If I can, I’ll be happy to help! What might help you is this thread. A great post in my opinion. props to @lefthandseeds and all involved! There are also some PDFs on cannabis nutrition studies that are worth reading! i think this will answer a few questions
have a great day my friend! 
So true, lefthandseeds is the right guy that can give you the leads i’m unable technically to give. When i’m spying growlogs, i’m just mapping plants and read what they say to judge the epigenetic factors. My positive opinion on the PAR of pure white LED (instead mixed) is totally build like this to give an example.
It’s not under your control buddy. It’s the inherent equation of these nutes and why i was reluctant to talk about it ^^
K patches toxicity is not a big deal to diagnose early, your more greasy leaves at their peak of metabolism/photosynthesis get a kind of camo repartition in term of chlorophyll. And the brix meter start to give fancy and unstable results. When it’s advanced and that it colonize the whole vegetal mass, the green of the plant start to get a blue/violine hue on top of a dark military green.
Let me try to find the photo, i remember a plant that i fucked this way last summer.
They don’t look to publish their MSDS on the official website so, control my guess with the help of lefthands. It’s very not my comfort zone. But i’m not throwing this randomly, i actually smoked the weeds i’m talking about and the unbalance at the stage i was talking about made all the difference. As fuck.
It was the part A. Lower by a 25% the A and keep the same the B when the bud are formed, just before the expansion. And finish like this.
No, just in following the schedule recommended only. Lowering the A actually dodge the problem. Simply.
I mean the spinach aftertaste and the problematic curing to be clear ^^
It’s a good strategy, but not a generic one. For PK boosters use only top grade ones, or don’t use it at all.
For the reason we talked about previously on the inherent problematic of the production of this kind of product.
FDS- Aptus AIO LIQUID-FR-BE V1.1.pdf (345.0 KB)
Go directly on page 3. (sorry)
This is the MSDS of the one part i’m using if it can help to relativize. Most of the time i’m between 25% and 50% of the max dosage and you can see on my growlog that they are not hungry at all. Actually the Big Bud are a bit greasy and they don’t eat at all any base since now two weeks. Just the PK booster at 50% dose.
NPK ratios are like watts with lights, it don’t mean necessary that the PAR is good.
Good shit, i used it on large scales. And actually you was able to suggest a solution i wasn’t thinking about lol
Damn you will really hate me now ^^ I’m very more positive on the Jacks than on MC on weed grade. Blunts in hand. Now it’s very not the kind of nutes that fit my needs, just friend’s weed that know their shit.
Sincerely, shoot lefthands. He’s not only smart and fascinated to build nutes from scratch, he’s able to totally understand the concern and can give you more than leads if you want push on this direction. And it look like this is the case ^^
Maybe it’s quite demanding if i understand well the philosophy behind. Perpetual in hydro is quite a quest.
Out of my sight, for me hydro is ON/OFF style. Overcharging in veg, then unleash the hell in flo in short cycles.
I’m maybe more stressed by your flo that you are ^^ Sorry to communicate this if any lol
This answered a lot of questions. Thank you very much for the clarity, that landed right where you aimed it. Can’t reply with more detail at the moment but that crystalized a TON on this end.
Again, thank you for elaborating on the K toxicity initially appearing as interveinal chlorosis. Also, tight internodes and micronutrient deficiencies. I wonder if that interveinal yellowing (pictured) is actually the first hints of Mg deficiency caused by excess K.
For whatever reason, it was hard for me to see this without it being pointed out so plainly. I guess my mind was not in the correct mode. Anyway. I have an additional product to consider: Monoammonium phosphate MAP. 12-61-0. I used this once last season to balance the high K in my vegetable beds and cannabis fabric pots. In soil, we prevent K toxicity by balancing N and P to the K. And it gets spicy, so to speak, “hot” in terms of nutrition. Which is fine once the plants adapt, our nuclear furnace of a photosynthetic stimulator perfectly matches to hot soil. I’m 1700m in altitude in a desert, so the light is fierce in all regards summertime. Ridiculous. Anyway, that mates well with RICH soil. So I’m accustomed to having high levels of K that are unavoidable, but not in a hydro setting. Last night I was considering the potential to balance the high K with a bit of supplemental P through MAP and actually reduce the amount of Part B (calcium nitrate) rather than the opposite.
Thank you for linking your All-in-one. Do you Europeans not require N-P-K ratios to be put on all your fertilizers like is required here? It looks to be about 3-3-3 just based on the chemical composition in the MSDS. It looks very much like this product All-in-One Liquid - Aptus Holland
By the way, as I read the Aptus manual I see reinforcement of my theory that the between-the-veins yellowing is actually excess K manifesting as a Mg deficiency. More reading ahead throughout this weekend. Thanks for the link @m0sirys I’ll be trolling through that thread as well as the one @LD50 made here. I’ve already browsed both those threads but before I had the hydro experience to really digest the information as thoroughly.
I have NO sentiment over nutrients or my decisions. It’s unlikely anyone here could offend me with anything other than direct assaults to my character. Nutrients? Not a chance. I’m here to learn and share my stumbling, over-thought, rambling journey with anyone who wants to follow along.
Well…maybe not NO sentiment. I felt sad when I thought I had possibly murdered, and definately tortured my mother plants.
I’m not sure. I want good flower, of course. But when this started, it was to just pick the best mother plant to run outside this summer. I have pounds of weed from last summer, more than enough to give away ounces to friends whenever they need smoke, and more than enough for me to smoke. I’m a few-hits-a-day type with a very busy career and family life, I don’t need much. So the quality of flower from the tent was second concern with the first priority running as many plants as possible for better selection power.
But, faced with evidence of a poor choice in nutrients, there is no reason to not do better.
Nutrient Comparisons
Before I read more into the threads linked above, I wanted to independently get a feel for what the field looks like in terms of reputable brands and MegaCrop. Compare the fundamental differences in N-P-K and look for a trend. I’d like to make a new decision, if it happens to wind up MegaCrop I’ll stay with that but otherwise I’ll just buy something else.
It seems the MOST highly reputed hydro brands and lines are the following:
Canna Aqua Vega/Flores
Athena Pro Grow/Bloom
Floraflex Vegetative/Bloom
I made a table of NPK elemental concentrations based on flowering ratios and tuned them to make the K concentration about equivilent, so that I can see what the ratios of N and P are relative to K.
If I exactly normalize to K the numbers look like this:
| Product | N | P | K |
|---|---|---|---|
| MegaCrop 2-Part | 237 | 57 | 260 |
| Canna Aqua Flores | 126 | 55 | 260 |
| Athena Pro Bloom | 108 | 68 | 260 |
| Floraflex Bloom | 110 | 96 | 260 |
All the products EXCEPT MegaCrop have about half the N I’m currently running. It’s far and away an outlier there. Athena and Canna are very close to each other on P, as well as close to MegaCrop. Floraflex is running high P.
Interesting. I’ve checked stock at the hydro shop I go to and I could retrieve either Athena or Canna lines Monday. So it’s totally reasonable to change. I will learn more before I do that, but those numbers are interesting to share.
Today In The Tent
The mother plants continue to improve in health.
~35cm canopy height, overall reasonable health.
The flower side is growing. The established plants have a bit of burn and definately high on Nitrogen, signs of excess with leaf clawing. Can’t say I’m surprised after running those numbers above.
Hopefully receiving some Romulan snips in the next few days, so preparing to root some more cuts. The clone dome is cleaned out, doping juice prepared. Ready. 
We don’t use the word chlorosis for the same thing i guess, because i shown/edited previously the strict reverse of a chlorosis and it was the point, the remanence of an excess … let me check quickly.
Maybe you’re lured by the variegations around ? (outside the perimeters i drawn)
No backward at all on this with canna, but people far more skilled than me in chemistry and phyto use it. Not unknown from my horizon.
God, i’ve to send you some seeds at one point for a couple of repros ^^
Out of my sight buddy, sorry to can’t comment this with skills.
Differents rules, so it’s even very hard to smuggle beef jerky, kid’s treats and BBQ sauce that are banned in EU ^^ Like in the other sense some cheese and “delicatessen” stuff. We always find a way, like seeds and clones lol
xx-yy-zz notation is used by some brands on the packaging/marketing, but to get the authorization to sell you have to strictly detail it like you read it on the MSDS shared. Some brands like Aptus and H&G just replicate it on their packaging instead to simplify it for clarity. Still a NPK notation, but just more literal.
It’s exactly this product yes, and i don’t advice it. It’s very particular to use, and EC pens lose their shit with it. They will read a 1.5EC by example while you’re at the double on the equivalence with a ballast-salt-based nutes line. And the funk become exponentially more complicated with each additional product you add in the soup, with a very strict sense of mixing in the sequence etc … for bottled freaks only ^^
That’s very cool.
To best picture it, i just discover yesterday totally by luck another face of one moon i ignored until today. This guy ^^
Luca’s formula management (GHE). First time i see a weed so pushed with this strategy that i’m curious to smoke, i ignored it since a while because the shit show generally linked with this formula. Sometimes only one grower strategy can change your opinion lol I’m hoping he will share some details …
Nah, they are not murdered. Maybe some amino acids, humic/fulvic stuff and a good foliar formula in your toolset to reduce the effect of this kind of “experimentation”, for further explorations of extremes ^^
I’m sad to can’t smuggle it on this specific logistic line ^^ I like to know the weed of people. Really.
The “buds on the table” discussions are my favorite ones.
For my point of view the occasional use should be an argument to push far the grade. Well in any type of context to be completely honest lol But when it belong to a philosophy, it’s not possible to argue and just an obligation to respect ;o)
Compare the plants buddy and eventually the real cost of use, i told you sincerely that the sole NPK rate don’t really matter. But the quality of the formulation and it’s assimilation by canna.
In the game of the nutrient’s list i can play it without feeling like a free add if enough large, with a genuine comment for each. When i say that i change nutes like shirt, it’s almost literal. Not a religion for me at all, and like you …
Some also are not necessary sold as hydro nutes but can be used with success in rockwool, and some are sold as hydro nutes and perform better in soil ^^ The game is wild.
With the nice spreadsheet behind, it’s dope. Thanks for the share.
But i insist, you will be surprised how much leverage can have the strategy used to mix the nutes over the NPK rate.
The famous “claws of the death”, textures are more important for me to be honest.
They just look fine and well feeded, the phototropism is stellar. Not too much or not, not enough.
Three more slots and you’re on the highway hehe
If it’s the runtz hybrid, cumulative good news for the dankness ^^ Romulan is dope too, but far more permissive and pleasant to grow. And she looooove to be pushed in hydro as fuck; prepare her well with a streamlined set you won’t regret the ride. Nice shot buddy.
Garden Update
Watering about a gallon of 1.5mS 6.0pH veg nutes everyday…because I’ll be getting new nutes Monday. Curious to see what the difference is. Anyway, don’t want to bother washing everything out until I fill with new juice. They are looking OK but some leaves are showing browning between the veins - I’ll ramble about this later I’m sure.
The mommas:
The seeds popping for the Solo Cup Challenge:
On the flower side I drained and topped up with RO to reduce EC to 1.75mS, took a little pH down to get to 6.0 but that’s where it is.
Trimmed some of the big fans off to keep light penetration decent. We’re at 75% on the light intensity, about 650umol on the tops of the big plants and 450umol on the small clones. Roots have been forced, quickly, with the light exposure. Big gains in vegetation every morning.
Trimmed up:
I have to go back and read the SOG threads more, learn how to prune properly for this environment.
General Update
I ordered 1 liter bottles of Canna Vega A + B, Flores A + B and the PK Booster. Trying out the local shops online buying, in-store pickup functionality. That’d be nice to save some time when I’m running by at lunch time rather than trying to find everything on my own. Secondarily I won’t wind up with as many unintended purchases…it can be like shopping for groceries when you are hungry, everything looks good. We’ll see how it goes. I’m actually having difficulty finding negative reviews other than the cost. It was tough deciding between Athena and Canna, maybe next time I change it up again. I’m matching my ECs up to where they will be at with Canna at the moment.
My goal here is actually to minimize my fussing with nutrients. I don’t want to be worrying about it much if at all. Feels like Canna is a better bet on that with the history. It’s what my gut tells me to do.
I’m curious about the MegaCrop reformulations. The first batch I bought spring 2022 had wildly different blend recommendations. And my analysis and decision was based on that, rather than the new ratios. I wonder if my mind was just accepting the changes were to be beneficial and blindly accepted rather than thinking critically, especially about the ridiculous N in flower.
It’s hard enough deciding what I want to run. Wife will neuter me if the number of plants gets out of control. I promised this season the plants will be smaller, I’ll plant later 
Luca’s formula was something I actually looked into but I’ll catch up on that thread. Thanks for the suggestions!
I agree completely. My only reluctance was a hesitation to bite off more than I can chew. It’s happened every summer without fail, start the season trying to be simple, by the end I’m a frazzled mess. I figured this first run inside I don’t mind the quality as much, goal is only selecting a few specimens to keep. Then I work on quality. Of course, we’re starting to get into that and I’m fine with it for now. But so you understand more my approach and logic. Manage the amount of information I have to uptake quickly.
Romulan hasn’t yet landed in my postbox. Monday hopefully, I fear she’ll be upset trapped in an envelope for a week. We’ll see how rooting goes.
Cheers
I’m the worse coworker or lead-something when it belong to hygenia of the crop, so i consider your maintenance as normal lmao But everything is clean and maintained clean, and i should fairly mention my visual appreciation for this. It was a great compliment swiss-styled ^^
Reliable, well buffered. But yes, not very economical (but the PK). On weed grade hell, it can be very competitive. Their biocanna dry as well that the Plagron line and can lure experienced people that you’re not in hydro. But not easy (for me) and the nutes are fragile (fridge required once opened).
Most of brands sell little packs just enough for a round, keep an eye on it for your exploration. It’s not easy to sell over the counter in growshop, not hard to discuss hardly the price and if you’re a diplomat beast, not hard to get it sold as pure loss lol
Trick : show to the vendor that you “nutrient-nerded” it a bit, and that you have a high chance to stay hooked by the line and to get the whole gamme one time you test it. Viciously, straight from the fingers of an ex-vendor/employee ^^
When i was digging again the GHE stuff (to hunt a bargain test-pack ^^), i crossed the path again of my very first bottled nutes lines : Bionova. It’s a very decent line, assimilation is good, but more build for barrel’s use. They produce splitted “cheap” N, P, K and micros bottled. And they are enough good to be used in foliar if any.
It’s not so about the brand itself, but maybe this is something to add to your toolset for your various test. In case of, you know that within 48hrs it’s fixed without foliar. Less with.
Pruning is counterproductive in SOG buddy, even with a NL that love it as a plant. It’s also a tech that can’t be applied to all strains with benefits over a “normal” grow.
Try to catch dutch tutorials on it, a lot of coffeeshops still furnished this way. Most of the time i read just a description of “the classic EU way” and not SOG at all : around two weeks veg from scratch, then flo.
To be the advocate of a maximized grammers/year ratio, i must say that it lower mechanically the use of nutrients. Even in “SOG from seeds”, it’s rare that I hit more than 50% of the max dosage.
Dope_Heffalump itched my competitive mind as fuck. There is no way that i don’t know for a fact this way to build monsters lol Wait a bit that i make one round refined on the clone of his manner to handle it, with reliable genetics and not tortured repros (soon enough). i will be able then to translate it in hydro/rockwool with smart advices and feedback on the grade of the weed and red zones to dodge.
That’s my chance someday then 
I like this epigenetic factors you described lmao, to bring back at home in seeds ^^ Just a bit of your terroir lol Not for tomorrow at all, the outdoor line i plan need quite a bunch of steps before.
Moms look good, and already ready to flower after a “renewal haircut”. I know it’s sadistic to say this at this point ^^
In flo they are gorgeous sincerely, and we have to talk about the maturity of leaves i guess for the defoliation ^^ No big deal it’s like the potency, a curve in “bell” in term of efficiency. Can’t wait to see a flower.
Romulan arrived after some delay. They must have landed yesterday evening after I checked the mail for the day. Went and checked today based on a gut feel to just go check again. We’ll see if she roots up.
They look a little tired, they’re already sterilized, scraped/recut and into plugs with rooting get and my magic clone doping juice. One looks much better than the other, I think it’ll make it. We’ll see how they look tomorrow in their little microclimate. May be foliar time.
Wish I had thought to snap pics when I put them into the tent but I was operating quickly to maximize my chances of success.
They are quite familiar with me in the shop, even though I wouldn’t call my appearance there commonplace. I stop in only every month or two for supplies, and try to avoid purchasing online when they also stock it. Much prefer to help support them as opposed to Amazon or whatever other online vendor. It’s invaluable to me to get what I need, especially if I have an emergency of any kind. Granted, I try to maintain adequate stock to obviate any real emergency situation. And I’ve already had many conversations about hydro, cloning, my micro flood/drain, the results of last years living soil experiments, my soil analysis and ammendments. My nerdiness is impossible to hide with all the questions I ask.
I can’t imagine how difficult it is to run a shop like that. We’ve had several discussions about that, the good distributors vs the difficult ones, margins, staying competitive, etc. Stocking lots of lines would be a challenge. To say the least. I’m excited they stock what I want, so I’ll purchase through them.
I’m sure we’ll get into a discussion about Canna when I walk in to pick it up.
I’ve gotten many free samples before, although I won’t be sad if not this time.
Noted. I’ve got some great threads to follow about SOG’ing over at ICMag. There’s a guy on here I correspond with via PM he doesn’t post much publicly, but heavy into that scene with a fantastic little setup. More reading as time presents itself today.
Curious about this. I was hesitant to cut any of them, they looked beautiful other than a slight amount of tip curling from the N. But I want light to the smaller ones, and retain the density as other plants get stuffed in there. Perhaps I’ll learn more during my next read of the SOG threads. Like a book, I seem to take something different every time I read the same things over again. Based on whatever my current situation is.
Cheers.
Pumped to see that Bahia Black Head in the 2024 line-up @FieldEffect.
Go Get’m, Solo cups are Small, I’m in the front row
Everything is looking good! Is the pineapple C99 from brothers grimm? have you grown C99 before?
Just got done rigging mine up, but I only bought the THC-S probe… I didn’t even notice the THCPH-S while shopping!! If yours works well I guess I’ll have to upgrade 
Hey @MissinBissin I was putting a card together with your name on it today 
@NoCal it is the Cinderella Pineapple from Brother’s Grimm, yes. I haven’t grown C99 but think it’ll be up my alley.
I’m super curious how any of them work. I don’t estimate the pH functionality will work fantastically well on the probe but we’ll see.
Sounds like Trouble brewing from the S.W. Bring-it on lol.
Thanks for the info on the Zacatecas Tribute x Zacatecas (Purple x Michoacan) cross. That will be the one taken outside as the Wild-Card
You Know it @FieldEffect, hugely appreciated
Mail went out today.
Came home with another 50 starter plugs, 5 discounted jugs of Canna nutes, and another propagation tray.
Hilariously I figured I’d have plenty to do the micro garden and the gardens outside, but not quite 
You could say this thing has been “growing” on me 
Did some veggie starts and drained the flower res. 2 5 gallon buckets of RO ready to mix up a new batch in the morning.
Here’s my new general garden propagation area. Got some Ghost peppers, Zapotec jalapenos, Atlantic Giant pumpkins and these purple tomatoes germinating.
Tomorrow pics of cannabis, I promise
Here’s the drain procedure (pull one of the foam blocks out). It worked pretty well.
Leaned configuration for drain
Back to normal
Flushed a few gallons of RO to rinse, refill with a medium dose of Canna Flores. Needed quite a bit of pH up to go from ~4pH to 5.8. The bus bins are great, 3 took care of the drain and rinse procedure. Really glad I picked that up @Dirt_Wizard
They are looking good I think.
Mixed up 1.5 gallons of Canna Vega for the moms. Needed a (to me) ridiculous amount of pH up to get to 5.8. Strong buffering in this line. I’m used to the MegaCrop taking about 10x less adjustment product to effect the same changes.
Cuts got another misting of foliar, seeds are still below the surface but I see some green getting ready to bust out
Cheers guys. Hectic morning over pink-red juice checking the numbers.
Am I an idiot just doing a 360 and changing my nutrient line in the middle of a run? Perhaps. I’m already strapped into the coaster now
Give them a little week to acclimate, the time to replace the old with the new totally in the vegetal mass.
Out of curiosity…
I’ve been using RO water with an EC of approximately 20uS. I had to add an unusual amount of pH up to achieve 5.8 pH, which is where I left it. New to the line so we’ll see how it stabilizes. I think my RO just has very limited buffering capacity because it’s got no carbonate
My non-RO tap water is about 0.6mS, so pretty hard.
The fundamental question, should I be concerned about adding pH up (the RO mix with Aqua produced pH 3.5-4), seems I’m adding quite a bit of elemental K? Would it be a better idea to mix RO with tap aiming for a higher water EC, say 0.2?
The Internet has produced the typical range of answers from “don’t worry about it” to “yes you are adding shitloads of K.” I can’t stop thinking about it now
imho filter the answer of those with the most filtered water of the pack (which was never my case btw), so the more close to your context.
K still not very responsive to PH, from memory i think it’s even the more reliable compounds on this matter. But there is so much parameters to have a real answer to this concern … it need true lab analysis. I can just confirm that RO/tap blend is a tech for some, the guy that showed me how work aero (prone to have an heavy high PH dynamic) used it. But also that a high carbon in your water is very not a good sign for your health if you drink it ^^
Nice dude! Glad to hear they’re working for you. I’m here today vibing and waiting for my first shift tonight at the new job, going to be slinging those all night!
And tagging @Nitt because maybe he can chime in he’s into the chemistry more than I am (I think anyway)
So my main concern was that I felt like I added 10mL of pH up to 1.5 gallons of veg solution. 1.5 gallons RO, 15mL Canna Vega A, 15mL Canna Vega B. EC 1.6mS, which was perfect. pH was 3.5 until I started dumping pH up in. All that was going through my head was, “well fuck I added more K in the pH up than I did in the nutrients themselves”
Which, is probably true. GH pH Up is between 10 and 20% potassium carbonate. Call it 15%. Potassium carbonate is ~50% potassium, and 50% carbonate (the part I want). So elementally 7.5%, making pH up 0-0-9 (K2O equivalent). I have no fucking idea why they don’t just plaster this on the front of the bottle. And I was adding almost as much of that as I did my intended nutrients that are 2.5-1.5-3. So I think they got OD’d on K this AM. No worries. I’ll fix it tomorrow.
My question was, am I out of my mind worrying about too much pH up? I don’t think I am…but perfectly happy to be wrong there.
Anyway, as I see it (half-witted armchair chemist I am attempting to be), I need more carbonate in my water to use this nutrient line. I’m doing an experiement tonight. I made 3 gallon jugs at 9mL A and B each, identical and precise. The only difference is my water starting EC. 2 jugs are ~0.17mS EC, the other is straight RO measured at 0.028mS. The “blend water” is a mix of 650mL tap water mixed with the balance of a gallon RO water.
The Canna line seems to be optimized for moderately hard water, and is engineered for pH stability. It was fucking HARD to rock it up in pH. Adding buffer carbonate with the pH up just bolstered that capability. But added a shitload of K that I don’t want. So we’ll try some carbonate from my tap water.
Tomorrow I’ll pH the 3 jugs and measure the pH up applications to each as well as starting pH. I may just be mixing tap water into my reservoirs. I can tap it off the prefilter system for the RO unit so it’s still clean, just loaded with carbonate still. I suspect my blend water is much more reasonable pH without any pH up. If I do add any, it should be a much smaller amount. It’s also possible I just fucked up the first mix this morning so there is a control jug with RO and the same precise measurement of parts A and B. We shall see. Hopefully I just fucked up this morning and overthought this whole thing. It wouldn’t be the first time Part of the fun of this is sharing the successful bits…and the not-so-successful parts.
@Dirt_Wizard hope the first shift went well and you are going to enjoy the new gig 
Your sequence look fine to my eyes, but i’m not very sure on the rate of assimilation of the K used in the PH+.
You’re suffering from the “losted island” syndrome here buddy, at the very first second that i smell something funky with my context with nutes… I’m usually harassing the contact emails of companies on the fly ^^ Shoot GHE with your concern, they don’t bite ;o)
Bonus : one of the most efficient way to buffer in carbon your medium (even rockwhool) is the humic acid ^^ Cost : it acidify.
