Add to the fact there have been many accusations of cup winners being already established strains w a name change, who really knows what lineage any plant is.
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Also can we please stop glorifying these breeā¦ I mean chuckerās and putting them on a pedestal? The notion that we should ask for permission to use something we bought and paid for like they are superior beings just makes me cringe. Letās face it, a vast majority of them are chuckers just like you and I. Sure some understand mendelian inheritance better than others and use that as a tool(DJ Short) while others breed from the heart or soul so to say(Bodhi) and both are fantastic at what they do and are highly respected. There are many roads to success. Simply put, there are good breeders and there are shit breeders and everywhere in between. The notion that massive populations need to be selected from or traits need to be mapped out using punnet squares is laughable and cringe worthy all at the same time. Thereās probably only a handful that do that and none of them have ever come online to prove it. As an aspiring breeder this annoys me, straight up. āyouāre a chucker, no youāre a chucker!ā
Letās look at the dictionary definition of the word breed when used as a verb.
āYouāre a chucker, no youāre a chucker!ā 
By definition if you intentionally create seeds youāre a breeder. Chucker and breeder should be used synonymously but too often chucker is used derogatorily to describe someone who doesnāt meet the mythical criteria that many have in their minds as to what goes on behind the scenes on the $300 pack of seeds they bought.
Iād be curious to know how many mechanics out there purchase a tool set and then email the manufacturer asking if they can build or rebuild an engine with it. How many artists out there email their supply manufacturers asking if they can paint on their canvas or use the easel to paint?
Zero. 
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Youāre preachin to the choir bro.
and yes while plants donāt have ethics humans do. We are stewards of this plant and it is heavily tied to human relations in many different ways. Commerce, sacrament, medicine, food etc. So I do think we should try to be respectful to eachother and get along as best as we can within reason. We are a community afterall. Of course not everyone is going to get along.
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ACTUALLY, Phylos is putting out pest/disease free clones w ethicsā¦ 
Too soon? 
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Ummmā¦i defā¦wont grow em outā¦and after I get a reply back from someone who I offered them toā¦if they don t want emā¦ill def trade someoneā¦i fully trust who I got them fromā¦there is also a pk of querkleā¦after reading this I couldnāt care less to grow theseā¦or any of there strainsā¦smh.
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Maybe lambs bread x dread bread?
Wow just had a vision of hair in my food.
Good pipe I just had.
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ok I am a bit confusedā¦long day so here goesā¦
Subcool and MizJill threw pollen around and made a few strains from the ones they liked and sold the seeds to whoever bought them then they divorce and divided assetsā¦MizJill was awarded some strains - Trainwreck is one of them. Subcool changed the name of his to Qrazytrain then enter in Homegrown Natural Wonders (MizJil?) that crossed the original Trainwreck to several strains and named them after the Dr. Who series on BBCā¦somewhere in all this a friend of JCF got an F1 pack and did a pollen chuck so he/she would have more to find a personal keeper in the genetics then shared some of the F2 seeds to JCF who wants to do a pollen chuck and distribute the F3ās to the communityā¦as a courtesy, they were both contacted - Subcool says his were lost in a fireā¦MizJill says no F2ās were ever made and would appreciate not to make F2ās of her genetics as she wants to make money too (who doesnāt?) blaming Subcool for being shady probably thinking he F2āed the strain (perhaps he did?) and she plans on making more F1ās and working to get rid of the TGA nameā¦
If all that is correct, then we should be good to go on the F3āsā¦
- TGA is/will be no more
- Others are using the strain to pollen chuck making ānewā strains
- F2ās have already been made privately by who knows how many
- Our community is looking at receiving F3ās which are 2 generations away from MizJilās āselectā f1ās
Probably more reasons thatās not coming to mind at the moment or have already been statedā¦
Who is to stop someone from obtaining Bloodwreck and Apollo13 to recreate their own version or similar Trainwreck ?? No one
Who bred the original strains? TGA did Bloodwreck using Trainwreck and Trinityā¦ nothing like elusiveness.
Apollo13 is all BrothersGrimm - do they get credit and royalties for having a hand? not from what I have seen though I donāt get out in the cannabis community much to really know these thingsā¦
F1ās are one thingā¦least Bodhi gave some direction to work the strain; ~Gu wants people to work his crosses, many are pollen chucking different strains and renaming them to avoid drama like this though we are talking about possible F3ās on ābreedersā that split and are dissolving the nameā¦
Where do we draw the line in our preservation efforts?
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drawing the line can be very complicated in this one because if it is already at the f2 and going into the f3 it could be very different from the f1 making the name irrelevant. other then that I think I will stay out of it
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trademark status is possible for namesā¦ 
(Gorilla-fucking-Glue)
ā¦at this point considering the drama & the people in question, my 2 cents is OverGrow, make seeds, and come what may, in this specific case, but I defer 100% to the OG community & ultimately our elusive lemonhead. 
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This is where my mind is at though the name is relevant to look at the backgroundā¦most want this info:
flowering days, squat/bushy or elongated/sparse, good to train or finicky etc
Guidelines so to speak and we select on suchā¦donāt want to put a sativa such as Zamdelica in a microgrow or a indica dominant such as Lucky Charms in a huge cabinet ā¦ I love to grow strains that share the same ancestry if I can like the Luckyās in this thread and see the differences - the Luckyās are the biggest variation though not much with others like Super Silver Haze and Super Lemon Haze etc
^^This^^
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This is an interesting scenario. Iāve already stated my opinions on permissions and respect but I think we need to think of it in this perspectiveā¦
If we as a community are to honor Bodhiās wishes for these projects as to the rough guidelines he wrote out then does that mean we should give the other breeders the same respect and not Fgen their strains against their wishes or do we respect each individual breeders unique set of wishes? Or do we come up with our own rule set?
I know I havenāt taken part yet but I have given out seeds and I plan to F2 my Dream Beaver pack this winter.
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ya I went a bit over zealous for sure I would also want all that info.
this a good question if you hold your self to a standard with one breeder why not all of the breeders. personality and how a breeder interacts with you might come in to play but then makes you look like you are picking favorites. I will put the whole mzjill and time wreck question in a bit of a different way.
I have Ziploite Oaxacan was looking at doing a reproduction in about 18 months would give the seeds away but about two months ago Bodhi said he might re-release it if it goes well or something to that effect. what would you recommend me doing since the breeder is different?
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Each and every recreation will probably need to be addressed individually. This situation with the Timewreck is a little unique since MzJill has already been fighting against subcool for recognition of her work. If we take her at her word, and Iāve no reason not to, it seems to me sheās legitimately trying to get a foot up.
I voted that genetics are public domain, and I still stand by that statement without prejudice, but this is one time where we should probably refrain for the same reasons we didnāt f2 Baudelaires work. Our actions could be actively antagonistic to her success.
The last thing we want to do is alienate people whoāve already cut their teeth putting in work for the Cannabis community.
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As for the Zipolite Oaxacan; would you be affecting his ability to do business by reproducing them? I highly doubt it. And Bodhi has so many strains under his belt itās unwise to hold your breath that any specific variety will be back.
In this circumstance, I would say thereās no moral issues with reproducing the Zipolite Oaxacan.
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So Iāll go you one a little better. Suppose the breeder put in the work to make the line IBL. Thatās a ton. I could respect that and stay off it. But if itās not itās just a pheno hunt and the breeder just chucked pollen. Iād f3 it.
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So I struggle to get my head around all this stuff because Iām from a prohibition country so itās not legal anyway so weāre not worried about proprietary problems as most people who get seeds here do it by accident, however.
I understand it could āruin their chances of successā but we arenāt that big of a community and we do not supply every single person in the world with cannabis seeds. Then somebody said about how if theyāre F2ās doing a run would make them F3ās so itād be distant from the original strain anyway so itās not really their work or her work itās @Jamescoldflame ās.
Theyāre not getting sold on theyāre being shared and the only reason anyone is against sharing is because by giving stuff away for free thereās no need for a currency to be shared so nobody gets rich off the beans. Boo who this MzJill only takes offence by doing a run because she doesnāt get paid for it.
IMHO and like I voted when you buy somebodies work thatās youra if you didnāt want it public then you shouldnt be in the seed business distributing what you want people to not use? You donāt buy a house then go ask permission from the previous owner to put it up on the market do you. And argument thing over Bodhi giving permission first regardless of whether he did or did not shouldnāt of mattered if strains are dead in the water and thereās a way to revive if you truly love that strain that youāve made bank out of why would you not want other people to continue making a name for you by sharing your diluted strains so surely there would be more attraction to purchase the new strains from her or bodhi for that matter.
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I was excited when i thought I was gonna run timewreck for a seed runā¦to be honestā¦even tho sub didnāt get back I was going to do it anywaysā¦but the mzjill , and her "We don t even know if itās timewreck "ā¦āI donāt want some guy i dont know working my strainā. Clearly I need to stay away fromā¦making f3s is not working them unless I was hunting a pheno to releaseā¦as timewreck. Or name switch, sooo if I buy a pk of seedsā¦grow em, select, breed, ā¦im working the seller strain?, if this is the case 90% of the community has been working other peopleās strainsā¦why do we buy regular seedsā:thinking:
. And if we breed those regs for generationsā¦its still the sellers gear. I donāt wanna run anyone stuff who thinks in this wayā¦thats just ignorantly thought and saidā¦ and just think I was looking at getting some Brian berry from jillā¦not anymore
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If it were Jillybean or Agent Orange thereād be no question IMO to leave it alone.
Am I wrong in understanding that Timewreck is apparently not a creation of TGA/Sub/Jill-- it contains parents of theirs. Dioxide made it & he left TGA? So then 2 different parties had it as a āF1ā and did different things from there on.
TGA has no IBLs afaik.
- Itās time we vote
- We should wait for more input
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I donāt want the community to stop discussing this topic, because itās important for all of us to figure out a method for this type of thing, even if itās messy.
However, I would also like to update the situation in regards to the specific seeds in question.
JCF no longer wishes to run any of TGAās genetics, so Iāve traded him 4 strains for his Timewreck and Querkle seeds. In the future, probably next year, Iāll run both, determine what they actually are and work the lines through a few generations so that they are uniquely stamped with my touch. At that point there is no longer any controversy over whose work is being used. Then, if theyāre worthy of being distributed, Iāll do a seed run and offer them for free to OG. By then weāll know if anyone else, mizjill, is going to release the Timewreck strain herself. I hope this meets with everyoneās approval.
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Sounds like a good plan @Sebring 
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