used, where either a dry powder or a clear liquid. Used Rizotonic once, then switched to a cheaper option as I ran 2x 1000 gal res and seeding that with cannaâs product would have cost a small fortune.
I have kept aquariums for about 20 years, and the same bacterias are used in both tank and koi pond filters.
They just sell them in 5 gal bucket for koi ponds, as they treat 1000âs of gal of water and the price is much much lower.
And the BB culture donât care if itâs in a koi pond or your grow, they will work just the same
Same goes for enzymes, that break down old roots and organic matter.
Organic nutrients is a no go, but the waste from the BB cultures I have used. Form as a silt looking gunk on the bottom of the res, fairly heavy and didnât cause my nozzels to clog. The small amounts that got picked up by the feeding pump, would be caught in the discfilter and never reach the nozzels.
Mister cloggings where only due to salt build-up, as I would clean the feed tubes between grows without the misters.
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LOL. With the run-around, maybe approach this top down starting with the state regulatory office.
The federally mandated minimum required reporting requirements:
âșWater System Information : Name/phone number of a contact person; information on public participation opportunities.
âș Source(s) of Water
âș Definitions : Maximum Contaminant Level (MCL); MCL Goal (MCLG); Treatment Technique (TT); Action Level (AL); Maximum Residual Disinfectant Level (MRDL); MRDL Goal (MRDLG).
âș Detected Contaminants : A table summarizing reported concentrations and relevant MCLs and MCLGs or MRDLs and MRDLGs; known source of detected contaminants; health effects language.
âș Information on Monitoring for Cryptosporidium, Radon, and Other Contaminants (if detected).
âș Compliance with Other Drinking Water Regulations : (any violations and Ground Water Rule [GWR] special notices).
âș Variances and Exemptions(if applicable).
âș Required Educational Information : Explanation of contaminants in drinking water and bottled water; information to vulnerable populations about
Cryptosporidium; statements on nitrate, arsenic, and lead
With the permission of the governor of a state (or designee), or where the tribe has primacy, in lieu of mailing, systems serving fewer than 10,000 persons may publish their CCR in a local newspaper.
CWSs must:
âș Mail or directly deliver a copy of the CCR to each of their customers by July 1 annually.
âșMake a good faith effort to get CCRs to non-bill-paying consumers, using means recommended by the state.
âș_Send a copy to the director of the state drinking water program and any other state agency that the state drinking water program director identifies when you mail it to customers._
âș**Submit to the state a certification, within 3 months of mailing, that the CWS distributed the CCR, and that its information is correct and consistent with the compliance monitoring data previously submitted to the state.**
âșPost their CCRs on the Internet (if the CWSs serve 100,000 or more people).
âșCWSs may also want to send copies to state and local health departments, as well as local TV and radio stations and newspapers.
Escalate:
Our water quality has been terrible for days, but the water company says that there is no problem and will not provide any information more current than the 2002 annual water quality report. With whom can I speak about this situation?
Public water systems oversee the drinking water delivered to your home. You should first contact your drinking water provider. If you do not obtain a satisfactory explanation, your next step should be contacting your state drinking water program office, which has the regulatory enforcement authority to ensure water systems in the state are meeting all drinking water standards. [State drinking water program offices can be found at Ground Water and Drinking Water | US EPA] Also, the Environmental Protection Agency may be able to help. Please contact the Safe Drinking Water Hotline if you need assistance in obtaining contact information.
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At this stage, I would be considering an RO unit. Not only will it remove anything biological, but it will also remove limescale causing elements which might clog up your nozzles.
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Thanks for those quotes! I intend to pursue this for sure, and they will help!!