Sounds about right. So if light intensity is bright enough to read by then light levels are bright enough, as they are about a half hour before and after sunrise to sunset. Use civil twilight hours.
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I wasn’t referring to phenotype but “pheno”. Lol, a phenotype is something like blond hair, blue eyes or purple buds; observable traits. It’s my understanding that the term “pheno” may be cannabis growers slang, but it refers to plants withing a given populace that are physically distinct from others within the same population.
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Pheno is Greek for shine or shows. The second term added to pheno differentiates it to a more specific type of meaning. That is why the Greek terms are used; form of language that everyone can use in common when describing old and new observations and work being done. The standard like the metric system or American standard for weight distance and etc.
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It’s been explained to me that environment+genetics=phenotype.
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Pheno is short for phenotype
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Is Pheno really a useful tool for consumers?
TBH, I’m climbing the steep ramp up the learning curve regarding modern cannabis breeding and this thread is a gem of cogent discussion. Thx to all involved, I’m taking notes. 
I gladly acknowledge my insufficient knowledge on the subject ta hand, but I reckon I’m talking to folks who “Really know this shite!”
So, @Soiltech permitting, let me raise my hand in class and make an observation/argument based on what I think I understand from some recent comments above on our working definition of Genotype & Phenotype.
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The distinction between phenotype and genotype is simple.
A phenotype is an observed characteristic, something that is easily observable, like blonde hair.
A genotype on the other hand is something that is not easily observable like if someone is big boned The characteristics are in the genes just not necessarily expressed in an observable way. @Kabuddha -
We do not have homozygous, heterozygous, male, or female in regards to a population. What we have is strongly homozygous, heterozygous, male, and female. These things are not now nor have they ever been absolute. They are to be measured on a scale, always. @TomHill
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It is again simple to explain why breeders use the term pheno instead of geno as the “phenotypic traits” are what one typically observes growing cannabis (purple buds for instance). @Kabuddha
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Any plant you have ever seen is a phenotype, it is a product of genetics and environment. @TomHill
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It doesn’t necessarily make it '‘wrong’ ’ to use those terms if they are predominantly correct, and if majority of a group then adopts it as part of that particular sub-cultures jargon.[/quote]@Lady.Zandra63
Given those premises:
The term “Genotype” has no specific meaning because every observable characteristic defines a different genotype and the “unobservable” traits useful in defining a “Genotype” are, almost by definition, subjective and non-quantifiable.
OR, is Genotype the individual specific DNA map of an individual plant?
the genotype is the changes in the DNA and you can only see that if you sequence its DNA chain. > and you work seeing the variations in graphs. @Murciano207.
Phenotype also, being a reflection of both genetics and environment, seems incomplete as a useful terminology. For buyers, growers and breeders alike.
Since environment plays an important role in phenotype displays, seeds claiming a (any) specific “Phenotype,” i.e. observable characteristic, would necessarily depend to greater or lesser extent on how the plant was grown. Down to an arbitrary level of detail.
My point being that without specific environmental conditions the advertised “Pheno” may not manifest itself at all. If that is the case the phenotype is inherently dependent on unknown environmental factors, hence kinda meaningless in practical terms.
As an example I have S1 seeds from a White Widow female that reliably produces lovely purple buds when placed in a cold & dry environment during flowering. “Pheno” descriptions of that WW in full purple bloom without the key environmental factor mentioned or perhaps not even known, would be incomplete at best.
Consider a less “observable” characteristic like size? What complex set of grow conditions result in that “phenotypical size?” Yield? Nute prefs?
Or even SEX! “Strongly homozygous, heterozygous, male, and female @TomHill” There are certainly many “Feminized” seeds surfacing these days that prove to be more trending, rather than reliably, female. ** Is sex just a pheno? Gadzooks!
Not to belabor the point, but “Phenotype” alone seems to be failing us as a particularly useful tool.
Please don’t think I’m being contentious here, this thread is a gradschool course in genetics and I have a hungry mind! Enlighten me brothers.
Respectfully,
-Grouchy
“Popsicle Toes” my purple widow “Phenotype” 
PS:
Thx @TomHill, a reading list would be a great asset here… but a little more accessible than "Diploid Chromosome Behaviour and Panmixis… LoL
We are all just searching for that ideotype. (the ideal plant). @Soiltech Well said.
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Recently Sam did an interview. Talked about how in the old days a common thought was that environment played a bigger role than it does. Upon returning from his travels he realized it was genetics that really matter most. Most heritable traits express across a broad range of environments. Genetics>environment, nature>nurture.
We do not require a lab for genotyping plants. Example: take 4 elite phenotypes a,b,c and d. Self them all, grow out 30 progeny of each in 4 plots a,b,c,d. During observation we note that plots a,b, and d are highly variable therefore phenotypes a,b, and d are strongly heterozygous genotypes. Plot c produced a highly homogeneous plot most resembling phenotype c and therefore phenotype c is a strongly homozygous genotype. Selfs well, and we can expect it to cross out well too.
Another excellent book is R.W Allard’s Principles of Plant Breeding. More easily digestible, but I can’t find an online copy.
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Here you go, @TomHill : Principles of plant breeding : Allard, R. W. (Robert Wayne), 1919- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
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I was taught in Bio that Genotype- or Genome, means the plants/animals genetics, whether observable or not…
and that Phenotype was the observable traits CAUSED by the Genotype and some of the effects of the environment on those genetics…
Is this wrong–or am I just misunderstanding the conversation ???
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That is exactly correct. The thing is when many folk read genetics x environment = phenotype they imagine a 50:50 scenario when in practice it’s more like a 90:10 scenario.
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I’m jumping on that link as well…Thank you for posting it!!!
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Exactly…like all too many expect a predictable phenotype of every seed based on the parents phenotype… They don’t take recessive genes into consideration… you HAVE to know the plants entire genetic makeup… not just what the 2 parents ‘show’ if those parents have a huge lineage… it makes for a LOT of diversity in the DNA when crossing two ‘Frankenplants’, unless they are both completely homogenous.
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Also very correct. People think to themselves why can I go out and buy an honest pack of tomato or corn seed and be reasonably assured of what I will get but this shifty hack cannabis breeder is all over the place lol. It just doesn’t work like that folks - drug type cannabis is far more complex than all these other plants we are considering. I can breed a tomato or corn look and even taste like this or that but breeding a plant to make you feel like this or that when smoked? It ups the maths levels by an order of magnitude. It’s closer to strawberries than corn. What I mean is that these these quantitative traits coming together in perfect symphony is rare enough that we may as well be talking about trying to breed octoploid strawberry from seed. It’s just not done. They are clonally propagated due to insurmountable maths just the same as drug type cannabis should be.
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Perfectly cromulent
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nice grouchy man,
I agree of corse as one who has seen Studies how Enviromental Factors strongly correlate with Expression of Plants (the Studie were about Grapes). But its possible for cannbis aswell.
I still find it ok to use whatever Words one wishes.
I could siply say, that a Phenotype WILL express, under the condition that i found it express in various enviroments, right?
Its mathematically like this:
- There are phenotypes, but
- they express in certain Enviroments, and in some Enviroments they dont
Again, to say this, one needs to literally find the same Phenotypic Expression in various Enviroments.
And incase he really seen his “Phenotype” in only one enviroment, then its questionable if he should call it the one or the other way. but why not still call it phenotype.
Because it should ACTUALLY be nr 1 Priority to be aware how your Enviroment effects your Plants, and how to change your Enviroment… WICH is a big difficulty, its the most hard thing to do ever.
For me as landrace lover (Thaistick especially) , its actually alot eayser , puh. Cause i know, all i ever will want is to reproduce my Thais in Thailand. So, that the Enviromnent certainly will lead me to select what Thai Folks selected in the 70s. For people who grow actually Genotypes from these Origin Countries from far more South, its much more complicated…
There is a technique actually, to neutralize an Enviroment. I read about it on mr. nice Forum, but cant find it nomore… It would allow you to neutralize the enviromental impact, so you know that anyone who grows your selection later, in his Enviroment, will see the Phenotypes that you saw… Because your Enviroment was kindof neutral and had no abnormalities thowards any direction (high Copper, high this high that…)
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aahm… he realized that the GENETICS expressed on across a broad range of Enviroments. But what you probably forget is that these Genetics came from an Eviroment. They were selected in this Enviroment. Right?
So, as soon as Sam would have selected these Genetics in a “Unneutral Enviroment”, he would apply an uncontrolled selective Pressure. He wouldnt know if that extra juicy Pheno or whatever was ONYL displayed in his unneutral Enviroment. Or not. It would be a guessing game…
So, yeah, its for me who certainly researched Smokereports , very clear that most mindblowing smokereports come from Genetics from arond 0 to 20 Degree Latitude!!
thats a pattern showing that points thowards Enviroment played a role.
Further, one could say, but they expressed just better from 0 to 20 Degree latitude.
Nope,
A 70s Thaistick would express like the most mindblowing weed aslong it is grown under acceptable Conditions in a Indoorgrowroom (acceptable for a Thai, means of corse warm temperatures , strong Lights , not too dry… )
So, you would say, it expressed well in an Indoor Growroom. YES! more or less.
But each generation that you select it in this Growroom will add up, it will pushthe genetics into a NonThai direction. But the first Generation of original Thaiweed-seed was expressing good enough to blow mind.
(I know that it expresses like Absolute Tripweed, cause i smoked indoorgrown Tripweed of highest degree. Lifechanging weed)
I am no stranger Thai weed, been through tons of it, and it kicks ass across a broad range of environments over multiple generations, only failing through misdirected selection. This mistaken thought that environment matters so much is kind of a long term thorn in the side of canna culture. Goes back since time immemorial. From placing thorns in stalks all through a plethora of '70’s wives tales right up to today where guys will waste a $100 on a pint of glorified sugar water to pour on their plants thinking it will make their buds sweeter. Nah, yeah, nah, it’s all about genetics lol.
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i want to clarify, how a thai will change /not change was a Hypothesis.
I take it from my understanding of how Acoustics change the Audiofile that you play on a Cdplayer in an enviroment. (Thats unrelated, but i see paralells.)
I also dont know how many Generations are making a noticable change, if they doo… Gooeybreeder told me, even one Generation might change it a bit.
i thank you for your imput on this,doesent mean i just believe you… i dont believe any single voice, but ill notice it in my book, thanks !
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Go try to find me a decent Thai now for that matter any decent tropical. Gone man. Most are holding onto a sliver of memory, a meer shadow of it’s former glory. With guys trying to enjoy the different subtleties and all that. I don’t want subtle I want rip my face off shocking cerebral. Its in my pocket because of genetics, not because of some environment I am imposing upon it.
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so, i thought you implied your Thai DID express like rip your Face off when grown in your Enviroment, and even multiple Generations later? im confused now.
For me, i had smoked Tripweed, it was vietnamese, so its a kind high but intense high, or call it effective… and it was the strongest Experience in my live, so ill have problems to call the " mission Tripweed" impossible. Because it happend to me atleast.