Can copper be safely used in hydroponics to keep roots out of drains?

He didn’t directly address the question about having metallic copper in contact with the solution but notes the followings:

  1. Copper can have significant toxicity.
  2. Likes to see the concentration below 0.1ppm
  3. Target a concentration of 0.07 ppm
  4. But, anywhere between 0.05 to 0.5 should be okay in general.
  5. Would be concerned with concentrations that exceed 1 ppm.

But then he also notes that he has formulated nutrient solution concentrations that exceed 0.16ppm. The uptake of copper from the media is very dependent on the PH along with the ratio of other transition metals (iron/zin,etc) that are also in solution. Since the uptake does depend on PH, one would also have to consider any PH modification/buffering that occurs at the root zone (I do not know if this occurs within a hydroponic system). The best way to analyze the effect of a particular solution is by tissue analysis.

So, he has some general guidelines but it appears that there remains room for interpretation when it comes to copper.

Your test is “bleeding edge” :sunglasses:!

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Very interesting!

Did he happen to mention what PH ranges made for more or less copper uptake? That could make a difference in whether you got worried about a higher copper concentration or not.

Edit: I found several PH/neutrient availability charts and they all more or less agree - copper uptake occurs mostly in the PH range we use, so no getting away from it.

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We were discussing hydroponics at the time so his comments on concentrations likely relate to PH 5.8 to 6.4. I did see a paper on copper uptake vs PH vs temperature. I’ll see if I can dig it up again.

I also came upon literature that notes how copper uptake (like Harley notes) is affected by other metals in solution (e.g. zinc/copper ratio). So, at first glance, I don’t think there will be a straight forward answer here from the available literature partially due to the scope of the question (soil vs zero runoff vs recirculation vs drain to waste vs etc). Also, the PH chart might be a bit misleading due to the fore-mentioned effect.

This apparent complexity is likely why the answers and experiences around town are so diverse. And is possibly why the various nutrient formulations, noted earlier, have wildly differing copper concentrations with little ill effect. Since we and others are having some difficultly answering this question, this makes your investigation particularly relevant. Probably could be it’s own topic (for those of us who don’t get out much) :smile:

In my mind, this is generating more questions than answers. I have to constrain myself. Otherwise we’ll stray from your first order experiment of whether having copper metal sitting in solution changes the copper concentration at all. Then we can swing back around on this?

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Very good points. I agree, the only option is to take things one step at a time - with the understanding that this is by no means the end all for copper use in growing.

In addition to the ratios of other elements, and temp variables, you bring up a good point about different types of hydro presenting different situations. For example, I would think drain to waste would be the least effected and have the least risk of copper over dose, if used near a drain. There is no re-circulation, so any copper dissolving in the solution will just flow out of the system. Of course, that may present a danger to where ever you are draining the waste.

But - like you said, we need to take this one step at a time. It looks like the test kit will be here Friday. At that point the copper will have been in the solution for several days. Its a relatively large chunk of copper for that small a volume of solution, so it should give some indication - I hope.

I think you’re right about it being a good idea to split this off into its own topic. I have no idea how to do that, but I will look into it.

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Ah! I just noticed you added this info to that post. Very interesting.

Some of those concentrations seem to be on the high side based on the other info you posted about toxicity.

I understand better now what you mean about this being more complex than it seems at first.

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I would presume that the folk that are formulating this stuff are being very deliberate with the concentrations

Peter’s Professional Hydroponic Special (5-11-26) Cu:Zn 1:1
ModifiedSonneveld’s solution Cu:Zn 1:5.6
Jack’s Hydroponic (5-12-26) + Calcium nitrate Cu:Zn 1:1
Jack’s Hydro-FeED(16-4-17) Cu:Zn 1:3.7
Megacrop Cu:Zn 1:2.2
Ultrasol Cu:Zn 1.75:1

I don’t know, can’t figure this out. Megacrop and Ultrasol have concentrations 7X of redline. Zinc to copper are again, all over the place.There is some ratio thing going on in there. Just don’t know what.

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Yeah, its not obvious why they are doing that or why some of them are not toxic. I have never seen any reports of copper over dose or leaf damage, so its not as simple as the basic copper level for sure.

Hopefully, I will at least be able to see if the copper level changes and by how much. That will be a start.

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Some sources suggest that copper becomes maximally available at PH 5 and then reduces as the PH increases / becomes more alkaline (up to the point where the metals hard precipitate out of solution).

Nor have I. Or, maybe, no one has noticed or the symptoms are misinterpreted as a different excess/deficiency (I mean who really thinks much about Cu). Majority of the Cu accumulation in the plant species I’ve read about occurs in the roots, and, hence damage is most likely to occur there. There were a few species that do tend to evenly distribute the Cu into both the leaves and the roots but they seem to be outliers. Whether Canna may be one of these outliers, I am not certain. One thing does seem certain is that copper does have an effect on root growth. Most papers focus on copper in solution as opposed to localized root contact, though.

The intrigue is fascinating and suggests that tissue analysis might be the way to determine suitable Cu levels. Otherwise, I have not as of yet been able to determine how the micronutrient levels in those nutrient formulations are being determined. They have wildly differing ratios which could be the result of how the test runs were performed and information gleaned from tissue analysis.

And, some more papers for reference:

This is an interesting paper. No excerpts as I’m actually going to read this first as opposed to simply skimming, The Responses of Plants to Metal Toxicity: A review focusing on Copper, Manganese and Zinc , S. M. Reichman.

Effect of Soil Contamination on Some Heavy Metals Content of Cannabis sativa”, MURAD ALI KHAN, et. al.

The most common sources for copper distribution on soils are pesticides, fertilizers, industries and sewage sluges. Critical concentration for copper in plants is between 20 and 100 mg/kg.
…Thus the copper concentration in plant parts was in the order roots > leaves > stem.

“Copper localization in Cannabis sativa L. grown in a copper-rich solution”, Laura Arru, et. al.

In this study we examined the ability of Cannabis sativa to tolerate Cu salts.
Plants grown on 1 mM CuSO did not show any phytotoxicity symptoms, while dramatic toxicity was observed when plants were grown on a 2.5 mM CuSO4 solution. On the basis of these observations, a 1 mM threshold was chosen for subsequent experiments.

Organic acids also seem to play a role in heavy metal tolerance, transport or storage in plants; levels of citric, malic, malonic and oxalic acids have been correlated with elevated concentrations for example of Ni or Zn in the biomass (Lee et al., 1978; Tolr ́a et al.,1996) of hyperaccumulators.

…hemp demonstrated to possess the ability to transfer Cu from the root to the shoot…

Effect of Copper Toxicity on Root Morphology, Ultrastructure, and Copper Accumulation in Moso Bamboo”, Junren Chena, et. al.

The composition of the nutrient solution was as follows (in mmol /L): NH4NO3 (714), NaH2PO4 2H2O (161), K2SO4(256), CaCl2 (499), MgSO4 7H2O (823), Na2EDTA (13), FeSO4 7H2O (13), MnSO4 H2O (5), (NH4)6Mo7O24 4H2O (0.04), H3BO3 (9), ZnSO4 7H2O (0.08), CuSO4 5H2O (0.08), citric acid (monohydrate) (35), and concentrated H2SO4 (0.025 L).
Excess copper was applied as CuSO4 5H2O at (1) 0 mM (control), (2) 10 mM, (3) 25 mM, (4) 50 mM, (5) 100 mM, (6) 200 mM, (7) 400 mM. The pH value of the nutrient solution was adjusted to 5.8 with 0:1 M NaOH or 0:1 M HCl. The nutrient solution was continuously aerated and renewed after every 5 d.

Copper, as an essential microelement, plays an important role in growth and development of plants, but at the same time plants are very sensitive to excess Cu. Exposure of plants to slightly elevated Cu levels provokes symptoms of stress-induced morphogenic responses (SIMR) such as inhibition of cell elongation, local stimulation of cell division, and alterations in the cell differentiation status (Feigl et al., 2013).

Copper phytotoxicity in native and agronomical plant species”, Dane T.Lamb, et. al.

Critical exogenous Cu concentrations (50 percent reduction in roots) for E. camaldulensis, D. sericeum, A. richardsonii, B. macra (dilute), L. sativa, B. macra (concentrated), R. sativa and A. decurrens were, respectively, (μg/L) 16, 35, 83, 88, 97, 105, 128 and 186. > (e.g. ppb)

On B. macra, specifically:

Copper tolerance in B. macra was observed to be higher in the more concentrated nutrient solution despite the estimated Cu2+ concentration being very similar in treatment solutions.

Additional short-term rhizo-accumulation studies showed that neither Ca2+ not K+ was responsible for reduced uptake at the roots. However, the estimated maximum shoot Cu was reduced from 41 to 24 mg/kg in the more concentrated solution.

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Any chance it could end up in your product?

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Yes, possible. Bioaccumulates, like other metals, in the leaves and stems for certain. But, mostly roots. Flowers, unknown to me.

Cu is, of course, an essential micro-nutrient and does contribute to positive aspects of growth and quality. But, Larry is trying to determine what levels in solution are safe to plant for growth. A good question is also along the line of what you are suggesting, safe for consumption? I guess that’ll be another thing to figure out :grimacing:

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I do not see there being an issue with using copper in a drain to stop roots as long as it is not recirculating.

I once used copper pipework in a hydro system and within a week all my plants were bright yellow and well on their way to being dead. Turns out excessive copper blocks iron absorption.

I brought them back just by doing a tank refresh and replacing all the copper piping with plastic pushfit piping.

I would imagine the level of copper exposure from a drain would not be that much. If you recirculate the same slightly acidic water over a piece of copper though it will continuously leach copper into the water meaning an ever increasing amount of copper in the water.

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Cooper is used for our drinking water and is a must in making the finest moonshine there is… so unless the chemicals in nutrients have and adverse effect on the copper I think it would work…

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:smile: Prefer stainless distill myself. :smile:

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The test kit got here a day early!

I just finished testing the samples I drew last week and we have a very obvious result.

The sample without the copper wire in it didnt show any color at all that I could see. So that means the copper concentration is below .05 ppm. Which is less than it should be based on the Mega Crop calculator. That solution was somewhere in the range of 4gm/gal and the Mega Crop chart shows that it should have around .52 PPM of copper. Not sure whats going on with that.

The sample that did have the copper wire in it showed a concentration somewhere above 1.0 PPM - which is the highest the test kit can read. The color looks darker than the chart shows, but that may be partly due to the color of the nutes in the solution. Still, its obviously got a lot more copper than the other sample without the wire in it.

Here is a better shot of the chart.

Now, thats a very large amount of copper in a very small sample of solution, but its still shows that the copper does go into solution when just sitting still with no outside electrolysis, or galvanic corrosion, and only occasional stirring. That was aprox 2 oz of solution with about 1.5" of copper wire submerged. My rez holds about 1800 oz or 900 times as much nute solution.

I need about a 3" long piece of wire in the NFT tote to protect the drain, so in theory, if I had a 3" piece of copper wire in there for a week, I should see about 450 times less copper in the solution - which should not be enough to worry about - maybe.

Of course, my rez water circulates rather than siting still. I suspect that will increase the rate of copper transfer. I also have a piece of aluminum in my rez. The electrical path between them is not direct, bit there is one, so I may get some galvanc corrosion from having dissimilar metals in the same solution.

My replacement meter wont be here until Monday. I think I will top my rez off first, then take a water sample to set aside and test. Then I will put a 3" piece of wire in the NFT tote tonight at lights ON, and leave it in there until at least Monday. Im willing to risk it that long. I can also test the solution several times between now and then and stop things if it looks bad. Im planning a rez change after I get the meter back anyway.

Once I get the meter back, I will test the rez and all the samples for PH and EC so we have that data.

By Monday we might be able to tell if the roots are actually being stopped or slowed down by the copper wire. I have been needing to remove small pieces of roots from that drain almost every day, so we should be able to tell if its working or not.

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Copper is fine for water because drinking water has a PH suitable for it. Add nutrients to it and all types of issues will arise when the copper off gases and causes a toxic situation.

Been there done that, not good.

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Interesting, I wonder if we should query the @GreenleafNutrients folks on this. Chelates binding the copper such that the chemical test doesn’t work? Could the values in the calculator be off?

While it’s good (I think) to hear it’s not as concentrated as was presumed, I’m certainly at a loss in understanding the PPM charts.

This is driving me nuts, I wonder if a lab analysis would be in order. You have an ec of 1.1 or so, correct? Need to find an inexpensive lab nearby that’ll test relatively concentrated water solutions. I’ve been putting this off for far too long and may have an excuse now.

Very good test, thank you for trying this. Very valuable, provable result use-able by many.

Certainly test this, I think you’ll get around 20-30 tests in that kit. Would be interesting to see any progression. Of course, the plants may suck some of that out of solution, too. You already know this but if you run this for any extended period, keep an eye on their health just in case.

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probably the test is for free copper in the solution

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Thanks. Ugh, ok. Chemistry major not I am.

Would it be correct to assume free copper is available for uptake by the plant? How do we determine the available copper to the plant from a nutrient solution?

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What form is the copper in mega crop? Can you offer any other information about copper in solution (free or not) in general?

Good questions! Looking forward to any info @GreenleafNutrients can provide.

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Ok, I have topped off the rez and placed the copper wire in the NFT tote. PH is somewhere around 6 ±. Cant pin it down any better with drops.

Here is the drain in the NFT tote as of tonight. I picked out all those roots yesterday morning.

And here it is after picking out the roots that were close to or in the drain holes and then adding the copper wire. I left some of the roots just touching the wire to see what they would do.

<img src="/uploads/default/original/3X/6/3/63663ccb96a84b2bd9f246371d6d3a90aee6ec62.jpg" width="375"height=“500”>

I tested the rez water and once again it reads zero copper.

I’ll do another test in about 8 hours. If it is showing copper, I will test fairly often, if not, I will wait a day to test again.

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