I’m in the process of learning more about cannabis genetics and its crossing behaviors in an effort to produce quality seeds with accurate lineages. I would like to avoid the risk of unwanted crosses.
I’m planning to grow 3 feminized Harle-Tsu and 3 Valentine X (both 30:1 CBD) and spray with silver colloid to get S1 seed runs for each.
After sprayed with silver colloid, will the plants produce pollen and could they cross-pollinate if they are flowering in the same room? Or would S1 fem seeds for each variety be produced in absence of pollen production? I’m leaning towards thinking of playing in safe and running one variety at a time per grow season.
I would like to know more about this from growers more experienced than myself, on how to preserve the genetic precision of an S1 feminized seed run.
My goal is to both produce S1 seeds for both varieties, as the seeds were expensive, as well as flower for medical RSO production.
But I am unwilling to grow two strains at the same time in the same basement room if it means the genetics could cross. My grow rooms are thoroughly sprayed down all around with hot water between grow cycles. I wash the entire room — floor, walls, and floor joists and subfloor above between grow cycles.
Do you all recommend I play it safe and stick to one cultivar per grow cycle? Need all tips and advice on how to ensure good S1 seed production practices. All input is welcome and appreciated.
If the process is successfull, yes. But reversed good females are far from producing like natural males, and ask some practice to know well the timing of the pheno used.
No pollen, no seeds.
Your best bet in the context is actually to reverse one to pollinate the other with it. It will cheat a bit the degraded start by heterosis, but don’t wait miracles.
The principle of S1 is that it’s an exploded kit in seeds of the pheno reversed.
ValentineX is 70 bucks the 10 pack and the other 80 bucks. Their max is to finish as motherplant to produce weed. This is freaking very expensive yes, specially for lines available on multiple different labels ^^
Hunt regs or cuts of Cannatonics and Harlequin, it’s a far better starting block for your CBD weeds. And it’s solid genetic directly, not indirect chunks with the potential already locked.
You can collect and freeze the fem pollen to manage the timings. But yes if you do everything in the same space, they will naturally cross.
I’m applying your procedure of cleaning once a week here, it’s a basic necessary maintenance from my point of view and not specially linked with pollen.
If you don’t want F1s of these twos fems yes, and i swear you don’t ^^
@Fuel Thank you for your detailed response. I have a good number of regular seeds for other varieties but have difficulty finding regulars for certain strains. I was unable to find any of the two varieties in regular seeds. I chose them particularly because of the higher CBD to THC ratio and overall higher % CBD test levels (20 for Harle-Tsu and 25 for Valentine X). I’m interested in how to reverse the females. I would love to hear more about how you would go about doing that. Also, I chose those varieties because I am trying to create an RSO product that is as low as possible in THC to ship to a patient overseas. Many of the Cannatonic and Harlequin regular cuts appear to have a 1:1 CBD ratio. I guess I mean to say I may be okay with the inbreeding aspect of it for the sake of having a low THC RSO that I could ship to my patient friend in Lithuania where the laws allow CBD but prohibit all THC.
Check the “CBD crew” work (Mr Nice sub-label), being not so in the CBD they aren’t line i’m watching.
Best bet imho is to get simply a cut of one of the twos, but be ready for a long and painfull search to be sure to get exactly what you want ^^
The weed ^^
The fems are just the very first step of an aggressive and artificial “return” to monoecy. It have consequences on a drug cultivar (THC, CBD, THCa whatever the compound of the chemotype).
If you stay in the mirage of the very first gen, and for the stash only : all good. But it’s a bland genetic material that represent the longest path possible to take versus the natural seeds.
I got many math demonstrations to show me that fems lines can evolve. Not a single bud that prove it since 20 years, even against the reg line of the same label lol This idea never come from a breeder lol, most (littles) are just pissed to sell fems. But people no longer buy genetics but seeds-to-smoke, so it changed the priorities. Don’t use seeds-to-smoke for breeding.
Now to explain you herms dynamics in cannabis in a shot, it’s quite a ride. But basically you use latent herms barely able to be reversed with STS from a stable line, to make the magic happens.
With a reg line, you don’t play randomly with majority of autosome traits that shuffle at each pairing again. With some method, you can set a process that insure a better weed the next gen : more potent, more “fruity”, more whatever … by the effort of selection on both representations (males and females).
Males were there in the dank lines before we started to think they were useless. And all the most expensive and hunted genetic today, is pre-fem ^^
The autonomy in seeds and getting used with reversal, that’s a very good decent starting block. Rome was not made in one day. At the moment you’re realistic on the grade you’re dialing, consider as experimental lines to don’t bet too much on when you will be more in ease and ready to hunt a specific genetic as far that in the guts of the hell lmao
I need a detailed description of your context, just technical without details. Space, expected rotation, plants you can sacrifice for breeding use …
Genetically i will just contact the CBD Crew that i know reliable on this matter. But getting a cut of the ACDC, Cannatonic, charlotte’s web too will be more my approach. And a 4 digits budget for chromatos for each round, to insure the improvement of the balance or at least its stabilization.
Thats a detailled constraint. In this case go full throttle on charlotte’s web more, every time i read something on RSO it’s quoted.
Now why not just using hemp directly with very high CBD rates ? Instead the 1:1 that is a specific use.
The hunt to find genetics will be a lot more easy that with hunted 1:1 popular cuts or lines.
@Fuel Excellent information as always brother…I agree 100% with you on acquiring the regulars. I will add AC/DC, Cannatonic, and Charlotte’s Web regular seeds to my collection as soon as I can afford to do so. Just wanted to know if it made any sense to silver colloid the fems to avoid having to keep a perpetual mother hemp plant for cloning, and maybe have a seed stock of beans from the original 3 fem beans I have for both varieties. Certainly bland genetically but trying to save some money.
Agreeably the most expensive aspect of this type of journey would be the chromatography budget…Although maybe at the expense of genetic development, could it feasibly be more practical to functionally choose the frostiest phenotypes of the S1s and spend the budget on a heating mantle and round bottom flask glass distillation setup to simply boil out the THC and be left with a CBD RSO isolate and then just get that isolate chromatography tested to save money on otherwise higher iterations of chromatography testing. I’m sure I would want to pursue the regular seed to ultra CBD to THC ratio regular phenotypes later on in my career but thousands in testing would probably be drawing blood from me. Would feel more comfortable investing the money into lab equipment to boil out the THC at that point.
Technically speaking, I am working with a 12 plant (Michigan) state limit, two 12 ft L x 10 ft W x 8 ft H flowering and veg rooms, three Gavita Pro 6/750e DE Flex lights (120-240V ballast), three 750W Gavita HPS DE bulbs (400V), and Pelonis 50 Pint Dehumidifier, four 32 site oxycloners, and a 4x8 breeding tent. I’m currently unlicensed. I can apply for an industrial hemp license with the state to try get a 100 hemp plant limit for a $100 application fee. Processing license (RSO extraction rights) would be an additional $1,200. I am a 3 time felon so I’m not exactly confident my application would be approved anyway. Maybe this year or the next I will gamble the $100 and submit an application for the 100 Hemp Plant license which would indeed be a game changer if I am not denied for my record.
S1 basic s . Don’t pollinate the same plants?
Not too sure what you are planning to do actually?
You may not understand that if you create s1 seeds it means you take a clone of a plant then you spray that …. Then you use the pollen to dust the original plant or a clone of it.
It sounds like you are creating plain feminised seeds in your description, or at least it is unclear. There’s a number of ways to do it depending on your limitations. First off your fem strains may be weak and not clone at all.
@jonathan77 I have some feminized seeds and I just want to multiply them really, and retain their genetics as much as I can to avoid the cost of buying them again, so I am planning to spray with silver colloid on feminized plants. And I learned now that I should have one strain per grow cycle at a time when doing this, and that feminized seed runs are inbreeding and inferior to regular seed runs for genetic preservation.
Ok. So you are just making feminised seeds from feminised seeds. You are not making s1 seeds at all like you stated. It sounds like you don’t understand the difference.
Never mind. If you are determined to do as you say……… the difficulty is simply what I said. Can you take clones without this fucking out ?
If yes , then you grow your strain. Take clones, meanwhile flower your strain and select your best plant. This is the one you spray with the silver and pollinate the other clones.
I’m not even getting into the discussion of … is this a good idea. I don’t know. Try it out I would say . You will learn firsthand. Don’t make assumptions about any failures or success unless you consider all variables.
Your success in completing this little project depends upon cloning
Ya I’m just a beginner with the genetics stuff but learning a lot from the community members here. Ok I’m starting with 3 fem beans, grow ideally 3 moms if they germ, then I can take 9 clones, flower them, and pick the hardiest clone then spray with silver thiosulfate on the hardiest flowering clone. Gather pollen and store it. Will plant the rejected clones in the wild as an experiment, because of my 12 plant limit, to free up space for more clones. Then keep cloning for more to look for the next hardy clone for the female. And keep going until I have a collection of hardy pollens from ideally a few phenos, and a collection of hardy female phenos to pollinate. Really wish a Valentine X regular seed even existed. Just working with what’s available on the online market. My guy in California said he won’t have any regular CBD seeds ready until May so this should keep me busy. Hope I’m on the right track here… I might just end up looking for a hardy Cannatonic or Charlotte’s Web male pheno… to use on the Valentine girls but all the CW regulars are out of stock everywhere — the lack of inventory is frustrating
Ok somehow managed to find Green Bodhi’s Charlotte’s Web and Cannatonic 2 x 21 regular packs… $4 per seed but what can I say, they don’t really exist hardly anywhere. Will start here for pheno and pollen hunting I suppose and just cross it to the Valentine X and Harle-Tsu fems to get regular seeds back. Expensive, but I hope the investment is worth it for my patients later down the road…
Charlotte’s web is an US amateur line, you will go faster to hunt directly a cut (level : hard). Imho, bet full throttle on this one and to don’t be affraid to throw three digits for a genuine cut. Or verify twice ^^ Well, what costed both fems.
Cannatonic is initially an EU seed line from a seedbank, they blurred the map with a bullshitted pedigree to hide that they ripped an important spanish collective. To use the reinha or the lacrimosa, you almost need to be vouched by the pope lol With time, you will find reg seeds around. Don’t source them in USA, most of what i saw sold as Cannatonic cuts are at most blatant outcrosses. Even in EU, tale care and use a big referential in documentation.
ACDC is quite used in US and is saw genuine cuts while i was hunting a SD. Many charlottes x ACDC project, that i find more valuable personally than one of the both to develop a dialed 1:1.
Now i repeat, it’s not strategic if you don’t need any THC inside your RSO. You will have far higher CBD rates and stability abut it with a specialized hemp line.
It’s an obligation, a stoner can’t replace such tool to maintain such balance. It’s a cost of development to take in count in the project. At least a batch of samples once a year with a strict traceability. I think that the access to chromatos is far more easy and cheaper than in EU, verify my fear about the costs.
When i want to empty my pool, i don’t fill it before ^^ Then to increase its size, i don’t dig the same hole lol
You can find legal hemp seeds stabilized around 30% CBD, the only rate you need. In fact, you can directly produce your oil atm i’m writing. Legally ^^
Get these hemp seeds and the lab then, it’s the more direct.
That’s a fucking sound i’m liking ^^
Most of constraints will be rotations then and a neat planning of the season.
If you start to think about limits, forget about breeding. We are all forced to rape the jokes that they are calling laws. They are written with the feets by people that don’t even know what is cannabis and how it’s growing lol If you don’t pull out containers of weeds and cash each quarter … should be fine ^^
In the balance … sometimes it’s a disadvantage. To get started i mean.
I will think about a bulletproofed application with the help of an expert or a lawer specialized, once the chain is fully mastered and that production can be projected. At least to know what is really hot or cold, you have often surprises.
Just working with hemp offer a lot more margin buddy, specially if you work with stamped scientifically or industrial lines. Not joking.
Don’t, it’s no sense. Decent fems can be only produced. One shot only.
Nice underlining, i interpreted as he wanted to self the selection on the fems.
That’s what is killing me. The whole sound fine buddy, without entering in details. But just the fucked start genetically … that make all these efforts almost vain.
I give up … lol Why the hell in the universe you will pollute these phenos hardly obtained with a random fem of white label ? Out of my understanding.
Re-focus on the goal buddy, and use the STS to understand why it can’t produce reliable genetic material. Instead. It’s very fast to realize what cost the laziness to cull males of actual growers : the whole fucking smoke and the absence of real loud weeds in fems ^^
@stonerbudz Sure I would love to share some beans when I am further along this adventure. I’m quite excited to explore the CBD world. As long as my patients find relief, it will feel worth any cost.
I am budgeting to upgrade the electrical panel this year to 200-300 Amps and add two to four NEMA 6-15 250V outlets (1-2 per room). I have some Phantom 1000W DE lights with 240V ballasts which my utilities are under-equipped to use, and a few new 1000W DE bulbs I am so excited to try. One of the bulbs is a 10000K color ultra blue MH finisher DE bulb with incredible UV spectrum. Can’t wait to see how well it frosts up the final 2 weeks before harvest.
Ironically I don’t smoke anymore for employment reasons. In commercial truck driving, we get regularly tested for cannabis on multi panel drug screens. I do miss it every day. But these days I just grow for the love of it, and to help my neighbors and patients out.
@Fuel Your right about the cuts… I will look locally and see if I can find a nice hemp clone within my state. It would be well worth the money for a head start. I feel very comfortable starting out with Green Bodhi Genetics as his stuff is fire. It may even outperform any clone I find here in the state, who knows.
And I hear you, I probably won’t end up crossing the GB regs to the white label fems. I’m a rookie with the breeding stuff and just threw the idea out there to see what you thought about it, and I can see how it would be a bad idea. I will just keep them genetically separate, self them on their own, and store them for later in case I want to explore them later. Certainly I will focus the main body of work starting with F1 of the GB lines.
Indeed the profit margin is higher on hemp. The market is larger, and the regulations are less strict. The price of RSO is often challenging for patients to afford it these days due to the little supply and large demand. $1300 in licensing fees also costs a lot less than the $13000 it costs for a non-hemp license. The market is also lagging in every way in the hemp sector while demand continues to increase. I am not sure how the EU hemp varieties are, but if you recommend a good breeder I may try them out. Very excited about being able to find what seems to be the last of Green Bodhi’s exclusive CBD lines. I will look around my region to see if any ultra medical CBD clones are on the market.
I really should go to trade school and be an electrician at this point instead of trucking with the kind of demand I have constantly for electrical work…lol. Those 1000 watters are going to kick ass once I get the new outlets installed.
@Fuel If you have any tips on what phenotypic traits I should look for when choosing a male plant, I would love to learn more from you. Some come out tall and lanky others stout and bushy. Or do you recommend I keep every phenotype of males pollen for genetic diversity in the pollen freezer just in case. Let me know your ideology about trait selections for males and females. Learning a lot here. I am confident the Green Bodhi genetic lines would compete well with any breeder’s stock world wide. His work is excellent.
I’m growing 100% neons for the UVs (partially). But holly shit 10 000K ^^, you will get full throttle the 450-500 range for sure lol Really curious to see the plants under … MH and CMH are bulbs i’m loving, but not proper for my small scale and insane energy costs. My padawan is under DE, it took me 2 years to convince him to throw the LEDS, only one round of DE was necessary ^^
That’s the point yes, obtaining a solid certified base then blending it patiently with stuff you particularly appreciate. Breeding out the THC will be a ride in keeping all precursors making a good smoke, i prevent.
I’ve inbred to F6 one line of Sweet Tooth #3 back in the day. The goal was simply to hit the 6% terp and to choose the finalists on chromatos only. I had the hand on the finalists, the chromatos that Canna sent me were the final decision. I failed the goal, the highs core was 5% and obtained with a male. The genotype was at 4% in average. Be fore i gave up, i organized an expensive quantitative screening only based on chromatos to avoid chances of interactions between the two selections : it was worse.
Since this costly facepalm, i consider chromatos in breeding differently. My advise for your case is to only test your elite specimens of selection in chromato.
But to inbred solely in a range of high CBDa seedlings. You launch your rotation from seeds (your or whatever), you wait the next node after the cotyledons node, you sample massively … and you send it for PCR that detect CBDa. It’s called “hemp test” in USA services generally.
It will detect only the lowest THC plants, then offer you the perfect range to improve your lines.
In term of genetic market, the rarity is more linked by the interest of home-growers. Also because advanced lines already exist in the industrial world.
Grouping what the scene have made the best + solid hemp lines that break the roof of CBD levels … can be a good deal for your RSO. In offering you some margin to make some breeding so.
But when the final product is a concentrate like this, sincerely you will not change much the quality of your RSO by the genetics. Just the yield and the efficiency, in injecting 30% lines.
If it was the case, you will not be able to buy it without passing a year to find a it ^^
With bribes lol
Yeah but i find the project cool, even if the final project don’t concern me. Now i discover on the fly that you don’t need any breeding to reach your goals but it’s another subject ^^ I grow for seeds since years, it’s my main priority and pleasure as well.
You can mix pleasure and duty, i’m sure. You can adapt a line to your style of grow and specialize it to obtain the best RSO quantities with best rates. I don’t know stupid example, you’re in hydro and dial big batch of clones : you want a line that clone fast and vigorously, even if it make it improper for outdoor by water consumption … this kind. Nutes uptake also, why not … an hungry genotype is more expensive to dial ^^
There is no point to self them. They are fems buddy … and generally just F2s of the main line. So you will make a F3 S1 … from fems. Don’t burn these marvelous spectrums at it lol
Selfing the 1:1 CBD cuts we talked about, hell yeah it make sense. It will permit you to see how it’s made inside and with what. Any elite THC cut too, reversal is initially a fabulous tool of empirical genetic mapping.
Call it a day and enjoy them for what they are : just weed to smoke. Who know, you will maybe find a cut that you will like to smoke daily a time ? What’s wrong with this.
Only with a 100M factory and scales that are quite consistent ^^ The feminized THC lines of all types are the dominant market, as well that hemp processing still expensive for industrial use.
Working in a niche like CBD RSO is in my opinion an easier bet. You can have a neat projection of the demand and its volumes very fast.
It take me two years straight to teach it to someone, in a productive context. With improved pedagogy, it’s my 5th and last padawan actually.
First consider that males are just the brothers of the plants that you’re smoking. Until they flower, they are the same and selected the same way. So in veg, there is no sex linked rules in general.
Second, you don’t have the choice : you have to make you familiar with the floral quality of a male. In flowering totally one, even for nothing. The flowers are different, not the genetic. They make buds too, it’s that it’s not from the same flowers.
So generic rules don’t exist, they are set by the line you’re working. And you have to make a map of these rules, before starting to select. That’s the only thing you can learn, the leverages and the traits worked will be teached by the line you’re working.
A stretchy male in a thai line, even an hybrid … make sense.
As a short packed leafy male make sense for an industrial hemp line.
They don’t have any separated breeding plans here. A skunky phenotype stay a skunky phenotype, male or female in my sight.
I select also seedlings on shapes, undeclared. It’s representing my well my grid of priority i think, philosophically. I’m not saying that’s it’s a key of success, but it’s what make the difference with me.
I grow at least 50% for the seeds produced each time that i germinate … seeds lol It’s an infernal loop that last since decades. A couple of breeders abused in their shares about the enigmatic male that most of growers are not used to dial.
But the truth is that there is no enigma at all. Just like in the crop of everybody around, until they are flowering you consider them as a single group. It’s extending to the flowering stage. The more you flower them, the more you get used to pick the right ones. Just like their fucking sisters lol
Even the regime of nutes are not to rewrite. They just consume a bunch more of PK than females, specially if chelated.
For your project i’m a bad influence and not relevant. I make only recreative stuffs, strongly in the Team THC lol
But that’s an important advise that helped me. When you need to know the niche rule and rules of thumbs, search who rule really the game in term of grade. Then get influence from there first, on your own. It’s helping also to don’t do shit you can’t, it saved my ass more than twice ^^ But not virtual i mean, meeting really the people and the weed (or RSO in your case).
I’m definitely going to look around the local area and see if I can meet any RSO/Hemp strain engineers. All very exciting. Here’s the two DE MH bulbs I have. Can’t wait have the 240V outlets wired for them. Thirsty bulbs.
