Adventures in Hydro #2 - LP Aero/NFT mash-up - or - switching to HPA?

Indoor Growing Hydroponics
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#703

Thanks guys! I will post more later, but the short version is I still dont know whats up with the Aquatec pumps. I have not found anyone who has turned up their pump more than 20 PSI above the ‘nominal’ rating based on the model number.

There are NO pumps listed on the Aquatec site (Other than that single 5800 model I listed above) that go above 80 PSI. It sounds like all of them can be adjusted up to some degree, but I have found no refference that they can go up more than 20 PSI.

However, there are several different models - including 8800 series - available on various vendor sites that go as hi as 160 PSI. One site - Freshwater systems - also includes handy dandy spec sheets documenting the models that do hi pressures. These PDF’s appear to be from Aquatec - but those spec sheets are no where on the Aquatec site!!

Im doubtful that they can all be turned up to 160 PSI mostly because there are very different flow rates, amp draws, etc, listed for the different models even at the same pressure settings. That leads me to think they must have different mechanical details in the construction of the pump heads and/or motors.

Im tempted to order the one 160 PSI model I found, but there are conflicting specs on that listing as well. In one place it says max ‘operating’ pressure is 160 PSI, but in another place it says max ‘working’ pressure 125 PSI???

I will call Aquatec tomorrow and see what they tell me. I hope they know what they are doing :slight_smile:

That link above on air guns/nozzles etc has me thinking about AA again. Dont think I can afford to experiment in that direction but I sure would like to give it a try. If I knew for sure which nozzles would produce the proper size droplets I might go ahead, but I cant afford to drop $100 a pop on nozzles that may or may not work.

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#704

Yeah, the model they have “8852-2P01-S424” claims

prime 6 foot H2O
3/8 push connects
130 PSI discharge, 160 PSI bypass
730mL/minute. 2.2A/24VAC at 130 PSI

Difference in the data sheet provided versus whats being sold are the last digits. Datasheet notes -S424 while part number on the website shows -T421. Doesn’t describe what the last digits denotes.

I couldn’t find the equivalent on the Aquatech site, either. There are other pumps with the same part number but the last four digits differ and the pressures also vary.

They do note, in that same datasheet,

PERFORMANCE MEASURED WITH FLOODED INLET (0 PSI), 70°F (21°C) AMBIENT AND WATER TEMPERATURE, AND VOLTAGE CONTROLLED AT 24 VAC. POSITIVE INLET PRESSURE WILL INCREASE THE DISCHARGE PRESSURE BY A SIMILAR AMOUNT, FOR A GIVEN FLOW. MAXIMUM INLET PRESSURE IS 60 PSI.

So, the -S424 says it will work from 0 PSI on the inlet.

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#705

I called Aquatec 3 times today. They finally answered the phone, but that didnt help much. The sales folks dont know crap about the pumps and when they tried to switch me to tech support I got stuck on hold. I left messages today and sent an email last friday, but no luck so far on information.

I tried some of the green dragon I made from the C99. I Like it. Nice mellow, relaxed hi. Not bad as far as pain relief, but not as good as my Critical CBD. It does make me sleepier, have more couch lock than I hoped it would. I was wanting a day time hi that DIDNT put me to sleep or make me stare off into space with ‘that look’. I was wanting something I could take and still get work done. I’ll have to go real easy for that to work. Still, I do like it. Im toying with leaving it in green dragon form instead of making capsules. If I just dip a spoon in and lick it, I get a nice buzz that hits really fast. Tastes like crap, but oh well :slight_smile:

I need to do a wrap up on the grow, post some final root pics, run the numbers etc, but Im too stoned :smiley:

I do need to run the math on if I can do another grow this spring or not. If I dont get started really soon, I wont have time before it gets too hot, plus I have travel plans that are likely to fall right at harvest time which would be bad time to leave for a week.

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#706

This is exactly why I love my tinctures! Fast acting. You will also find less couch lock by sublingual dosing. You bypass the liver and get D9-THC in the bloodstream instead of the more psychoactive 11-hydroxy-THC.

I also encourage you to experiment with THC-A (not decarbing) for pain relief. THC-A is less psychoactive and good for inflammation.

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#707

Im mostly recovered from the latest bout of kidney stones, but life is still happening around me, so this will be another short post.

I will respond to all the earlier posts eventually!

Aquatec ‘tech support’ doesnt know as much about their pumps as I do! Grrrrrr. I did manage to find out that (almost) all their pumps are adjustable up/down from the nominal pressure. But no one at Aquatec could say what the range was. “Probably” at least 20 PSI - at a guess. Maybe. Also, its possible that the ONLY difference between the different models is the spring in the bypass valve - maybe. He thinks.

The website is hopeless because they make “custom” pumps for pretty much anyone, then they seem to make a new PDF “data sheet” for that pump - but it may or may not actually apply to that pump only - maybe. He thinks.

So, its possible you could buy any 8800 series pump and turn up the pressure to the max of 160 PSI on the bypass by either changing the screw or spring - maybe. Of course, you need one of the pumos that has the bypass pressure control option - maybe. He’s not sure about the pumps that dont have that option - maybe.

He did leave me on hold for 15 minutes while he checked with other people who should know these answers - but finally came back with no one was sure… but maybe…

He gave me a link to a company that sells all their pumps - but it turns out that company doesnt sell them any more.

Grrrrrrrrrrr I hate stupid people who decide to work in customer support and stupid companies that hire stupid people to work for them.

Anyway, I found a pump at Freshwater systems that has the correct specs - maybe. Probably. I hope.

Im in no rush now though. Even if I started the new seedling in the system today, it wouldnt be ready to harvest until mid june. That will be too hot for me to keep rez and tent temps within reason. So, I have lots of time to get the pump, clean and re-build the chamber etc.

More later…

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#708

Hope you keep on feeling better Larry!

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#709

I would love to change over to AA (Air Atomized), but no one who knows is willing to share which nozzles work well and which dont.

The droplet sizes we need are in the 20 to 80 micron size range.

If here was a nozzle that made droplets in that size range, that ran on low air pressures - 20 to 30 PSI - that would be awesome.

I did find one chart that suggested that an HVLP gun could do that.

hvlp.JPG1028×693 177 KB

It looks to me like inner gas injection or two stage would work, but I havent found any individual ‘guns’ that show what the droplet sizes are. Now that I have some time, Im going to look into that more.

If you could find anything out, that would be awesome!!!

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#710

Cool I know a lil about spraying…just enough to be dangerous. It’s also handy that your not in a big hurry. HVLP is short for high volume low pressure…the air source. For the work I do, production with hvlp sucks. Conventional or LVHP(low volume high pressure) really is superior in every way on the job-site. It actually atomizes the coatings better and allows greater production. I’m not sure if that is a plus for growing but…Both would require fluid and air. I imagine an automatic gun setup is what you’re after. I’m not sure about controls either but I’ll keep looking. Here’s some info on binks guns. I’m not trying to push binks it just happens to be what I prefer at work. I do know that the super cheap imports are just that…cheap. It’s hard to find info about droplet sizes. I do know that the stain is suspended in air for a long time. I’ve got messages in.
http://www.sprayequipment.com/wp-content/uploads/Binks-Trophy-Series-Spray-Guns-Brochure.pdf

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#711

I will be very interested in what ever you can find out. Like I said, the droplet size is the main thing to look for, but over all flow rate is important too - especially if you want to do drain 2 waste. A nozzle that made average 50 micron droplets over a wide air pressure and liquid flow rate range would be ideal.

The main reasons I am focused on HVLP are noise and throw distance. HP sprayers make a lot of noise. Thats not a huge issues, but it is a factor. Having several noisy sprayers activating every single minute of the day, 24/7 can get old. The other issue is throw distance. HP sprayers throw the mist further. That means you will need a larger root chamber for them to function well. In smaller chambers, the lower mist velocity will give more time for the droplets to wander around before impacting the walls, etc. Plus, you wont have to blast the roots directly.

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#712

He must be talking about an AA system that was sold a few years back. Ive never seen an HPA system that would have increased pressures in the root chamber. There was an AA system marketed a few years ago - I think it was made in England originally - that was basically a large plastic box with AA nozzles fitted. If the box was sealed to any degree, I could see the pressure increasing in the chamber on each mist cycle. I would think it wouldnt be much though or you would be blowing net pots out of the holes.

In my case, my root chamber is just a fabric pot. You can see daylight through the fabric, so not air tight at all. The outer foam heating enclosure is also not even close to tightly sealed as far as air leaks. Plus, Im not pumping any air. Only about 3ml of liquid/cycle into a volume of 181,000 ml, so virtually zero pressure rise.

That sounds like an awesome system. Let us know when its ready for market!!

Exactly right.

Based on my conversations with Aquatec tech support - you are probably correct. Maybe. On some pumps. Probably. He thinks :wink: Thanks for the help!! You were at least as helpful as the tech guy and probably know more than he does!!!

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#713

Still a way yet. I want to make the pumps and the pump selector box a single unit, I need to source someplace to get metal boxes (to stop RF interference) made with specific cutouts, and there are months of coding to do…

So in the meantime, I will be doing stability testing on the hardware configuration and writing code to allow the user to change everything on the screen.

The reason he said that was it was another route to giving the roots the impression the feed strength was too high. All his answers went back to the same concept, but with different mechanisms for the cause. Too much feed, not enough water for leaves in high stress situations.

This cycle I am deliberately trying to underfeed my plants. I am running CalMag at 25% dilution, and I am keeping TDS under 500 (EC 1.0). They are growing well but they are a bit pale, although they often are at this stage before they get a decent root mat made. I will wait for another week, they often green up at that point without increasing feed strength.

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#714

Cool deal I’ll ask about the hvlp…I’ve had hvlp that ran off a compressor and also had units that ran off a turbine air source. They both were hvlp…the one that hooked directly to the air compressor reduced the air pressure internally and worked best imho. I know you’ve researched it more than I, but I will say the higher pressure/conventional sprayers also can be dialed back to very low pressures. My Rollie Williams rep is on vacation and he really knows sprayers plus I’ll be able to explain the actual mj use to him.

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#715

I might have had yet another epiphany regarding the leaf issue, at least for my system. I have done some more research and increased my knowledge of how excess metals can block absorption of other elements.

It may be that when I had a ‘low PH incident’ a while ago, this might have started corrosion internally in my pumps. I recently mentioned in a thread I thought they were good pumps (and they have performed incredibly reliably and still do) and it was mentioned about having a stainless steel flow casing for the impeller. I noted my pumps did not but as they were working fine thought no more about it until I read that too much iron can cause elements like sulphur and potassium to not be taken up by the plant…

This may have been what was being intimated by my shop guy. Like I say, he is very cryptic and what he really wants is for me to work it out for myself.

I have refilled my system and after 10 days the plants are bright yellow at the tips, a sure sign of a sulphur def. I have played around with temperature, humidity, PH, and nutrient strength but nothing works. Sulphur is blocked by excess iron and so is potassium, both my deficiencies…

As a bonus, I now have an excellent image to post in the ‘sulphur def’ FAQ page.

Knowing copper can block iron absorption also, and seeing some green on my fittings, I have decided to replace all pumps and any brass fittings in my system and I have realised I should put the pump, and fittings, in my schedule for replacement even if working fine. I reckon every three years should be about right for the pumps, and every five for the fittings.

Looking at the stainless steel casing pumps they are pricey (~£500) but if they stop the issues I have been having, they are worth it. As a bonus, they have around 50% more max flow at 0m and 200% flow at the 1m head I need so they might be worth getting just for that.

Just wondering if your system has any exposed metals anywhere?

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#716

Sorry folks! Life keeps happening around me and I just have not had time to think about this much. Just the latest event is I have two new 8 week old kittens added tot he house hold today, so thats got me majorly distracted.

I need to reply to several posts and I want to do a summary of things I think worked well and things that didnt work well, but I need to be a bit less distracted…

Just a quick note - it occurred to me I can buy a ‘silent’ air compressor for almost the exact same price as one of those Aquatec pumps. The accumulator tank can easily be used as an extra air storage tank, and all my fittings, valves, tubing, gauges, regulators, etc can be used with air or water.

The only thing extra that I would need to try AA is some air atomizing sprayer heads. One might even be enough. Ive found a whole bunch of cheap ones on e-bay - under $40 each - that just might be usable…maybe… the issue is very few specs of any kind.

https://www.ebay.com/i/121709256345?ul_noapp=true

these look more adjustable

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4BSP-Female-Thread-80-Degree-Wide-Angle-Spray-Air-Atomizing-Mist-Nozzle/391758175621?hash=item5b369b5d85:g:16kAAOSw8zNa1X1-

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#717

If you will be introducing air along with your nutes next time, I would suggest designing your ‘root zone area’ to cope with possible increased pressure in your root zone by adding a one-way venting valve of some sort (even a rubber flap over the end of a pipe would do).

Congratulations on getting a couple of house shredders :wink: We have a part-time cat who likes to leave us mice.

At my end, I have spent all day renewing every brass fitting in my system, and all pumps which have a cast iron casing. During this process, I noticed my PH had gone down to 0.7, just a little too low. After a small panic involving just dumping as much tap water as I could in the tank whilst pumping out as much as I could but strangely to no effect, I noticed I had dropped just a few drops of water onto the BNC connector for my PH probe…

Doh!

So I also have a new leaf issue, one I have seen before.

20190319_202124.jpg1160×2073 644 KB

The last time I saw this was when my friend who is a plumber made me some shiny bespoke pipework for my system. It looked lovely. Soldered copper joints, taps, and lots of shiny copper tubing.

Which was just before I found out copper causes your plants to go bright yellow.

So I think I have two issues. One is that the iron in the pump casings has corroded and is leaching iron into the water, giving me a potassium deficiency later in flower and the other is that the brass valves I have on each outlet are corroded and are leaching copper into the water making younger plants go yellow. I noticed it a few cycles ago but thought it was a humidity issue, but when I was in Portugal I had an issue and all the PH down was pumped into my tank, taking it down to 2PH, and I think this has corroded pumps, valves etc.

So they are all gone now. I now have two Grundfos UPS3 pumps (which are a bit more powerful and cheaper as a bonus) and new valves throughout. I will use these for the next year or so and source stainless steel alternatives.

Fingers crossed I should hopefully see them perk up in the next few days. I have been foliar feeding to try and get some nutes into them so they can make more roots.

EDIT :

The mind boggles what they mean by this :wink:

Google reckons…

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#718

Just to say, the girls have responded well to just changing the brass fittings for new ones and the pumps (one of which was very very corroded on the inside). I think I have finally nailed the problem, being metals leaching into my nute solution. I will from now on, be more vigilant on spotting corrosion and changing metal parts more regularly. I will look out for either stainless steel or chrome fittings for the next time they need replacing.

20190323_014623.jpg1160×2073 695 KB

Can’t wait to see what the girls do like when I don’t have this issue, I have been keeping yields up anyway, without a def they should do much better.

20190323_014511.jpg1160×2073 788 KB

Green shoots and veins!

EDIT :

Small update. I had an air lock in my pump which I did not notice for 2-3 hours and just as they were showing signs of recovering their roots totally dried out and they went downhill quickly so I have taken a fresh lot of clones and I have placed a canary in the system to see if it suffers any symptoms in the next couple of weeks.

As a result, I have decided to change all the valves again for plastic ones as the brass would eventually leach again eventually no matter.

I have also had a nice result on a pump. My local shop guy said he had a couple of old pumps he did not need any more. He told me of a system he designed in conjunction with the Malaysian government to try to help rural communities in Malaysia, flood and drain tables capable of producing 130,000 Pak Choi a month which would run from a 1000W solar panel. He said that the project used a larger pump than the one he had spare (he held his hands about 3-4 feet apart when telling me the size of that pump) but it was made by the same company and was a very solid pump.

Turns out the pump he meant was an Iwaki MD55. Magnetic drive, ceramic bearing, acid resistant, 9m head and 70lpm flow. Very strong, very quiet, very durable. At the 2m head I need, it has a flow of 63litres per minute (about 3800lph)

iwaki%20md%20series%20breakdown.jpg2963×1390 1.23 MB

The only part that has any possibility of wear is the head unit and that can be replaced like the head of a car engine (you even need to tighten the bolts in the right pattern) and my shop guy says the motor end should last 40 years…

So, moving forward, no metal parts in contact with the nutrient solution at all as I find this causes problems with P and Sulphur uptake. I suspect other metals would cause other deficiencies.

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#719

Hi @anon32470837, everything going ok? Missing your updates and Tesla style experiments :wink:

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#720

Same here. How you doing Larry?

Hope the absence is caused by you having loads of fun n stuff :wink:

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#721

Same here, was just thinking of him yesterday and how I hadn’t seen him around. Hope all is well brother!

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#722

Thanks guys!! I really do appreciate the sentiments - seriously - thanks!!!

Sorry for the long absence. I have been under the weather with various things - the worst of it a series of kidney stones - and generally very busy other wise. The result is I have just been too tired or tooooo stoned to post anything coherent :slight_smile:

Im off to bed now, but I will be back! :slight_smile:

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