Adventures in Hydro #2 - LP Aero/NFT mash-up - or - switching to HPA?

Indoor Growing Hydroponics
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#163

Its looking more and more like the fuzzy root rumors are correct - they are hard to get and easy to loose!

The seedling that had nice fuzzy roots in the HPA chamber is now 99.5% smooth roots. It has grown a bunch, but all the new stuff is tottaly smooth and all but a tiny bit of the fuzzies are gone.

The other seedling that I transplanted from perlite to the HPA chamber had started to show some fuzzy areas two day ago, but its now almost 100% smooth. Im sure thats due to my latest solenoid failure. It spent several hours with the nozzles tuck open - getting a constant drenching. Then, I took it out of the chamber and stuck it in a glass of water while I replaced the solenoid. That turned into a 3 hours long project due to some domestic interruptions, and distractions around the house. After replacing the solenoid, I had to lower the working pressure down and increase the ON time - so lager droplets and more wetness.

So, it only took about 12-14 hours of over wet roots to kill off the fine hairs that were starting up.

Im going to have to seriously look for better nozzles that will give me better atomization at lower pressures…

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#164

Well, I may have to eat those words. The first real roots are starting to pop out on one of the clones - and they are coming out where I scraped the stem hard, and there were none of those tiny root hairs anywhere close!

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#165

Lowering the pressure, which increases droplet size, and lowers the hang time of the mist, has made it more difficult to keep things in a good wet/dry balance. I find Im having to keep the clones wetter than I would like to keep them from wilting.

Despite all the problems so far, the first clone I put in the chamber has rooted at least a full day faster than the first bunch I tried in the LP system.

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Between the faster rooting, and the fuzzy roots I got with the seedling, I am encouraged to continue - but - I need different nozzles.

I found a pic from one of the few growers to actually get huge balls of fuzzy roots. It was possible to see the nozzles he was using, so I did a lot of searching and finally found which nozzles he is using.

fuzzy2.jpg800×600 35 KB

Here is an Amazon link

You can order them from here as well.

http://www.aeroponics.com/aero6j.htm

That company and another one that lists them, claim to be linked to NASA’s hydroponic research program, but its not clear if these were the same nozzles used on the space station. I suspect not, but cant find the NASA details so far.

These say they will do 10-50 micron drops at 60-100 PSI. The grower was TreeFarmer, and thats the pressure range he was running, so I think these may be legit.

The major downside to these is they are not anti-drip. I could add anti-drip valves, but the SS adapters would cost three or 4 times what the nozzles cost, and add inches to the length.

As a back up, I also ordered some stainless nozzles, and anti-drip valves, from these guys.

https://www.cloudtops.com/cloudtops/stainless_steel_fog_nozzles.html

Im getting the .5mm orifice versions. They are supposed to have a mean droplet size of about 15 microns at 60 PSI. If true, thats on the small side of things, but I am hoping I can drill them out if needed.

2 Likes
#166

Good find man. I might pick up some of these as backups myself.

How are you planning on going from the sharkbite solenoid to the 3/4" NPT? Trying to piece that together in my head.

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#167

3/4? Everything I linked is 1/8" MPT or 10-24 or 12-24 thread - I thought.

For the 1/8" nylon nozzles, I already have the 1/4 to 1/8 adapters. The stainless nozzles I ordered are all 10-24. Those will thread straight into the 1/4 tubing.

If something was 3/4 pipe, I think they have an adapter for that too.

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#168

I see the Amazon link shows 1/8" NPT, that makes a LOT more sense. :laughing:

I have no idea how I read that so wrong. Must have 3/4" NPT on the brain this morning.

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#169

Just realized those plastic nozzles are actually 2 for $10 – if you’re already in the $5 / nozzle range have you thought about jumping up to AeroMist or ColdFog? I avoided these initially due to higher cost, but if you’re already looking at that price range these might work better for you. (Sorry I totally forgot I had a giant list of nozzle sources saved.)

AeroMist Low Pressure 303 SS Anti-Drip .012 10/24
https://www.aeromist.com/misting-nozzles/low-pressure-303-ss-anti-drip-misting-nozzle-012-10-24.html

ColdFog Nozzles
http://coldfog.com/cold-fog-products/nozzles/

1 Like
#170

Oh wow! I had not found those two suppliers. Thanks!

I wish you had posted that a couple of days ago! I just ordered nozzles exactly like the ones that Aeromist sells - for almost double the cost! Those are a great price for SS nozzles with anti-drip.

I need to call them in the morning and ask some questions about the drip spring settings, stock status, and shipping costs, etc. I may cancel my other order and try some of these instead.

I cant figure out how to get prices or order anything from ColdFog? Do I need to get a quote from them or how do they work?

As far as cost - Im way over budget now and Ive spent way to much to quit, so Im not going to worry about $3 nozzles verse $5 or even $10 per nozzles. I need to get this working.

I went ahead and ordered the plastic ones because I know they will produce “good enough” droplets in the 100 PSI range that will make fuzzy roots. The only down side is no anti-drip, so they will waste a little more nutes. Its only going to be maybe 10% or so extra flow, and I can live with that if need be.

I would still prefer the anti-drip because it also makes for a more uniform spray quality and crisper on/off times. That should help with smoothing out the environment for the roots and - maybe - make it easier to ride the edge a little more safely or easily. Im going to keep the plastic ones as back up and try to get the SS/anti-drip nozzles to work.

The Aeromist folks have a cataloge that lists mean droplet sizes for the nozzles and they are similar to the specs Ive seen on other sites. If those specs are accurate, they will produce droplets on the small side, but Im thinking that would be better than the way too big I have now.

#171

The new roots on the clone are growing. They are three times as long in one day - and - they have some fuzzy hairs! Not as many as the seedling had and not as long, but still some hairs. Im sure its because the droplet sizes are not as small at the lower pressures Im running now.

Thats still better than I was afraid they would look.

This coming Monday will be a big test of the system. Im going off for a 5 day fishing trip. I am really really hoping I dont get a call from the wife about flooding in the grow room!!! I wont have any new nozzles to install until after I get back. I hope the clones are still alive by then! :slight_smile:

Here is a pic of the limited fuzz.

1 Like
#172

I know man, sorry about that, I totally forgot about these guys when you were asking about nozzles.

I believe you have to find a distributor of their products, since they’re only a manufacturer. I was able to find a number of their nozzles on eBay before I believe.

I hear that – I’m way deeper than I expected initially. I’m still trying to keep per growbed costs to a minimum though because if this all works out I’ve got a 300 site room to change over. The difference between $5 each vs $1 each is nearly $5k in savings for me. (That’s also why I am running with a single solenoid per bed instead of per nozzle.)

I really like their nozzles. I am going to get a few different sets and might even run different nozzles on each of my growbeds so I can get a true side-by-side comparison.

They’re looking good to me! :slight_smile:

1 Like
#173

No worries at all :slight_smile: I emailed the guys I ordered from and they were able to cancel the order no problem. I placed the order for the Aeromist guys, so we will see what they are like soon. Turns out they were not that much cheaper than the other guys, but I got 4 nifty SS swivels for the nozzles. They will help a lot in aiming them in the chamber.

I keep forgetting you are working on a much larger scale than I am.

Just got a notice from Amazon - the plastic nozzles look like they will be here friday, so I will have time to test them before I go.

#174

Im liking those Aeromist folks. I ordered in the wee hours of this morning, got a pre-shipping notice with a tracking number by mid morning, and now it says they will be here Friday!

Thats darn near Amazon Prime speed!!

The first guys I ordered from had not even processed the order yet, so this was a great switch! Thanks for posting those links @SuperiorBuds !!!

I will know by Friday some time if thier specs are good or not.

Ive come up with a better way to watch droplets and get a video of hang time. All it takes is one of those cat toy lazer pointers. With the room lights out, the droplets really show up well in the lazer beam.

The new 100PSI pressures Im running now are only giving me about 12 seconds hang time with a one second burst. Its cool too because I can see the droplets thinning out at the top well before the bottom stops showing them.

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#175

Awesome, glad it’s working out. Now lets hope they’re as good as people say.

That’s a good idea, I’ll see if I can try that myself. I also still need to get in there and measure flow, but since harvest is looking like any day now I’ll wait til I can open the lids and work easier in the chamber.

1 Like
#176

No worries. The system Im using now is working fine, so it just a matter of my curiosity to see if your water behaves similarly.

I decided to go back and compare the roots growing in the LPA system to these new HPA roots. I only have a couple of days to compare so far, but its still interesting.

The LPA roots were growing somewhat faster than the HPA at day two, but were mostly smooth roots. There is just a hint of fuzzy in a few spots.

The HPA roots have a lot more fuz, but are not as long. Dont have any clue if this is really significant or not. I think its too soon to make a call.

This is the first day of real roots for both.

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This is two days later for both.

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1 Like
#177

WooHoo!!! Both sets of the new nozzles arrived. Ive been testing flow rates and taking videos of hang time. I still have numbers to crunch, but first impression is that they both just kill the Hypros Atomizer led me to.

The nozzles are soooooo much better than the Hypro’s.

The nylon nozzles look like they would work great, but the flow rate is kind on the hi side. I need to crunch the numbers, but maybe 4 or 5 times as much as the SS Aero Mist nozzles. Hang time looks awesome, but I need to go over the videos to calc the actual times.

The SS nozzles look to be making much smaller droplets, which is what the specs sheet claimed, but the hang time isnt as much as the plastic ones - but - that may be due to them putting out so much less water on each pulse. Again, I need to analyse the videos.

I really like the SS swivels! I am back to trying my droplet cyclotron idea from earlier in the tread… :smiley:

More to come later, but Id say either of these is a big step up from the Hypros.

I have a small problem to solve though. I want to try the SS nozzles first. I am just threading them into the 1/4" tubing, but They want to leak, so I need to go find some 1/4" clamps…

Here is what they look like side by side. The grey nozzle is the Hypro crap.

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2 Likes
#178

Here you go. The newest tech gadget - the Cyclodropletron!! :smiley:

2 Likes
#179

I dont know if I screwed something up in my testing or what, but the flow rate numbers for the plastic nozzles are way off from the published spec.

They are supposed to deliver .08 oz/sec or .0375 GPM.

The flow rate I measured was .14 GPM or 3.7 times the listed flow rate. I dont think I screwed it up, but I was rushing through it, so maybe? Im not going to repeat the test for now. I need to get the system dialed in so I can go fishing :slight_smile: I will re-visit the test when I get back if anyone wants the data - @SuperiorBuds?

The Aeromist SS nozzles tested out to be pretty much spot on as far as flow rates = .022 GMP per nozzle.

I have three of them setup in the chamber now pointed to produce that swirling cyclotron action in that video above. We will see how the roots like it.

Im still processing hang time videos. Thats a slooooow process…

Ive also lowered the pressures in the accumulator tank. That will ease things for the solenoids and it gives me a slightly larger usable volume in the accum tank. Im at 110 cut ON and 135 cut off, which gives me right at .6 gsllons or about 2.5 times what I had at 120/145

#180

Having the data published will help anyone looking for nozzles in the future, so I say go for it. You’ve done some good testing across a number of different parts and it’ll definitely save someone some time (and money) in the future.

So happy these are looking like they’ll work for you. Did you end up with the exact ones I linked? You just added the extra swivel from them, right? I will probably do the same for my next test, but I’ll seriously need to negotiate a volume discount if I’m going to be up to $8 / nozzle. :slight_smile:

#181

Good point. I will make a point of that.

You linked to the low pressure ones with the .012 orifice. I ordered the same nozzle but with the .024 orifice.

https://www.aeromist.com/low-pressure-ss-303-anti-drip-misting-nozzle-024-x-10-24.html

And yes, I just added the swivels to the order.

https://www.aeromist.com/misting-nozzles/nozzle-extensions/nozzle-swivel-connector-10-24.html

Down the road I will probably order some of the nozzles with the .020 or the .016 orifice to try them out, but these are looking pretty good at the moment. Im getting much better mist distribution and far more uniform “wetness” in different parts of the chamber. These smaller droplets hang better but they also move around a lot better rather than just going straight to the bottom of the chamber.

Watching the hang time videos, its interesting to see how the droplets fade. The top 3"-4" or so goes first of course. That section stays ‘filled’ for only 10 seconds or so, but it takes an additional 30-45 seconds for the level to drop to the 1/2 way point… During that time, you can see waves of droplets appear and disappear in the beam as the mist swirls around the chamber. The bottom 1/4 of the chamber still has droplets floating around for over a minute.

Longer ON times increases all the hang times of course.

#182

Almost forgot. The only thing I dont like about these nozzles is the anti-drip valves performance. They are better than the Hypros, but still not what I was hoping for. The Hypro’s opened at about 20 psi. These are supposed to open at 35, but they actually start to open at closer to 30, and they are not all the same. One is closer to 25 and the other one is more like 35+.

Im going to look at them more closely and see if there is an easy way to increase the spring pressure. Maybe adding a small washer inside someplace. I may order some of the 70 PSI springs from the other guys and see if they fit.