I always get their scraggle roots under the surface of the water to begin with. Then let the roots grow out before I lower the water level.
That’s what became the crazy franken plant.
That’s what became the crazy franken plant.
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Thats how big I used to let them get when I was starting in dixie cups with perlite.
Ok, what are those purple things in the earlier pic above that almost look like foam pucks - but dont? Also, what is that bowl looking thing they fit into with the bottom slit? Ive never seen either of those before, and you got my curiosity up 
Ok, here are the kinky pantyhose pics. Dont worry, they are safe for work 
The pantyhose is much easier to work with as far as getting in inserted into the puck and getting it tight, etc. But it is far more difficult to poke a hole in it, which has me worried about the baby root making it through on its own. I poked a bunch of small holes with an exacto knife, but I still have some doubts. The other thing is Im sure its going to hold a lot more water than the fiber glass and be impossible to untangle from the roots without doing major damage.
So, I think Im going to try the fiberglass first and see how that goes. One of the two new babies I just started in the system is well behind the other one, so its getting the axe as soon s a new seed starts to pop. I have it soaking in some water now. I plan to put the new seed in as soon as it shows signs of cracking.
Yah those are just neoprene pucks, the bottom one is cup shaped.
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The newest seed grew a tail, so I put it in the fiberglass modified puck tonight. We will see how well this works out over the next few days. I am keeping the puck covered with a light proof, air tight cover to hold in humidity and prevent any algae from getting started.
I have to say it again. Im really liking this DVD case technique for starting seeds. If you dont get the paper towel too wet, its really fast and every new root has come in straight instead of all curled up.
However, I just had a new idea for starting seeds that I think will be even better as far as starting them in an aero system. It might be a bit slower, but not by much.
The new plan is to modify a puck the same way I did above for the fiberglass trick, but I wont be starting the seed in the DVD case, then transferring it to the system after it sprouts. I will put the seed in the hole on top of the fiberglass, then fill that little pocket with perlite, and cover it up.
All along with each of these new techniques, I have been thinking that I will need to transfer the baby to a regular puck after it gets big enough. It just occurred to me today that I wont have to do that. Ive been thinking that it was the puck that was holding the plant in place, but thats not really true. The roots will get all tangled up in the net pot itself and provide all the support the plant needs. If the baby gets a bit tippy before that happens, I can always wedge some foam in around the stem to keep it straight.
I’ll know how well this iteration is working in a few days…
Man, for some reason I stopped getting notifications from this thread but I changed it from tracking to watching so that shouldn’t be a problem anymore…
The fiberglass looks cool, how did you get it to stick to the puck? Did you just wedge it into all the cuts?
I feel like you don’t have to use perlite, I feel like it should work great on that fiberglass to develop long enough to transfer to the puck…
One question I have to ask, it’s kind of a noob thing that I’m sure you know of but I just wanted to make sure, when you have been moving those seedlings around, you haven’t ever been grabbing them by the tap root have you?
Also, I think you might want to revisit your siphon tank no chlorine setup… and I’m wondering if you might have some bacteria going on slowing your memphisto because of it…
My thoughts are, because you are not fully emptying your siphon tank (because of float valve), you will never truly have total fresh from the cold solution in there… you could very well have some ppm in there that is decently old for all you know, and in a warm condition without chlorine maybe you could possibly have some growth?
Also, maybe because you are using up some of it with your sprays, maybe it’s not as easy to see it fully grow out in the siphon tank?
Also, if your fiberglass or pantyhose doesn’t work, that hemp mat mentioned earlier might be another good choice
Yes. Its kind of a pain, but it works to hold the fiberglass tight against the bottom of the puck. I didnt want any chance the seed head could get caught on the bottom side of the puck.
Yeah, Im having second thoughts on the perlite too, but it still has some plus points that might be worth it. I will probably try it anyway after this grow is over and before I start the next one.
I did my best not to tough the tap root but they have been so small, that I did end up touching them to some degree with the tiny ones. Even with the larger canna-cheese there was still a lot of touching going on. Thats one of the big reasons to try this new technique. Im not sure how bad the stress is from just touching a root. Roots have to force their way through soil all the time, so I dont see much difference in a few light touches. I think the change in environmental conditions is the big stress factor - maybe
Im actually pretty confident there is no bacterial growth anywhere in the system - at least so far. I judge that several ways. First and foremost is the roots themselves. Even though I am running the system at a heavy flow rate with lots of direct spray on the roots - for the new babies - there are still new fuzzy’s showing up on the canna roots. Just as importantly - they are pure bright white and growing at a good rate. The other thing I do on every rez change (5 to 7 days) is rub my fingers inside the siphon tank and the rez. The walls/floor will start to feel slimy as soon as there is any bacterial growth, and they feel perfectly fine.
Fuzzy pic due to the dense mist I have running at the moment, but you get the idea. Its not bottle brush fuzzy but pretty much every root has fuzzy hairs to one degree or another. You cant really tell from this pic, but I use a bright LED flash light to look at them and they are pure white.
The key thing if you’re not running sterile is to keep temps low. Im now keeping the rez under 60F at max and most of the time its down around 48-50F.
But - I agree there is risk with the siphon tank being in a warm area. Thats why I want to reduce the capacity so the turn over is faster. I have a new float valve on the way so I can build a new tank before changing out the old one. That will mean less down time for the babies with no mist. They can handle up to probably 30 minutes to 1 hour with little to no problem, but Id rather keep it short as possible.
My goal is to have zero medium of any king stuck on the roots - especially anything that will stay 100% saturated all the time.
With the perlite, I will be able to gently poke it down through the fiberglass and get rid of it once the seedling gets big enough. Still, Id prefer no medium at all.
Maybe you could gently try to grab the seed or the first leaves with a tweezer?
You might be right about it not making much of a difference, but it would just be another thing to rule out.
@anon32470837, for the sterile env, have you considered using a UV. You can put it on a timer to run for couple of min every couple of hours. That should kill bacteria and algea.
Personally I’m thinking of using
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B001KP9B2W/ref=nav_timeline_asin?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
So that it can mix the water from time to time so it dont get stale.
As for starting the seeds, I know there is a stun period for a day or so, but I start mine in paper towel or normal river (small) rocks - the ones they sell in home depot for couple of $. I live them there til the drop their baby leaves and get a bit stronger to survive the initial shock.
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I’m actually really curious as to where the bio-film is coming from? I mean…how does it live? It must feed on something to survive.
Sorry, Im a little stoned, but you lost me on that. Im not sure why I would be grabbing the seed or what is being ruled out?
I used to be into aquariums and for several years I had a reef tank setup, so I have a fair amount of experience with UV sterilization. Reef tanks are the gold standard for filtration and sterilization because they are so fragile as an eco system.
Because of I had used them in the past, I tried two of the cheap ones like the first one in your link. They failed so miserably that extra algae actually grew ON the dam lights!! So I would avoid those at all costs.
the second one you linked actually has some decent reviews on a couple of reef tank sites, so it should work ok.
Im not sure how well it would work on a timer though. The UV sterilizers all have minimum flow requirements for them to be effective. Thats because they operate at the low power levels, which means they do not kill instantly. Some bacteria and algae are tougher than others, and they all usually take more than one trip through the unit to kill them all the way. That particular one for example I think lists 60 GPH as a minimum. The idea is to circulate all the water through the unit repeatedly. If you look at the reviews, they all talk about it taking days to clear up the water - and thats running 24/7.
On the flip side - our rez tanks dont have bright lights shining in them, or actual fish crapping in them 24/7, and tons of rotting fish food either, so short run times may work ok. I think I would lean more toward a 5-10 minute run every hour or so and see how it goes. It would depend on the flow rate of your pump. You want all of the water in the rez to cycle through several times.
Yeah, thats more or less how I have been doing it, but Id like to eliminate that day or so of shock.
It looks like this newest technique is working pretty well. The new seedling started to lift up off the fiberglass after just 7 hours, and the root had more than doubled in length, and started showing fuzzy hairs.
When I first put it in:
7 Hours later:
I’ll take some new pics later.
If you mean slime in the rez, Im assuming it lives off the nutes, water and O2 - or did you mean something else? If you mean what is the source - in my case, I live in a rain forest - tons of decomposing pine needles, etc. Plus it rains like all the dam time, so lots of mold spores, fungus, etc just hanging around every where. Im sure some bugs come in with my well water too.
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When I said seed, I meant grabbing it by the shell or the first tiny leaves instead of the tap root best you can… by rule out I meant, if you don’t touch the tap root, you can rule out that as being a potential reason for slower growth.
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Ah! Good idea 
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usually it’s like a little ecosystem where one little bugger feeds another, but something organic has to start the chain. For example in my system, algae starts the cascade, but if I block all light, no buggers can thrive. If I just leave a bucket of water sitting in the corner, water mold forms on the surface. But in the hydro system, nothing seems to be thriving at pathogen levels in the dark cold nutrient solution.
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Holy tin foil batman! Space ship is right. That looks like a NASA clean room! I dont think I have ever seen a grow room with foil walls and floor. Just wow!
So, stick some victims - er ah, I mean babies - in there and get that ship launched 
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Yeah, in my case those little buggers are already in the air, soil, water etc. Rain forest = mold, algae, etc etc etc.
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For sure, the little pathogens are everywhere. I have multiple potential pathogens just floating in the water. Except! I have to change the conditions in the hydro system to allow them to grow to pathological levels. So I know, that avoiding light exposure and heat, I can defeat 3 kinds of pathogens, algae, rotifers and pythium fungus. Nast has trouble growing at 18C/13ppm Oxygen with no light. Even the water molds can’t grow. I am curious about the condition that is triggering pathogen growth! I mean… if you take a pitcher of water and put it in the fridge for a week is there an explosion of pathogens? Is your reservoir anaerobic? etc. You have to zero in on the condition that triggers their growth as opposed to just barely surviving as usual. OK! Here’s my non-hydroponic real world example. The chicken coop has an auto-watering hopper. It’s kept warm by an element in the base, and eventually outside in the freezing ass cold - a biofilm of pathogens will grow and make the whole thing slimy. Inputs are light, heat and chicken turds. A perfect environment for pathogens. Don’t drink the brown water!!!
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wait wait wait… somehow somewhere this got off track a bit. I DO NOT HAVE any sort of bacterial growth in my system. None. Zero. Nada.
I have been keeping the water in my rez below 18C/60F since I dropped the chlorine. A lot of the time its below 10C/50F.
I have said that there is a CHANCE or risk of some infection starting in the siphon tank because it stays around 70F-74F.
BUT - there is NO infection of any kind at this time - and there has not been since I dropped ALL organics from my nutes and went to pure salts.
So… I do NOT have a problem.
I am still slightly concerned that I could have a problem in the siphon tank down the line at some point, but Im not that worried about it.
If I did have a problem, it would be easy to tell.
1)The rez would smell and/or get cloudy and/or I would see strands of algae, and/or have slime, etc etc. The rez is always crystal clear, smells fresh and zero slime.
2) The roots would tell me by turning color and not being bright white. Also, fuzzy hair die first when there is an infection. Infected roots do not have fuzzy hairs.
The roots are very happy and getting happier every day now that I am reducing the flow rates. Even with direct spray from the nozzles, and very hi flow rates I have been running to keep the newest babies happy, I am still getting lots of fuzzy hairs.
I’ll post an up-date in a bit.
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Mini review of the newest seed starting technique - it works quite well but needs tweaking.
The new seedling seemed to adapt to the system with virtually no down time. The root and the stem grew rapidly from the start. Root length more than doubled in 7 hours and has kept up that pace. The stem portion also grew, but it had trouble getting up above the fiberglass.
I think the trouble was that the fiberglass didnt provide enough friction or traction to keep the stem growing UP. The weight of the wet root seemed to be pulling the whole thing back down. The individual fibers were just too loose because I had teased them apart before putting it in the puck. Next time I plan to just put it in without doing that. The individual fibers are held in place with minute amounts of an adhesive. Once you break the bond the fibers can move apart easily.
Anyway, I had to reach in and pull the seed out and put it in one of the normal pucks. I did use tweezers and did not touch the root at all. As far as I can tell, there was virtually no stress induced because the sucker is growing extremely well.
It could be that I just lucked into a very vigorous seed, but Im going to give credit to this new trick
Its only been in the system for 3 days since the seed cracked.
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