Feminized Seeds , Whats Your thoughts!?

Breeder's Lab
#61

Agreed on the trademark, or in actuality what will become plant patents. Plant patents are good for 20 years (in the US) and that is what is used to protect strains of new roses, orchids, and other prize plants from being cloned and sold w/o royalties being paid to the owner of the patents. I am sure that Dave Watson is salivating, sitting on his metric ton of Cannabis seeds, and will patent all his strains. Though you can still clone them if you get a live cutting, and sporadic S1 seeds will be created from herms. They have inadvertently generated a future of herms by creating and selling so many fem seeds.

I do not believe that the demise of land race strains is centuries out though. It is a few decades out at most at the current rate. For multiple reasons. Juan Valdez is not the guy that is growing all that much weed any more. It has become much more large scale than that, and the growers are being sold modern seeds strains on all levels. Also the black market is greatly decreasing as North/Central American and European countries legalize weed. Legal weed in the western states has already resulted in many growers in places like Sinaloa, Mexico to stop growing Cannabis. Though they had few, if any land races of Cannabis there to preserve. In places like Sinaloa, they had/have mostly auto, feminized and modern Amsterdam strains. Morocco is about half Pakistan strains now, and half original Morocco strains. The Morocco strain grows are getting smaller and smaller every year.

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#62

Thats what is so importand the conexiĆ³n between local growers STILL growin landraces, n the breeders than can preserve n make heirloomsā€¦

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#63

No so much feminized in great Mexican or Moroccan cultives: so expensivesā€¦As ya said toĆ³, the uses hibrids between their landraces n comercial easy indicasā€¦
Btw, as less for us, Moroccan cannabis allways has been seen like the worstā€¦Cant understand it world famouseā€¦

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#64

Typical manifest destiny response. Rape the world endlessly for resources and let god sort it all out? Good luck with that. But you are wrong in your assumption here. Landrace strains are not wild. Land races are stains that have been cultivated by humans for specific traits for several centuries, or in some cases, millennia. They will not simply revert to some corner of the world and continue as they have, save for places like Uzbekistan and Siberia where they evolved and other strains of Cannabis are not grown in proximity.

I will site as one example, Mexico. There were no species of Cannabis growing in the western hemisphere before the 15th century. Hemp was brought to New Spain (now Mexico) in the 1500s. The indigenous people of Mexico had long since collected and used for medical and religious purposes. They prized psychotropic and hallucinogenic plants above all others. They quickly realized that hemp tops had a mild kick to them. So they began cultivating hemp as a drug rather than for fiber. But the Catholic church frowned on this then, as they still do now, and it became a hidden aspect of native life there and later when it became Mexico. That is the reason that Mexican strains are all sativas: they were originated from hemp fiber strains. At any rate, after centuries of isolated cultivation, landrace stains emerged in many states in Mexico with many different traits. Oaxacan mint, Zacatecas purple, Highland gold. The along came Nixon and paraquat, and a vast amount of those strains were wiped out. So they moved inland with their remaining seeds and grew weed on the inner plateau of Mexico, but over time these grows were replaced with more modern strain seeds, because inidca crosses were (and still are) all the rage. And later still, grows in Mexico moved north under the cartels to states like Sinaloa, where there were only a few land race strains that were wiped or bred out by planting indica cross strains.

Similar things are happening in Thailand now, where early Thai strains are virtually extinct. And in Malawi, where Malawi gold is virtually extinct. In Swaziland, Swazi gold is almost extinct. Add to that the fact that hemp is a wind pollinated plant, and pollen can carry and drift for tens of miles. So wherever indica crosses are grown (which is virtually everywhere now), it will pollinate and displace land race and wild strains. That is exactly what has happened to corn, BTW. There is virtually no corn seed left on this earth that does not have some amount of GMO genetics in it. Male corn pollen has drifted and bread to the extent that basically every other corn plant grown is genetically tainted by GMO. You do not put this genie back in the bottle. What Cannabis genetics were in the past, will not be around in the future as you predict.

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#65

Yare right , @BigSur : Even more, these first Spanish strains were toĆ³ crosses between Indian n South East&Western Ɓfricaā€¦
Not only amerindians smoked: whites n blacks toĆ³. The Church used advertised to Emperador that poor people was smokin the cannabis growed to the ships of Spanish Armadaā€¦ Btw, think than durin Spanish Islamics times, cannabis was selected to medical n ludic/reacreational useā€¦When AmĆ©rica is ā€œdiscoveredā€, Spanish Emirate of Granada still groweed for medical/psicoactivo use, cos they havent got shipsā€¦

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#66

Perhaps with (not in spite of) trademarking coming to a legal market (ie Canadian upcoming dream) it will be easier for these genetics to be preserved? We are a long way from the Nixon years, the general populace is more apprehensive to blindly trust the big players in the agri market nowadays. So possibly bringing cannabis out of the unregulated greed driven illegal marketplace, may help to preserve these precious genetics. Like I can (and do) acquire and grow only heirloom and non gmo vegetables for my dinner table, as these varieties are popular on the organic growing seed exchange society and commercially(thanks to the internet). Iā€™m just trying to get across that the multi=hybridizing of our food crops was justified by the green revolution (wheat was the target there) and spawned the monsanto model of commercial food production. The tide is turning back from this thinking and farming is trying to return? back to an intensive sustainable organic model (which rarely existed for any length of time in the recent past anyway). There is hope as we are now seeing small time boutique farmers getting into organic heirloom production and commercialization. Also organic sections in grocery chains are growing. Hopefully a newly legalized system will develop with modern awareness, and foster preservation of these ancient cultivars. There will be demand if potential consumers arenā€™t considered criminal anymore.

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#67

I passed a 100 acre commercial hemp field the other day (well a frozen one lol) and figured it would really suck to live anywhere near that pollen factory.

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#68

You know your HX, well done.

#69

Sorry, Iā€™m not on muchā€¦ RL is a bitch sometimes.

My storage begins at harvest. When the male flowers are opening and beginning to drop, I take some clean scissors and a clean plate out and clip all the male flowers onto the plate. Once Iā€™m done, I transfer the plate of pollen to a dark and very dry place to dehydrate as much moisture out as I can.
Once the flowers are dry, they are very crumbly - I donā€™t separate them or crush them too much, I bag 'em with the pollen and a few silica packs, vacuum seal and then I just store them in a cool, dark place.
The package is maybe 3"x3"x.5" all told it doesnā€™t look like much.
When I want to pollinate I open a bag and use a fine tipped paintbrush on a flower or two, then reseal.
The longest successful fertilization Iā€™ve had has been about 7 years, give or take a couple months - and Iā€™d reopened that bag maybe 3 times over those years.
I was turned onto this when I read a scientific article online about them finding viable pollen in an ancient tomb somewhere.

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#70

You my friend are very knowledgeable about landraces obviously! I wish I had half the knowledge about landraces that you apparently have . I hope I did not upset you with my comments before, I think what I said came off differently than how I meant it to. Hopefully I have not burnt any possible future bridges with you, as I would love to be able to pick your brain in the future with questions I may have about various landraces.
As I have posted here, I hope to work with various landraces in the near future to try and create my own landrace based hybrids, And people here like you are sure to be invaluable resources of knowledge. Once again I apologize if my past statements rubbed you the wrong way. I guess I have just been a little more emotional about things as My mother just passed away recently.
Well I hope you wonā€™t mind if I pop in on you every once in awhile with some questions that you might be able to help me with.

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#71

A femā€™d auto-flower seed IS the Monsanto model. Canā€™t be bred, canā€™t be cloned. One (patented and purchased) seed per plant, per harvest. Cha-ching. And its not a model thatā€™s tide is ā€œturning backā€. More like inundating the planet. It just hasnā€™t. quite. made it. to cannabis. yetā€¦

The landrace preservation debate has been going on for a long time. Nevil has some interesting thoughts in this Mr. Nice thread that are worth reading - really pearls of wisdom scattered all through it: http://bit.ly/2nF7cBy

His stance is blunt, and somewhat ironic given his role in creating many of the critical breeding strains from whence todayā€™s brand-name buds come:

ā€œThe job is not to save the gene pool, but to satisfy the guy who gave you the money.ā€

Spoken like a businessman, but a bit disingenuous from a guy who developed most of his hybrids from landrace strains, and has made sure his original breeding parents were carefully preserved for over 30 years now. He goes on in the thread to lay out many of his breeding techs and insights - each of which illuminate his true philosophy of breeding, which is the breeder must, first and foremost, have a GOAL in mind, a goal to improve the resulting cross in a specific way, but always keeping core values such as consistency of phenotype, disease resistance, potency, and yield in the mix. And dioeciousness, i.e. heterosexuality.

Anyway, I think the discussion has veered into A vs B, when what we need is A + B. I think femā€™d and autoflower seeds are inherently flawed due to the nature of their creation (breeding with hermaphrodites and low-potency Ruderalis). But as a convenience to homegrower consumers, I donā€™t see much harm, as long as these hobby growers stick to their hobbies and donā€™t try to become commercial breeders.

And I agree preserving landrace sativas requires skills and resources most homegrowers lack, so that is best left to those who can do it right. (The same is not true for landrace indicas and short-season African sativas, or heirloom strains, where homegrowers can indeed contribute, and do.)

Unfortunately today, the skillful, knowledgeable commercial mj breeders are being pushed aside in the marketplace by seed hustlers selling brand names rather than worked strains, with not a momentā€™s thought to heritage, stability, recessive traits, etc. Ultimately this will lead directly to one mega-strain, call it OG Commercial Kush, representing every ā€œfireā€ hybrid to hit the market in the past 15 years, all blended together in one potently boring indica-dom big bud plant that canā€™t support itself, is vulnerable to mold, and herms in 30% of the plants. From my recent sampling of dispensary strains in California, Iā€™d say we are pretty much there already.

At that point, 25 of Big Surā€™s Punta Roja or Kerala seeds will be worth all beans in Watsonā€™s vault, as breeders rush back to the drawing board to rebuild the domestic cannabis gene pool.

-b420

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#72

Very well said. If we considered femmed seeds and autoflowers as an end user product, their use would be much more acceptable. Ethics is in short supply it seems, everywhere. A bottle of silver nitrate and a website does NOT a breeder, makeā€¦

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#73

Just read this today, canā€™t link to the study (membership crap). Thought a couple of ya here might find this relevant to the preservation side of the discussionhttps://www.israel21c.org/science-brings-good-old-flavor-back-to-tomatoes/

#74

As Cannasaurusrex states, very well said. The desire of the Globalist Criminals for total control of the planet is fiercely evil. I hope we win, and not them.

#75

No bridges burnt here, and no apologies required. I am thick skinned these days on the internet and I am hard headed when it comes to what we are doing to this planet and genetics. I only know about land race genetics and weed strains because back in the 1970s, that is all you could get. I learned in the late 1970s that I could save seeds frozen virtually indefinitely, and so I started saving my seeds from bag weed. Now all those strains are on the endangered strain list. No need for me to hunt them down the world over, like the Strain Hunters do. The world came to me in the 1970s on the black market, from places like Thailand, Cambodia, India, Mexico, Colombia, Lebanon, Morocco, Afghanistan, Jamaica, Nepal, and Pakistan. All I have to do is go to my freezer and do some strain hunting. Right now I am germinating 2 Lebanese land race strains and one Durban Poison strain from ZA.

As for Mexico, I have been there many many times. I also speak Spanish, and I went to university in San Diego at SDSU. I have traveled all over western and southern Mexico. Many Mexicans here complain that I have seen far more of their native country than they have. It was really really cheap to travel in Mexico in the 1970s. $13 was the cost for a train ride all the way from Mexicali to Guadalajara. I stayed in beach houses for 50 cents a night. I also traded my culinary skills in several places to stay for free there. Of course I also picked up some exotic diseases there, and I was rather sick several times. Sad to hear that Franco died of malaria recently. That is what you are exposed to stomping around in 3rd world places though. Hepatitis, Malaria, Yellow Fever, Dengue, and other exotic diseases are rather rampant in many places in the world, especially where weed is typically grown for export on the black market.

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#76

Unfortunately I see the onset of BIG CANNABIS looming. Production of weed will (actually already is) in massive indoor grow facilities cranking out the same old, same old. As noted in a later post here that I will also reply to about Monsanto, etc., black market greed will be replaced with Wall Street and govā€™t tax greed. My belief is (based on what I have seen with big seed hoarders like Dave Watson and some of the larger seed companies) is that genetics will become patented and limited to select varieties that the big growers generate and sell, based availability and on market demand. Meaning that the strains are all merging into a mono strain of northern-purple-OG-Haze-skunk-widow cross that will basically become indistinguishable in future. Fem/herm is just getting cemented into the genetics, along with auto and short flowering times. As hemp and marijuana is grown in more areas outdoors in larger and larger stands, the pollen drift will be everywhere. We are headed to a monocultural mutt of a MJ strain. Also the costs will be so low that few will even grow weed on their own any more. I mean, who grows their own tobacco today? And what black market tobacco is there now, other than knock off branding and labeling of cheaper tobacco in trade name packs in places like China? Weed here in Oregon is already getting super cheap. Like $13 an eighth on special sale cheap. For top strains. $100 an oz. like it was back in the early 1980s.

While there will likely be a boutique trade in land race and heirloom Cannabis seeds, the main market will be different. I see the demise of the black market in MJ, as well as the demise of the current seed company monopoly on genetics. The likes of Monsanto, BIG PHARMA and BIG TOBACCO will buy them all up and patent them. Just like they will buy up all the grow licenses here in the west. Why go to a weed dedicated sales store, when you can buy a pack of Durban #12 joints at Safeway? That time will come as deregulation rolls along. The MJ fad will fade. The majority of weed smokers are in the states that have already legalized rec weed. And in those states, only about a max of 15% actually smoke herb. The broader market is limited, and unless it expands, the overall expansion of rec marijuana will be limited. However, I see the expansion of medical marijuana as an untapped gold mine. That is, if BIG PHARMA does not buy it all up and drive it into the ground.

As for small weed farmers in Oregon and California, I looked seriously into getting a grow license here on my property, as I have the land, the water rights, the right zoning, and I am in a county that allows for rec weed growing. But the hurdles and hoops are many, and it is a very expensive and time consuming process. It favors going big, not small. Also big companies are already coming into Oregon and buying up a lot of the grow licenses that have been issued. Something like 50% of them so far? California has a one acre canopy grow limit only for the first 5 years, then that is going to be lifted. Then BIG MONEY will move in and small growers will be forced out. Just the way it is. We can still grow our own weed here though, so backyard growing will continue on a smaller scale. But even now, with weed at $13 an eighth? Its almost not worth growing any more. I am only growing my Lebanese and Durban land races this year because Durban Poison is hard to come by here at dispensaries, and Lebanese is not available anywhere.

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#77

Before I was booted off of ICmag, I had several arguments with Dave Watson. Never mind the fact that the central California that he claims to have lived in was nothing like the one I lived in. I was there in the exact same places from '66 to '86, and whet he claims was there then simply was not. At any rate, I believe that he was flipped by the DEA in a bust and sent to Amsterdam as their tool. I cannot speak about his exploits in Holland, but I know for a fact that the did not breed many (if any) of the strains that he claims to have in California. Nor were there 2 brothers by the name of Haze in Corralitos, nor were they even brothers! Everything I read that he has said and posted, or that is posted about him on the web leads me to the conclusion that he is a pathological liar. Which likely was the very reason that the DEA selected him to be their point man in Amsterdam. He could simply lie his way onto the grow scene there, and they would have a way to shut the entire Holland grow operation down, which they basically did. Just like in Santa Cruz, everyone around him later in Holland wound up in jail, and he skated. But I digressā€¦

Back to the argument with Dave about Monsantoā€™s killer gene, and genetics. He claims that there is no such thing as GMO (trans genetic tampering) in Cannabis. He has stated over and over again that it does not exist. Which coming from a liar like him, leads me to believe that there actually is. Also the genetic diversity and potential for pharmaceuticals from Cannabis has such high potential I cannot see how the likes global giants like Bayer, ADM and Monsanto would not get involved, or be involved in this type of research already. Bayer already bought up what was Watsonā€™s earlier collection of genetics from his company in Holland and the UK (through Hortapharm and GW Pharma. if I recall right). Also if you add that to what is going on in Uruguay right nowā€¦ if you are not aware, Uruguay has legalized weed to anyone over 18 years of age. Uruguayā€™s President Mujica has also made it clear publicly that he wants a unique genetic code for cannabis in his country in order to ā€œkeep the black market under control.ā€ So enter the likes of Monsanto that has been known to have been tinkering with THC compounds and variants, and whallah! An instant marriage between Bayer, Monsanto, and Uruguay, where weed can be legally grown and thus tampered with genetically, and where they specifically want a genetically modified strain developed.

Yes, this is where we are headed, sadly. As well as your coined name of OG Commercial Kush (which is already here, IMO). OGā€¦ CK. Ogick? Ogick weed. An Auto- and fast-flowering short stature fully feminized strain composed of Haze, Widow, Kush, Northern Lights, Skunk, Blueberry, Pakistani, Purple, Goo, and all the other strains that people crave. 30% THC, 0% CBD, 0% of any of the other cannabinols, and tastes just likeā€¦ chicken! Yum!

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#78

After what I heard today from our esteemed government, I have to agree. Although Iā€™m for an open market (for better or worse) and a seriously lowered price in that respect, Canada will be the proving ground for big biz to do to cannabis, what it has to food only the government and law enforcement will clear the way for Monsanto et al first. The fucking heat is gonna come down hard on the dispensary businesses, and everyone currently supplying them, the popo has also started to raid businesses selling seeds. The gov. is going to send shivers of paranoia to all the little players this year. Well, had to let the girls down and tell them they were still rebels. Waiting so long for hope, pandoras box smells like old salty pork.

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#79

Well, from what I have seen of legal weed here in Oregon, the actual results of legalization are not exactly what we were hoping for. Never mind the federal limits like having to do all business in cash and the potential for federal raids. Odd things have popped up as a result. For one, they have clamped down on genetics, and no Cannabis can be legally imported into state. And after the end of this year, EVERYTHING has to be tagged, and Oregon sourced, from start to finish. So nothing new can enter the market. If the feds do not ease up on weed, and hence interstate transport of weed, the genetics will be choked off in Oregon on what people had at the end of this year. Legally I cannot sell any of my seeds. I can legally ā€˜give them awayā€™ though. Not that I would want toā€¦ why, to let someone else make a fat profit? Phuuuut!

Also there has been a buy-up of grow licenses by consortium that smells of consolidation and an eventual monopoly by big money players in state. Store fronts will likely follow suit. Also the medical laws here are likely to go away and the OHA will pass all control to the OLCC and all an OMMP medical card will get you is tax-free weed at the point of sale. Medical dispensaries will become obsolete. Which means in dry counties, many people will not have any local place to buy weed, medical or otherwise. California has basically thrown medical MJ under the bus already and is rolling everything there under a new state regulated commercial weed agency.

On the flip side, in Washington state some things have gotten better. Taxes on weed have been lowered, and while you still cannot grow your own rec weed there, you can get an Rx from your doctor and grow 4 plants w/o a grow license or registering with the state to get a WMMP card.

Also in Washington, Arizona, Colorado and Massachusetts in particular, commercial growing is moving into a new realm and massive scale. One million square foot grow facilities are being built. One million square feet! That is 23 acres indoors! cough These are weed production factories on a scale unseen before. I do not see how any small growers or store fronts will survive.

You want a pack of Winston or Marlboro Cannabis cigarettes with your order? That will be $10 please.

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#80

Salud, @BigSur:

Disculpa te interpele en espaƱol, pero es que en ingles me expreso como un niƱo de 4 aƱosā€¦

Las patentes genĆ©ticas a plantas no tienen validez fuera de EUA(USA) (n maybe CanadĆ”). EU(European UniĆ³n), Brasil, Sudafrica e India juntas han denunciado esto y ganado todos los juicios: recuerda lo que paso cuando EUA (Monsanto?) intento patentar una variedad de trigo indio.; maybe @avmaxxx knows the history ā€¦( porque esa es otra: estas patentando genes que no son de EUAā€¦es como decirle a un alemĆ”n que EUA va a patentar el Pastor AlemĆ”nā€¦o a un espaƱol que EUA va a patentar los ā€œMustang Horsesā€ā€¦)

TambiĆ©n creo que hay ā€œuna trampaā€ en EUA/CanadĆ” con los proyectos de legalizar el cannabis SIN firmar la ConvenciĆ³n Internacional de Viena-Austria para el libre trafico y comercializaciĆ³n de semillas de cannabisā€¦Aparte la polĆ©mica Estatal vs Federalā€¦

Y otro fleco suelto : como va ha reaccionar la Mafia Mexicana (mĆ”s poderosa que muchos paĆ­ses EU) cuando la legalizaciĆ³n vaya reduciendo sus ingresos?

PD: Muy interesante todo lo que planteas: lastima que mi ingles no me permita entenderte mejorā€¦
Por cierto, habĆ­a grandes cultivadores Outdoor en OregĆ³n de sativas: de echo y como le mostrĆ© a @SLOGrown, las mejores fotos de landraces mexicanas Outdoor de EUA las he visto allĆ­, y no en California u otros estados del surā€¦

Salud y suerte para tod@s!

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