I actually find with all things being equal, the dna of the plant determines the final sprawl of the root ball.
My example is I had these two strains I was growing, one always chunked the bucket full of roots right down to the bottom. The other one? only ever filled half the bucket, even though it yielded better. If you can find some kind of link between the root ball and some kind of productivity change in the plant… I salute you, sir. It’s a question that has always been on my mind.
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Thats a good question. Its pretty well accepted that trimming a root ball, when transplanting in soil grows, is ok, and even beneficial in some ways. The theory is that it stimulates new root growth into the fresh soil in the larger container. I think the generally accepted safe amount to trim is around 10%.
I have seen that work in my grows. Trimming the tap root does stimulate side growth - for at least a while. I have never tried any other trimming - other than killing them off by forgetting to turn the nozzles back ON!!!
But - it seems to me that any cutting is doing some harm and will slow the plant down to some degree.
On the other hand, that may be a perfectly ok trade-off - especially if your nozzles are about to be over grown. Better to do some controlled, limited harm to avoid a greater harm.
In your case - your chamber will have the nozzle on the bottom shooting up? And you have all the pants spread out around the outside edges?
You might consider a couple of things, but it will depend on how long your plants roots get as they grow. I think your doing vegies? If so I have no clue.
Anyway, if they tend to be shorter, smaller root masses, you may have no worries at all. Just fine tune your spraying times/flow rates so the roots dont crowd out into the center and block the mist travel path to the top of the chamber.
I have never been able to do that with 100% success - mainly because there has always been a big difference between the top of the chamber and the bottom as far as mist density. The top sections always has less mist and want to grow more sideways while the lower sections want to grow more down.
The other thing with my roots is that they want to pile up in layers on the bottom of the chamber. I have had as much as a 6" thick layer on the bottom. So if your roots grow long, you may want to raise the nozzle up a few inches off the bottom or have some way to move it easily. Maybe plan to be able to change it to top down spraying if need be?
As far as cutting the tap root and what effect it has, this brings into discussion another point of using clones (that don’t have tap roots right?) and whether they may actually be more or less suited for aero chambers with some benefit of cutting roots?
As far as my setup, I have done exactly what you have said, I thought I showed a picture, but here is my nozzle on a 8”? pvc cap that raises it up off the chamber floor:
And, as far as top or bottom, all my pvc 45s on the sides are sort of temporary (not fixed), so I could flip the whole chamber and also flip each individual pipe/plant holder.
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I didnt know that. I only grew clones one time and they were either in perlite hempy buckets, or three other types of hydro with different media that hid the roots, so I never got to see if they had a tap root or not.
It would be interesting to try a clone, but Im only growing autos now and they dont clone.
That solution never would have occurred to me! Great idea!
The only thing is I guess I would have to make a drain connect on both sides… I think I’m likely to go with bottom up tho when I finally get to it 
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woooohoooo! Fuzzy hairs on the new babies already! Never had them this soon.
Control box is almost rdy - just need to hook the backup batteries, lights, fans, dehumidifier and the inside the grow room small control box and I’m good to go.
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Have I mentioned yet that I hate you? 
Unfortunately (for my ego), that is some amazingly neet work there! Very well done!
Plan C for starting seeds in the system.
I decided the synthetic fabric diapers sucked for starting seeds, and the cotton diapers were not that much better. They are both a lot of trouble, plus you are stuck with a heavy piece of fabric entangled in the roots hanging under the foam puck. The last one may have even started growing some yellow algae, so forget that technique.
It occurred to me that if I just left the seeds sandwiched in paper towels long enough, they might grow tails long enough to put directly in a puck. I could also maybe support the paper towels vertically so the roots would grow straight down instead of curling around. Then I saw a trick that Mephisto uses to pop their seeds - put them into paper towels and put that into a DVD case. Bingo! I could use the DVD case to hold the paper towels flat, and vertical.
I started with three of @Sebrings Waterstone CBD auto’s so I could pick the most vigorous of the three.
I DID NOT DO A PRE-SOAK in water. Put them in a damp paper towel, then inside a DVD case with a dark cover to block light.
Then I supported the DVD case so it sits vertically on top of my light fixture. Thats the warmest place in my tent - about 82F on average. I didnt really like that movie anyway 
24 hours later:
The morning of the second day:
Evening of the second day:
As you can see, the seedlings have been growing quite well. The middle one is clearly winning, and is also almost out of its helmet, so it got picked. You can also see I cut down a standard foam puck more or less in half thickness wise. I also carved off a little extra in the very center so as much of the new root will be exposed to the mist as possible. I hopefully left enough foam to support the stem and allow the cotyledons to grow UP while the root grows down. At this stage I dont want to squeeze the new root, but it does need a little friction to hold the new stem in place. After the baby gets bigger I will put it into a normal puck.
By the way, I soaked the seeds in the same water I am currently spraying in the system - PH 5.8 and EC 0.4 or 200 PPM. The normal wisdom has been to soak seeds in un-PH’ed tap water. However, it seems to me that, in nature, seeds dropped in soil would normally be starting with nutes in place already and the PH at what ever it happens to be. Plus, this should eliminate any stress from that direction.
Here it is in the puck in the net pot.
I put a piece of wet toilet paper on the puck, then covered it with a mason jar as a humidity dome. The baby is going from a 100% humidity environment so I want to ease it down slowly as it grows.
Its been just under 48 hours since I put the seeds in the paper towels. This is by far the fastest I have ever gone from seed to system. Its also just about the fastest any seeds have poped for me.
Now the question is - will it actually work? The baby has been in the system for about 20 minutes so far…
Edit: Its hard to see, but the two lower babies actually had some fuzzy hairs inside the paper towels. Unfortunately, I smashed them all flat while putting the middle baby in the foam puck. I expect them to come back fast though.
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Im really liking this DVD case technique for germing seeds.
After I put the first baby in the system yesterday, I left the other two seeds in the case to continue growing. This is what they look like tonight. The lower one seems to be having issues, but the top one looks great.
I decided to go ahead and add it to my system. I had an old hole in the chamber that I had covered up that was almost in a good place, so I stuck this baby in the other half of the foam puck I had cut down. Now I have three babies in the system instead of two. The positioning isnt ideal for two nozzles, but Im ok with that for this run. It will be interesting to see how this works.
The first one I put in yesterday looks like this tonight.
And the new one I just put in. Next time I try this, I may wait an extra day.
Both are under humidity domes.
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grrrrrrrrr
I love my cats, but some days are better than others. This is whats left of BOTH of the Waterstone babies after I turn my back for all of 2 minutes. She has never tried to eat any of them before. Maybe because these were so young? Evil cat!
Oh no! Pesky kittens!
I assume u were not able to salvage any of hem?
I’ve a bit off the forum as I’m quite busy at work and have very little time to work on the system. I only manage to install the control box (turned out a bit messy for my taste, but I will neat it up over time) and test the remote management of the temp and humidity sensors as well as setup the lights timers.
I hope to get some time this weekend to hook up the small control box that is going to be placed inside the grow room to control the solenoids, de/humidifiers.
@anon32470837 any tip of advice on the nutrients storage and how to deliver them to the second smaller container. I know I can use a water pump to push the water to the second container from the main one and a autofill floating valve to stop the water. Just wondering how did u solved that.
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She ate the two best ones from that batch. After that, I started three more of the same Waterstone seeds, and put two of them into the system, but one of them turned out to be a whorled phyllotaxy baby - meaning it has three leaves on each node instead of two. I had one of those in an earlier grow. They are interesting plants, but my last one stayed stunted and never did well. The other one came out with just a single leaf! That Im pretty sure was due to some sort of mold that developed before I put it into the system.
Anyway, I tossed both of them a few days ago and started some new ones with some changes to the germination process - mainly keeping the paper towel inside the DVD case much drier. I just put the two new ones in the system early this morning and they are still having some transfer shock.
The second - now trashed - pair.
The newest additions.
Messy?? LOL You do some of the cleanest work I have seen. Your messy makes my neat look like pig slop! 
You’re talking about the small siphon tank that feeds the nozzles?
The location and height of that tank is determined by the siphon height you want for the nozzles. That siphon height is one part of what determines the droplet size, and the over all flow rate. Higher siphon heights means smaller droplets AND lower flow rates. Shorter siphon heights mean larger droplets and higher flow rates.
You will need to do some testing to see what your actual flow rates are at various heights and air pressures, while noting hang times. Then do some math to see where your chamber needs to be with various timing settings.
By the way, when you are testing flow rates, do it with the nozzles set to the timing you think you will end up at - or as close as you can get. Changing just the ON/OFF timing all by itself will change the flow rate even if the air pressure and siphon height are held constant.
My nozzles are positioned as low as I can get them in my chamber because I want them shooting UP. That puts them close to the floor of my grow room. That in turn dictates that my siphon tank is also close to the floor because the water level in the siphon tank must always be below the tips of the nozzles. Other wise, the tank will just drain out all the time.
I put my rez - which is an old ice chest that holds about 10 gallons max - up on top of my work bench. That means I cab just let gravity feed the siphon tank - which has a small float valve inside to regulate the water level. I also have a 200 mesh filter in the water line between the rez and siphon tank.
After a lot of testing, I like the siphon height to be as short as possible - about 1". This is due to a combination of things that are probably unique to my chamber and situation, but mainly the fact that Im only running two nozzles. If I was running three nozzles for example, I would probably increase the siphon height, but it would be mainly to reduce flow rates a bit. The air pressure has a much larger effect on droplet sizes than the siphon height.
In your case, your nozzles are mounted part way up the sides of your root chamber, so you will need to set the small tank at a height so that that water level gives you the siphon height you want. I would suggest making it adjustable. You may very well change your mind about whats best after some testing and use. More than once I have done the testing, and the math and come up with the perfect set up only to find that the roots wanted things a bit different. The roots always get the final say 
If you can’t get the main rez tank high enough above the siphon tank for a gravity feed, then you will need to pump the water. Id recommend a low pressure pump so you dont have issues with a leaking float valve, but I dont know how you will regulate when it turns on without some sort of water level sensor/switch.
One other point - Id keep the siphon tank on the small side. Thats mainly so the water changes/gets refreshed often. I have discovered that the chlorine Ive been using in my tank has a greater effect on fuzzy hairs than I thought. Even low PPM levels seem to really suppress new fuzzy hairs. For the last few weeks I have stopped using any chlorine at all. Im now just keeping the main rez as cold as I can using frozen water bottles. My upper temp limit is 60F. That cold water warms up some as it travels from the rez to the siphon tank. It warms up a lot more once it gets to the siphon tank because it is inside the heated space around my root chamber. That space stays in the 70F-75F range all the time in order to keep my root chamber from getting too cold.
Anyway - all that is leading up to the fact that the water in my siphon tank is warm enough to support bacterial growth. Thats why I want a fairly rapid turn over. At my current flow rate the 1 liter volume gets used up in about every 4 hours. Later when I lower the flow rate, it will be in the 6 to 8 hour range. I would actually like to see a more rapid change over, so re-doing that tank so it hold less water is on my to-do list.
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An up-date on starting seeds in the system. the new technique of using paper towels in a DVD case is working, but it also has some issues. if I keep the paper towel too wet, the new leaves can develop mold. The biggest issue from my stand point is that there is still transfer shock when they are finally put into the system.
In some ways, the other technique of using cotton pads worked better because there was zero transfer shock, but it had other problems I didnt like.
So now Im back to trying to come up with a way to start the seeds in the system from day one to eliminate any transfer shock. More testing to follow…
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Im looking for help and/or inspiration from you guys on this seed starting thing. I really want a way to start the seeds in the system from day one. Starting them outside and then transferring them at some later day causes transfer shock in one form of another. All of my earlier tries at starting them in the system also had issues in one form of another - mostly having to do with over wet and heavy cotton or fabric.
Here is my current thinking. I want to use some sort of mesh or net material to hold the seed in place under the foam puck. It needs to be held tightly against the bottom of the puck and the hole in the puck will need to be enlarged so the seed head can get up through it easily. The mesh also needs to be relatively easy to tear so the roots wont have any difficulty growing bigger. At the moment Im thinking pantyhose.
Anyone have any other ideas or suggestions?
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I start mine in a mason jar with a paper towel. After it pops I poke a hole in the paper towel and let it gain verticality until I put it into hydro. It only shocks the plant if I let dry out due to foolishness.
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I found some light weight fiberglass fabric left over from my sailplane building days. Its not ideal, but I think it can be made to work. It is easy to tease the strands apart so Im pretty sure the roots wont have much trouble pushing through, but it will need to be tested. Its almost too easy to get apart though which results in lots of loose fibers, so Im not 100% sure it will work.
My daughter is bringing me some old pantyhose to try out. She is having serious doubts about my sexuality, and/or mental condition in the mean time though 
Some pics of the fiberglass trial fitting.
I plan to cover the seed with a light proof cover until it starts growing up to the top of the puck. Thats to prevent any algae from growing on the fiberglass or the new seedling… Once it gets tall enough, I will install a collar of some sort around the stem to keep light out. After it gets tall enough I will move the baby to a regular foam puck. At that point Im hoping I will be able to do that without too much stress to the roots.
We will see. I’ll post pics of the pantyhose trials if that looks like it will work better.
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here’s a photo, but in a salad container. Organic lettuce?
fried the stupid triploid one but it survived I didn’t get it in the water.
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That sounds very similar to what I have been doing with the DVD case trick. The most recent variation on that is I have been folding down one side of the towel so the new leaves are not trapped in wet towel. It still isnt ideal in my case because its a huge change in environment from the towel to a mist environment. Plus, I have been doing them when they are really small, which makes it tough to do that without touching the new root and squishing any fuzzy hairs that have developed. I do like that keeping the DVD case on edge makes the new root grow straight down before transplanting it.
How big do you let your grow before putting them in your setup? I forget - are you running DWC or?
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I slipped that post past you… yah dwc. about 2.5 inches?
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