My uneducated take on it is that this is just the low-tech version of flow cytometry, performed on a smaller sample size and with a microscope rather than computer analysis… maybe I’m confused. Either way, as I understood it, he was claiming to be able to identify aneuploids based solely on growing characteristics that any of us could measure with our five senses, which is quite a difference.
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Apologies on my delayed reply. Family first. I don’t know how to use the quote features so I’ll just tag each person. I wrote out responses, but realize that each of you likely already have greater knowledge than me and your own experiences in any number of areas so please don’t take any offense. They are written with the assumption that others reading may not have familiarity and context. Also. I have been told I am hard to understand… I switch back and forth between voice to text and fat thumbs and a dozen other tasks all day. A word salad is a likely result.
Also. This thread is already including the 2 most contentious subjects in cannabis on day one.
Haze and Ploidy. I’ll always try to be respectful first and ask the same. Also. For those that know me also know I have no fucking problem creating a total shit show with bullies, but this is a project and ask that it be done elsewhere 
@Emeraldgreen you are correct. From my experience the Nigerian Silk like most other haze types is confined to the same sliding scale. The endeavor to fit all of hazes novel effects and profiles into a faster tighter production package has been an ambition for decades, but always ends up on the same. The metabolic processes necessary just cannot fit in the window. The improved effect or introduction of novel terpene combinations into the package seems realistic though…an exception might be clv1 meristem mutation bx like what many are finding in Bandaid 3.0.
What I found here is not exclusive. This plant was a 13w haze, 3gallon, 3.4 oz dried and trimmed from 1 sqft of canopy. The meristem mutation resulted in a helical trident very close to the Fibonacci sequence. Further, each of what would normally be a foxtail became its own whole flower. Fractals. This allowed for full light penetration and optimal air flow. I have no doubt that a 5×5 600w would kick out 4lbs of flower mold free without issue if the exchange was continuous. Even in this example it isn’t a production flower because there is no way the mechanize trim that I know of with this type.
@Cormoran I invited a friend to break down all of the ploidy indicators to be done prior to cytography. I have conducted most of the ones I can at this point and so far they have been consistent with ploidy. Attached is some more explanation on what I believe is meristem mutation. It has been confirmed that these mutations or visually anomalous indicators have been documented on both the Nigerian Silk and Nevil’s 5haze side so they are being stacked on both sides in the Nigerian Haze. In around 8 different Nigerian Haze lines prior to the Alpine projects these mutations become recessive and buried. If worked to none Equatorial/haze they seem to disappear…until Alpine mom Silk S hit Soulmate. I have a theory which is why Wookie was selected for this…
It is not a goal of mine directly, but the more I pursue my other goals and personal processes the more radical the mutations becomes. There are hundreds of these pictures uploaded to the beanbasement on a dozen different threads. Just about anything you can imagine visually has occured. These mutations occasionally come up in other lines. My particular work has them coming up all at once in every combination at every stage. I don’t select for mutation specifically, but it is occuring.
For years I would describe the original 5haze and haze5 from Nevil’s The Seed Bank as a total mutant. Calyx’s and trichomes 3-5 times anything I have seen. Trichomes as dense a on flowers all the way to the trunk. All leaf production would entirely cease upon flower. Single flowers that would fill jars with only bracts on needle trich stems. Every single node…no fans just clusters of bracts. A mutation I have not seen since all at once.
I was thought to be crazy of exaggerating for years. However, over the last 3 years these are all occuring in my garden as well as other pursuing haze. The real exciting things are occuring out of Nevil’s lines that have these visual indicators present.
So basically taking action to select crazy and imaginary is materializing into reality. I am glad I was cursed and blessed with that first experience because I would have stopped seeking many years and plants ago content that I found the peak of the mountain. I hope that the check list coming is helpful for you or others with curiosity on the potentials of mutations in cannabis.
There are many more of these mutations, but a few are here. Most of them can be found on both sides of Nigerian Haze. Both Nevil’s original 5haze and Nigerian Silk . From tests so far it appears that the petiole mutations are a progenitor to other mutations like the hook leaf found in Bandaid /Cuban Black Haze
*Meristem mutation research was done by B , Piffcat, DX4
@Tykal I absolutely loved reading your description, but your genuineness as a person comes through which is the best part imo🙏
Thanks for your patience. Back to the family and garden for now💓
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Thanks @syzygy
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I’m a bit confused. Was this the explanation of how you determined ploidy? Meristem mutations, or any other mutations, are all well and good and might be the result of polyploidy… or they might not be. As far as I know, there’s no way to tell just by growing characteristics. If you’re saying there is, that’s at odds with accepted science and I’d expect some proof. Have you tested to make sure that these traits you’re saying are the result/indicators of ploidy are actually on polyploid plants, and more to the point, that these traits only occur on polyploids? So far all you’ve described is locking down a recessive gene.
Also worth noting is that aneuploids are so-named because they have, literally, “not a good number of chromosomes.” They’re all virtually sterile, making breeding exceptionally difficult, though not impossible. Typically when they can breed, the results are diploid/tetraploid/etc. Mostly what I’m saying is that ploidy is irrelevant to your breeding project past the first step, of pollinating the aneuploid plants and getting viable seeds. Most of the pollen will be inviable, according to what I’ve read, and won’t even develop into seeds at all.
Anyway, I’m still skeptical about the ploidy here - it almost seems like you guys just decided it was polyploid because it has cool mutations - but it’s still an interesting breeding project whether or not it involves polyploids. I was just curious to see if you actually had a way to determine ploidy without lab testing that the rest of us might be able to take advantage of.
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@cormoran thank you for your questions. I will write an intro and invitation on the subject of poloidy at the Alpine Haze 1.0 thread.
I will be able to offer images and metrics to trained academic there where some of the terminology, indicators and processes can be broken down.
I also want to offer something on my selection process. Poloidy was never a goal. My breeding goals have always been to drive novel terpenes and cannabinoid higher in equatorial haze. I have always been clear about my hierarchy of selection and processes.
It is near impossible to track traits among equatorials and haze visually so the e mutations were initially incorporated with the intent of tracking the dominant cultivars in that process.
It has since developed into its own thing. Regardless of what I have going on in my line breeding accessions I hope it serves as a teachable example for those who are trained and or interested in this subject matter.
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Gotcha. So you don’t have anything except your word that these techniques exist, or at least not that you’re willing to show mere mortals. I think you’re full of it, but I suppose it’s academic. Best of luck with whatever the hell it is you’re trying to do other than impress people with your misspelled sciencey vocab. 
Can’t even spell aneuploid, but you expect people to believe you know how to recognize them by sight when the rest of the scientific world can’t…
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I can see you’re responding again and I don’t really care. I’m putting this thread on mute and you on ignore for a year; if, as you say, evidence is forthcoming then I’ll check it out later when you’ve succeeded beyond everyone’s wildest expectations because of how awesome you are and how willing you are to ask the questions others aren’t. 
I don’t have time for your games, otherwise.
And btw, I was genuinely curious at first… until you decided to attack me because you don’t like questioning. I think that’s simply because you’re full of it, but time will tell.
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Well then @Cormoran . I apologize for misinterpreting your posture. You asked some useful questions in the first post.
They deserve a complete answer and list of indicators that would be helpful in pre-qualifying a specimen. There are academics involved in this topic. I requested this from my friend and he emailed me pages of very useful checkpoints we have already went through and more that we haven’t. Another PHD initiated a conversation with my on this in response to this thread.
I welcome their involvement and collaboration to develop this conversation further on the Alpine Haze 1.0 thread for you, myself and others to learn from.
I can contribute a lot more regarding images as well as terpenes and cannabinoid testing on that thread as well.
@Cormoran . I am going to edit this tangent here to be more relevant to the test tube stage we are in here. Please review my edit in around an hour and revise as you wish.
I will write an invitation on this subject over at that thread and we can see where it goes. Regardless of what I am working with it can serve to clarify the subject matter further.
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I’m that PhD! Lot of genetics in my background!!
Really excited to keep track of this, they’ve got polyploidy plants available in hemp and this is definitely a hot topic among researchers.
I do have a method for how you can screen for polyploidy that leverages well established genetic principles and the information gained from hemp. In general, polyploid plants can only successfully reproduce with plants of the same ploidy level. If there is a mismatch, seeds can still be made but they will be nonviable or sterile because of the mismatch. Trisomy 21 (where a person has 3 chromosome 21s) results in down syndrome. This next part is going to sound real bad. Typically, extra chromosomes like this are very detrimental to organisms fitness. That is not to say people with down syndrome are lesser than anyone else, but this is a trend you see over and over in biology. Down syndrome was just the easiest example and one most people are familiar with.
What this means, is if you suspect you have a polyploid and diploid parents, they should produce sterile offspring. If you take one of your suspected polyploids and cross it to a known diploid and the result is sterile offspring (you can check by performing crosses with the offspring). This isn’t the quickest or most technical method, but it will give you an idea of whether you have a polyploid or not.
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Welcome @ThePotanist ,
Thank you for taking the time to offer insights for myself and others
The S1 were almost a complete failure regarding viability. 7 seed from a whole plant. Some outcrosses have had great viability while others very low. The f2 was good viability. I have more specific and important information to add on this, but don’t have time atm.
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Here are some studies i found.
Just for good measure… Heres an entire course on plant breeding which includes much information about this
http://ecoursesonline.iasri.res.in/mod/page/view.php?id=7650
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Yooo!!! @CocoaCoir coming strong with receipts! Love to see this!!
That weed evolution paper is really cool. I had a class where we spent a lot of time on weed evolution and herbicide resistance and we never had a chance. Historic weed populations have been found to carry genes that confer herbicide resistance and all we did was heavily select for that gene when we started only spraying
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aneuploidity in humans is not tolerated but its a whole different story for plants. there are going to be plenty of lethal combinations of different karyotypes dependent on the breeding method used. its expected that a certain amount of the seed will be non viable, and even more with undesirable phenotypic changes. however the seeds which are viable and make it will be a treasure trove of diversity capable of stacking beneficial unbalanced chemotypes. intentional trisomic aneuploid series have been used to determine the location/function of specific genes/traits in many plant species. since the extra chromosomes will increase expression of the duplicated material in each single trisomic.
the final selection of viable desirable aneuploids will usually be sterile and to me this is a great atvantage when theyre used for production. the very same chromosome abnormalities consequences which make the plant sterile are also responsible for the extreme phenotypes we are hunting for. the natural observed polyploids/aneuploids in feral plants give us a baseline of what to look for when identifying germinated haze seedlings .
increased stomata size with a reduction in stomata number
hetergenous pollen grains- the main driver of aneuploids in 69 haze progeny is the ability of the haze A male to pass down more then normal diploid progeny.
while the a5 f1 only shows minor morphological identifiers, however when selfed an explosion of phenotypes were produced that number in double digits. every a5 s1 and outcross looks different and nearly all are mutants. nevils 69 males were the earliest filial generation preserved and this made all the difference. females are less likely to pass on aneuploid traits through several generations .we can use all this knowledge to make aneuploids of our own and in the process cram in more haze diversity.
4x tetraploid x 2x diploid= 3xtriploid
3x triploid x 3x triploid= aneuploid
or
3x triploid x 2xdiploid= aneuploid
breeding formula for aneuploiids can be accomplished by selfing a triploid, or crossing a diploid to a triploid.
this relies on the meiotic errors which occur during triploid gametes. since there are only 2 poles but 3 sets of chromsomes all types of different chromosome counts will end up in the progeny.
so the first step is to create a triploid .
we do so by crossing a tetraploid to a diploid.
in order to create a tetraploid we can use oryzalin soak on germinated seedlings can double the chromosome count by disrupting mitosis(cell division).
while creating the triploid
decide which lines will fill each role. the tetraploid should be a selected male from the transformed oryzalin seedlings.
the diploid should be the queen female the haplotype we want to spread to all the swarm aneuploids. for example nevils favorite 78 tia female would be a superb diploid queen.
the possibilites are endless…
maybe u want a haze A derived tetraploid lets say piff s2 put to high ocimene orissa diploid and selfed would be a good one…
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Welcome to OG @dx4 ! Most of the information on forums regarding cannabis ploidy leads back to you. I would love to see a composed thread. I know @CocoaCoir , @HolyAngel and the @ThePotanist all have an academic background and a genuine curiosity to explore, engage and contribute on the topic in a productive way.
I can offer up many images, observations and I am open to advice on conducting trials/breeding schedules with my genetics. The results add to the knowledge base regardless. This particular thread and the Alpine thread are probably inadequate to house the conversation in whole, but I can add material and observations for discussion. I actually have many specific questions I would like answered so I can implement them and put them into action. They would just lead off topic in these threads.
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A few people are growing Odisha here now.
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One of the exciting potentials for me is from a chart you posted on another thread.
The plants that have had visual mutations have at times had very uncommon combinations of terpenes. I believe a potential of ploidy is metabolic abnormalities that could lead to rare recombinations of terpenes…and cannabinoids.
@CocoaCoir has conducted well planned breeding experiments to achieve uncommon cannabinoid combinations and ploidy may ve another potential to that end
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I will be following this one for sure. Very interested to see how this goes.
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Me too!
I have numerous specimens I would like to have examined for ploidy. A couple indicators are pollen grain irregularities and size as well as stomata size (from my understanding). I can collect and prepare samples.
How and where do I go about this action. Do a contact a particular extension office at an AG university? Please advise.
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