The super silver haze clone that went around early 2000 era was the big budded monster shown above , I grew that exact plant and had coffee can size colas trying to grow up past the lights, wasn’t impressed with the qaulity though and moved on. I definitely remember hearing about the different haze plants and that he lost one early on I think the c but I’m not sure, there has always been contraversy and disagreement about the exact history of the haze lines where there from who had what and so on , I’m not sure that it will ever be agreed upon or that it really matters at this point. I’m normally pretty obsessive about genetics and there history but some things were so long ago and undocumented it’s just not possible to ever come to a 100% agreement on facts, if you know something to be true because you were there then nothing can change what you know but the ability to convince others of it’s truth is whole different hurdle that often lacks the evidence to confirm. The one thing I don’t like about his plant is the division it causes due to arguments over genetics who had or did what and so on. We’re all working off the work of those before us so no one person can claim that they are completely responsible for a line. Maybe for preserving it , or stabilizing it, renaming it, but the building blocks come from those before us.
There are people that regardless of your personal opinion of them have contributed a great deal of there life to this plant and are now old timers who have zero respect for the corporate model that has taken over, and zero interest in having there work decimated by new pollin chucking hype breeders. The true rebels and risk takers of the past are a rare breed that most new comers could not relate to now a days. When your whole life could be ruined for a joint let alone breeding and or distributing cannabis genetics.
Connisuer had a dbl c haze and one more cannot remember what it was thou
Long story short my point is that just because somebody can’t remember or produce proof of things from over 30 years ago dosent mean we should freak out and assume they are intentionally misconstruing facts , I can’t remember the names of a couple different girls I’ve dated let alone every plant I’ve had when and where it came from lol
I have friends who can’t remember who we got blue dream from and it happened at there house from a well known member of the community at the time, was either Kyle or George and literally non of us can remember because they were both around that same summer and we all traded plants often and shared what ever the best thing somebody had or found.
I see there’s a few out there that know and understand why some of us goats are the way we are on genetics.
We lived in a time period that most will never understand.
Where most nowadays are taking it for gimme.
And you can see it everyday, back in the day ya didn’t have the net to hide behind nor did you just go up after not even previous knowing the person about weed or genetics.
It’s all free wheeling now baby
Yeah it’s really hard to explain the fact that you basically had to give up your life for the plant or hide it’s presence in your life like it was the launch codes for a nuke , often both. Blacklisted by family for becoming one of them criminal types , now growers are considered a great tax base and stock market investment. If somebody told me cannabis would be on the stock market 20 years ago I would have spit out my drink with laughter.
What’s next there going to actually listen about physcodelics being theraputical oh wait that’s on the stock market as well , there buying the ticket and taking the ride as we speak, well a much smaller ride but they got there training wheels on
Still looked down upon, still have to accept it.
Lots of us fore runner’s not receiving respect by these newbies coming in who think they know it all.
Based on wrong info I see it quite often and held as gospel.
Oh well it’s like anything else that goes on these days.
Yeah sometimes I try to chime in but I have already grown tired of watching the same old debunked mythes come back to life and spread threw a whole new crowd some to become carved in stone , there are a amazing amount of people now who now claim to have found or made these genetics when they were only maybe 17-19 years old. Now there were definitely people that age involved back then but mostly only the kids or relatives of somebody and only as field workers or mostly off site trimmers. Seems alot of people leave out who came before them or claim to just not know.
Very few people were close enough to any growers or even suppliers to have just forgot who they were, prob best not to say but to make up likes is total bs. Most are in prison or dead and can’t speak up for them selves or just don’t care and have no idea a online sea of people are arguing over there past. It’s actually pretty weird to think about.
So many gave so much too so many. With not many realizing it
Yeah and nobody used to say anybodies names , it was beyond forbidden so to see everybody arguing over who was who and who did what and when and expect proof is silly , you better not have proof that would make me wonder what the hell you were doing back then documenting things, these things just didn’t happen and if they did it probably wasn’t for the best reasons.
I took one picture of me in front of a plant ever back then and it was full mask and I still threw it away out of fear, once it actually got developed I started tripping hard that the photo place was going to have me followed spy status,
It’s still weird to me that I shop at the grow store in my town , that used to be a drive couple hours away and take the long way back kind of shopping event
If he quit heroin in the 80s i doubt it would still have much bearing on his personality or ability to tell the truth 20-30 years later
Sounds like a form of ptsd, have suffered from the same thing.
Lol
Posted by Nevil -
The stock that I got from Sam was 69’/ 70’. He told me it was 60’/70’ and warned me of poor germination results. The various batches were labeled and dated. All indications are that he was telling the truth. He was also reluctant to sell because of limited stock.
Is anyone suggesting that either he or I are lying about this?
N.
Posted by Nevil -
Sorry, that was a typo. I meant 69’/70’.
As I said, he was reluctant to sell, but he needed money.
The bags and labeling looked at least 15 years old. The germination rates were consistant with seeds of this age. And most importantly, I was not aware of any significance of these dates. If he said they were from 76’, I still would have been interested. No, if he was lying, the seeds would have been older and not bred by him. The benefit in this case, would be that he could claim authorship. Otherwise, who benefits?
Please explain more fully the reasons for your suspicions.
Posted by Nevil -
Well Bigherb, I wouldn’t swear on a kilo of Haze Hash, that he told me that he grew them himself.
I seem to remember one batch had a number of years mixed together something like '66,'67,'68. A prominent ancestor was a thing called “Burning Bush”. If Sam didn’t grow burning bush then the person that did will be able to tell us more.
Everything useful was from before 1970. The one plant that came up from '70 batch, Omega, was at best 25% haze and didn’t make the grade.
N.
Posted by Nevil -
I remember the Catalogue of Seeds
It was in a High Times.
You raise some interesting questions Bigherb, but not ones that I can answer. My guess is that Sam got these seeds from an old Master. One thing I am convinced of is that these seeds were part of his working gene bank and were irreplaceable. He was reluctant to sell.
I also clearly remember that the first 6 plants came from batches dated prior to 1970.
As I said before, the plants were hybrids. By all means, see if you can get to the bottom of this. I have given my testemony.
N.
Posted by Nevil -
Here is a quote from Sam the skunkman made on ICMAG in 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman
But maybe he meant seeds from 1969? And not grown until the 80’s? To be honest I do not know.
-SamS
Duh!
And so there is no further confusion, I have never met the Haze bros and I never got a useful haze clone from anybody.
If you want me to speculate (I know you do), I would say that the seeds that I bought, were seeds that he got off his neighbours (haze bros.) with the admonition not to give them to anyone. He sold them to me and now he’s trying to cover his arse, by saying that the sale was conditional. Can you believe it, selling seeds to a seed company that were 15+ years old with the warning that none might come up, but if they do I couldn’t use them? That sounds like a deal that I’d go for (sarcasm). Remember this was a deal in '84 for thousands of dollars between 2 guys strapped for cash.They say that if you smell a skunk, you might think that it’s full of shit.
Well, O.K., I made that up.
N.
Posted by Nevil -
Yeah, I’ve heard Sam whining before about how he should really get a royalty from everyone who he sold seeds to who used his genetics, 50% for pure lines and 25% for hybrids. This is after he sold you something for more than the price of gold in the first place. By his own admission, he didn’t start working with Haze until the 70’s. All the good ones I grew were from prior to 1970, so whose seeds were they, or is Sam a secret Haze brother. It seems that Sam feels that he deserves a lot of respect for getting seeds from one competent guy and selling them to another. Indeed, it may well be his finest achievement.I got 7 plants out of a couple of thousand seeds and they were all different. So which ones were the pure ones exactly! Royalties indeed, I think I’ll call him 'Monsanto Sam".
N.
Found here https://mrnice.nl/forum/threads/grai…id.4345/page-4
This is what Nevil posted he was there .
Nevil has put his Haze story to paper it will be posted in time.
Not knocking the rest of what you are saying by no means I’ve read enough paperwork in handcuffs to know a statement is a statement and a snitch is a snitch fucked up that he approached the cops over something unrelated to nevil someone stealing a recipe sounds like this guy was all around a fucking fool and snitch piece of shit i hope his life is a cancer
Hi Hempy,
I hope you’re having a nice day.
I hate to say this flat out, but I know that Nevil was still using heroin into the 90s, because I know people he used it with. I also know that Mario Lap was getting heroin from Nevil, which is why Mario was doing his bidding and trying to assassinate the character of Skunkman Sam.
I have actually been in Mario Lap’s house in Amsterdam with another friend of Mario’s, because we were organizing our activist efforts through the “Drugs Peace House” together and I know of his heroin habit. I have another friend who worked at the Greenhouse coffee shop in the red light, who told me that the only time he met Mario, was when Mario came to come get heroin from Nevil at the cafe in the 90’s.
I know what I have seen with my own eyes and not from reading a BS forum.
I’ve heard the same stories that you’re retyping now and I said flat out that I don’t believe them anymore. Which is the whole point of what I’m saying, when I first arrived in Amsterdam I was told one set of facts by Nevil and the Dronkers about Haze (and other genetics) that turned out to be such total bullshit.
And let me repeat this one more time because it seems to be lost in this conversation, but I don’t know at one point or what year, did Nevil actually learn who the real snitch (COGO) was in his case. Because for quite a while in the 90 and beyond, Nevil went after Sam because he outwardly stated that Sam was DEA and turned him in. That boldfaced lie turned out to be NOT AT ALL true and the character assassination against Sam was so freaking wrong.
The seed bank catalogs don’t add up, I don’t believe that Haze would not have been entered into the catalog in 1985, 1986, or 1987 if he was actually working with Haze genetics. All the other genetics that Nevil begot from Sam in 1984 made its way into the catalog in 1985, why not Haze?
The other obvious bullshit that I have to point out:
Sam had been making seeds by the kilo through the 70s, why the funk would he have not have (easily) made IBL seeds of original Haze? Every grower on OG understands this.
We are talking about the same Sam who brought kilos of seeds to Amsterdam, but we are to believe from Nevil that Sam didn’t make kilos of original Haze seeds? Put down the Kool Aid and pass me what you are smoking as NO grower would believe that.
Where do you think that the kilos of original Haze seeds that the Green Team (Wernard, Old Ed, Sam) had and Positronics had after came from? Ol Ed told me that he first got Original Haze from Sam when Sam came out to Amsterdam and Old Ed told me that Sam had kilos of seeds of everything. Wernard told me the same story of Haze, as Wernard also sold original Haze seeds because he got them from Sam by the kilo. And it’s not like Old Ed and Wernard were just seed customer’s of Sam’s as was Nevil, they actually worked together. They actually offered up the money to fly Sam and his family out to Amsterdam. They had a close working relationship, but you expect me to discredit their word and believe a guy who I know was high on heroin while telling people he wasn’t? Give me a freaking break.
Sam told me straight out that he had been keeping original Haze as an IBL since he first got it. Sam treasured Haze and did not want to either lose it or contaminate it with outside genetics. Which would make sense to any grower on OG. He also told me that he had been doing it from the 70’s and through the 80s, which is how he has barrels full of seeds and I mean freaking huge barrels of beautiful seeds.
imho, Nevil was trying to ride the legend of Haze that already existed and did a damn good job of it, especially considering he only had two male plants to work with. Bravo. The Dronkers are now rich because of it.
At the end of the day, it is Sam who has the genetics in his hand. Nevil only had a couple male plants and one shitty female according to Nevil. (3 plants out of how many seeds? Come on…) But I don’t even believe the shitty female thing. I don’t believe that crossing two Haze plants together would make “hay” and I don’t believe that Nevil stopped using heroin in the 80s because I know otherwise.
I despise people in this industry who take credit for other peoples work and malign stories to make themselves out as the heroes and other people as villains as Nevil did with Sam.
The truth is that Sam had way more experience growing, he had the genetics, he had written an article in 1979 that was so well put together, that we are about to re-publish the 40 year old article titled, Sun, Soil, Seeds & Soul, written by Sam in GROW magazine this issue, because the information is still so on point. Sam wrote that amazing article a year before Nevil admitted to even picking up a Mel Frank grow book, so please give me a break when I dismiss the BS fabrications from Nevil about somebody so accomplished.
Enjoy your complementary copy of our current issue, where I highlight some of my heroes in this industry:
The truth is that Sam was already breeding amazing varieties like Skunk #1 and working with Haze for almost a decade before Nevil even figured out that he could grow cannabis plants under a fluorescent light from a book written by one of Sam’s already close friends.
You can continue to believe Nevil’s lies, but I’m no longer going to. The paperwork on Cogo has been released, the truth has been uncovered. Nevil was wrong, Sam was not a DEA agent, and he didn’t turn Nevil in.
I am somebody who fought the federal government and self surrendered to a 5 year prison sentence because I would not rat out my friends. This subject comes very close to my heart and I despise anybody who would cooperate with the feds. If there was one shred of evidence and I mean one little shred of evidence to back up anything that Nevil has ever said about Sam and Rob, I would burn them like witches in the middle of town, but NONE of it turned out to be true.
None of the lies that Nevil put forth turned out to be true and I no longer believe Nevil.
That’s the bottom line.
I know he was still doing heroin in the 90s. I knew Mario Lap. Read my last post.
Knowing that he was still getting high on heroin and lying about it, was one of the reasons I stopped believing the other things Nevil was saying.
Also, spending over a year with Old Ed and hearing his side of the story really made me question everything Nevil and Dronkers were saying about Sam.
“…read enough paperwork in handcuffs”
I know that feeling all too well.
Let me also say that I despise people who used the marijuana laws as a weapon against other people. People like Cogo are evil, and sadly, even Nevil becomes evil in my eyes, because he was publicly doxing Sam and doing everything he could to assassinate the character of a good person.
Nevil was not snitching to the cops, but instead publicly, and he wasn’t even snitching about something truthful, he was snitching out lies. That’s really really messed up in my opinion.
If it were not for Sam selling Nevil Seeds, I don’t think any of us would be even having a conversation about Nevil. Nevil made his money and built his seed bank based on the seeds he initally purchased from Sam in 1984. Take Skunk #1, Haze, Durban, Afghan #1, Hindu Kush and Cali O out of the equation and what’s left at Nevil’s seed bank: some Northern Lights, G 13 and Big Bud? Oh yeah, those were all brought over by Americans as well, but I won’t even get into that right now.
The Holland Seed Bank would’ve been nothing were it not for the American’s genetics.
All from some surfers, bikers, ex military, counter culture hippies and the family. The real rebel growers of the past who built the foundations we stand on today. @ToddMcC you have known and met alot of people in the industry I hold in high regard some I don’t but I think the most influential person I wish I could have sat down and smoked with would have been jack. I got to see him give a speach once at a old harvest party in sebastapol, Ed was there in his old denim screaming about legalization. I still haven’t managed to replace my copy of his book I had a sighned one and somebody stole it, Jack’s not Ed’s. 
anyways the Sam drama I won’t touch on there are alot of things people don’t like about him besides his relations with nevil but to each there own and it’s stuff tons of people are doing now he was just years ahead. People with different motives and agendas will often form resentment towards each other but it’s important to remember we are all brought together by our love of the plant and we shouldn’t lose site of that. I have often been botherd by certain people’s business ties in the Canna world but I would never out right call somebody a snith unless I was holding the paperwork , I might say there hella sketch it there is a lot of red flags but not that they are a for sure rat. That used to be something that carried heavy consequences and you better be sure when you start saying that about somebody.
Now if I do get paperwork on somebody expect me to run up and down the streets waiving it around like it’s parade day.
Hi Todd it was Nevil’s anniversary on the 30th of March 2 years since his passing and i think its bad form that the attack on Nevil and the real history of his legacy seams to the target yet again.
You met Nevil once yet you posted and claimed you stayed with Nevil at his castle while Nevil owned it and that was not true so how much of this is true ?..
Nevil told me about his fight with heroin and how he got clean he also told me after he blew him self up were he ended up with burns were he needed hospitalization he refused morphine for pain as he knew were that may lead He was clean there are people that will back that.
Nevil like it or not got HAZE and other things a few weeks after Sam arrived in Amsterdam Sam needed the money Nevil bought the seed he also used the oldest haze seed and closest Haze line to the original creation of F1 haze from those that were named the Haze brothers in his work.
What you and many others don’t seam to know is the work Nevil did away from Holland and what he called his best work.That has not been released YET Nevil was not stuck in the past working the same few things every one else still are.
Nevil was always thinking how to improve Haze i don’t see any one doing that Todd even Sam said Ohaze is best used for out crossing not inbreeding.
Hi Hempy,
With all due respect sir, I am not trying to hurt anyone’s feelings by speaking frankly. I am not attacking, I am trying to understand the truth.
You can defend the feeling of a dead man, and all respect to him, but you seem to care nothing about the feeling of a very alive Skunkman Sam, who has had to endure the lies of Nevil for a long time now. I still see the lies repeated in these posts and even in your last message.
Disparaging comments like “Sam needed the money”, are just BS, Sam was a seed dealer long before he sold seeds to Nevil and I know from Wernard that the “Green Team” with Sam was making lots of money.
I never ever claimed that I stayed at the castle when Nevil was there, I only first arrived in Amsterdam in Nov 1994 and did not get an invite to stay at the castle until spring/summer of 1996 from Alan Dronkers and Nevil was long gone by then.
I did visit the castle in Nov of 1994 with Jack when Nevil was there, it was the first time I saw Nevil, but I did not stay there overnight, we all left after the very cool party where they debuted the new “Jack Herer” variety.
Nevil has said that Sam told him that breeding Haze plants together does not improve the variety.
Tell me this, how would Sam know that breeding Haze plants together did not improve the variety unless Sam bred Haze plants together and made seeds and tested those seeds?
His nl5/haze threw alot iofjunk but the keepers were historic.
I’d love more then anything to have the skunk or hashplant crosses , the nl1 x Hindu before it became Oasis would be spectacular also.
Regardless of the small details alot of people owe there genetic lines to him and a few other old-school pioneer’s