postulation - could a company such as sensi seeds for example:)( or another company) purposefully use a homozygous recessive parent to produce so called f1 seeds ?(along with a homozygous dominant parent)
with the result being that the seeds would be dominant for a trait or traits during the grow and if you breed with them then you will almost definitely end up with a majority of the offspring showing the dominant recessive ?
In my mind , the question is not so much - would sensi(or any other seed making outfit) . Itâs purely would they need to go to that length?
Now im hoping that a majority of people out there are all for the evolution of the plant. but what people say and what they do behind closed doors is different. needless to say that anyone dealing in feminised seeds exclusively or breeding is out of this conversation topic.
ive said enough to get the topic started.
What Iâm talking about here is related to the situation with seeds. A seed company will readily give you feminised seeds made with its best genetics as they know itâs hard to use this material for seeds. Theyâre unlikely to do the same with regular seeds. Some will most donât
Cheers
If you want to ârip offâ sensi with fems, good luck ^^
I mean, feminize your line and its locked lol
? ? im not talking about fems here .
isnât there some degredation as you move into the s2/s3 range?
maybe if you bred it to to end, any further breeder would be with very poor results.
or, like i hear about gg4, lot of herms in the offspringâŚapparently worth wading through.
Howdy @jonathan77, sure I think that is something possible but I donât think itâs being done purposefully. Perhaps being done on âaccidentâ meaning not progeny testing and fully analyzing population fitness of their work (Sensi or similar companies), but I donât think they are in the business of purposefully sabotaging their wares in such fashion. I donât think any seedmakers or breeders in the current retail scene are purposefully doing that.
When Nevil sold to Ben, he made some good stuff and Ben is a huge advocate for ganja. He even started a hash museum of sorts, has a fairly recent book titled Weed of Wonder that he co-authored with some others. He seems pretty genuine, in my opinion. Back in the day Nevil mentioned that he wanted to help Ben clean up some of the work and the inherent selections of which Ben declined Nevils help, but it doesnât seem to me that he is at all the type to sabotage his work purposefully in such a nefarious and deceitful way. I think he has more integrity for himself than that, even if his selections and work was different than Nevils. I heard his kids took over the brand and I think itâs assumed that the selections and work deteriorated even more, but thatâs relative I think because they still have some good stuff available because the source origin material has great genetics within and I think a lot of the criticism comes from things and comments being repeated more than they are actually coming from first hand experience.
Perhaps it will take more work to find the goods these days compared to when Nevil was working the lines but I think itâs normal for lines and varieties to change as time and space continue if complex breeding strategies and emphasis on testing progeny and producing a specific end goal isnât maintained. So to say, Bens kids or whoever may be running things now might not have the same drive and determination as Nevil or Ben did, but Nevil also was fortunate to be working those antiquated lines closer to their origin than the Sensi camp is able to in this modern day and age nearly 50 years later. The lines had just started to go indoors when Nevil received them, some may have never been indoors yet. However since, they have been âindooricaâizedâ for however many subsequent generations now, likely without adequate breeding strategies, techniques, redundancy, and such.
All to say, I think it could be possible that some stuff is made in a less than ideal fashion in the ways you mention, but I donât think itâs done purposefully at all. It would be out or negligence at best. This is my personal opinion. Many blessings and much love
Ben gave the lead to Barney, heâs now CEO of Sensi ^^ I will pay heavy to just see the day of the announce to his sons 
Ive never heard someone doing what youre describing specifically. But it would make sense on paper. I just donât think many breeders are really focused on real selections/breeding traits. Ive seen behind the curtain on big white label seed grow in central cali. And it was just 10k plant OPs with basically no selections.
In my experience talking to a buncha folks, it seems like the skeezy move from shady breeders is veering more towards patented genetics(Phylos is a great example of scumbag insane seed ârulesâ if you buy them). That in combo with polyploids where you canât clone or seed them out. Seems like its getting pretty common for garbage corporate grows to get sold on bulk auto-fems too. Anything for people to not be able to hold clones/make more seeds it seems.
I thought these thoughts 25 years ago and Iâm sure many others after a good smoke session. If I had made my own magical strain I would probably like to protect it the same way you say due to thieves in the game but seeing all these growers making their own seed and growing them out puts the theory out of the question.
Howdy @Fuel, thatâs good information, thanks for sharing. Iâve heard a lot talk bad about Barneyâs, but Iâve personally had great experience with the two varieties Iâve tried from their offerings. Specifically a fairly recent Dr. Grinspoon feminized offering and a different feminized offering named Strawberry Lemonade. They were and are both excellent and perform as described. Itâs pretty ironic for me to say that considering what Iâll elaborate more on further down my comment directed at @ironlungs.
I think Barneyâs Farm solid connections and the financial resources, as well as the desire to remain profitable, that they source quality genetics and put out decent to top shelf stuff. Although I havenât tried everything from them. The Strawberry Lemonade had such an exquisite range of aromas and tastes on the plants I tried, absolutely delightful. Some very loud and some very unique. One in particular went purple almost black, which I think may have been a recessive from possibly some European strawberry genetics that went into the makeup. Iâm not sure what the actual genetics are in that variety but read a comment on Icmag where someone mentioned itâs Lemon OG x Swiss Strawberry, erdbeerli perhaps? Either way, point being, Barneyâs seems to know how to select and utilize popular quality genetics even if their breeding strategies and techniques are less complex and more centered around first generation hybrids and feminization of elites. Even if they arenât true masters of the craft putting out supremely original stuff. Iâm pretty sure I read the Dr. Grinspoon came from when they worked with Reeferman who was a pretty solid collector of quality genetics in his own right, so they seem to source and collaborate more than they create from scratch. From what I gather, a lot of the Amsterdam mainstay popular seed companies sort of share genetics and do business together with a lot of the âfamousâ work finding itâs way into many different seed makers and seed shops catalogs. Amnesia Haze for example. As always, massive respect to Nevil and those who he sourced his genetics from because they really seem to the the backbone of so much available today.
@ironlungs, that sounds like some CRISPR type deal. A Monsanto patented genetics approach. I get what youâre saying, because so easily and so often things get hacked and subsequently watered down in this seedy seed business. I think the best strategy for mitigating that is through shared knowledge and understanding. By that I mean, educating the consumer base about why population fitness and original work merits the worthiness compared to hack jobs that are basically using the name of something popular and desirable when the fundamental work and selections behind it isnât the same.
Iâve been using the following example lately to describe that, the recent BOGBubble Co-Op reproduction here on OG. Sure itâs a reproduction from genuine BOGBubble seeds stocks, but done in an entirely different fashion than when BOG was continuing his work. The Co-Op offering was open pollinated from a small seed population with no selections whereas BOGâs genuine originals were always selected artistically, mindfully, and specifically by him for desired traits and attributes. So while they carry the same name and come from similar seed stocks and gene pools, their inherent population fitness are totally different. Theyâre flat out different even if they have the same name. Itâs one of the reasons I removed myself from that signup list because I already have some originals which I prefer, and even more there are still BOG made originals for sale retail at SHN. For those who canât afford or otherwise canât get the originals it makes sense to get in on the Co-Op offering of BOGBubble, but theyâre definitely not the same as actual BOG made originals which are still very much available. But so often consumers and collectors are enticed by a name that conveys a nostalgic quality and desirability even when the inherent population fitness is different.
Even if one puts out a quality line, even if the work is great, without that same artistry and mindful selections theyâre inherently different. Without the same approach to the breeding strategy which made up the originals, things can quickly become watered down and not accurately reflect said originals. Sadly, most retail consumers donât seem to place much weight on those things, but I think itâs important. Itâs why I support the originals whenever possible. Itâs why when I found an all time favorite Blueberry plant that was kept for decades out of feminized Blueberry work from Dutch Passion, where many other absolutely mouth watering blueberry keepers of all types (literal ancestral throwbacks from Highland Oaxacan Gold to Purple Thai and more) were found in progeny of that same plant, I still chose to seek out originals from DJ Short when looking to acquire more generic stocks rather than focus on finding more through Dutch Passion because DJ Short is the source origin for the Dutch Passion Blueberry work. Sure some goods may be found in knockoffs and reproductions but if the originals are where the desirability stemmed from, thatâs what Iâll always seek out when given the opportunity. Itâs a mix of preference, respect, morality, and the fact that the originators are the originators for a reason. So if you make something great, Iâm the type that would forever seek out your specific work whenever possible even if there were some reproductions available because they are most certainly different. Especially if using the same parents because that holds a special time in space which can not as easily be recreated by others. When something is reproduced, hacked, or remade it may be considerably different or it may be only slightly different, it may even be better, but itâs still different. Only when someone elseâs work actually improves or creates something new from anotherâs original work do I deem it worth having. If we donât support the originals and those who create the basis for which other great work derives from, what are we actually doing is what Iâm thinking and wondering.
If there isnât motivation for seedmakers and breeders to put out their best work because others are quick to hack and knock them off, thatâs terrible for the scene in my opinion. But hey, people love to ride coattails and skate by on the laurels of others, even if itâs just in the name alone. Education is the key.
Itâs like the white labels and knock off companies selling famous names because they know thatâs what many people want to buy, a name. Theyâre selling the name more than theyâre selling the reliability of traits and expressions that will be found in the seeds. It really is a seedy seed business at times. Itâs so unfortunate. I donât blame it on the customers because when thatâs happening I think they truly believe the name they are buying will correspond with the traits they are seeking, but the reality is theyâre often being mislead and taken advantage of.
Some of the best seedmakers and breeders have fallen to the wayside because of these things.
Whatâs interesting to me is like the story of Sour Diesel, for example, how itâs said Weasel didnât even want seeds to be found in the flowers that were being some because without others having access to those genetics and traits it provided him with exclusively. Iâm not sure how truthful or accurate that is, but for the same of a hypothetical I think itâs helpful for context. My thought is different, I think it would be great for more and more to have access to the great stuff because thatâs what helps bring more awareness to said greatness, effectively creating a larger pool of individuals who find something desirable. But without the knowledge and understanding to support the originals and originators, things can become less ideal in many ways. For example, with Sour Diesel becoming so popular by seeds from Weasels work getting out there and creating new plants, to me if thatâs something I found desirable Iâm the type that would specifically seem out Weasels stuff for it being the source origin. There is incredible value in the basis of work which things are created from, in my opinion. Just like I prefer BOGs originals that last I checked are still available on SHN compared the the Co-Op offering that carries the same name, because itâs just a name but the underlying work is the proof in the pudding. And those that have show out of stock on SHN occasionally have been restocked many times. Only a few varieties have remained out of stock at SHN from my observations over the years since BOGâs passing, notably his Blue Moon Rocks. All to say, I hope you donât get discouraged by releasing great work because I know many seek out originals, as I do, and I feel that trend will continue to grow as more and more retail customers are educated on why originals are important and how population fitness is a big part of a given seed stock. That genetics are much more than just the name they are sold, shared, or traded under. Many blessings and much love
If sensi or any other company for that matter breed their seeds further (locking the traits they want in each generation), you will end up with offerings that carry those traits, yes.
Fems or regs has nothing to do with it, same goal or destination, different methods.
CSI Humboldt does runs of his lines sometimes, but he wonât S1 the ones he get, which will make the seeds you get S2, but only cross them.
Degrading lines are selection based, the generational position (F1, F2, S1, S2 etc) has no bearing whether the line is better or worse.
If you picked poorly, you next generation will be poor, itâs that simple.
If you pick the best, you can go to S10 without degrading the line, but maybe youâll lack some other non grow related qualities (high, taste, etc) or vice versa, youâll have a lame plant with excellent smoke, itâs about balance and knowing what to pick and choose each generation.
Thereâs a book called The Cannabis Breeders Bible. It describes how to do exactly what youâre talking about. So itâs definitely possible that someone could breed seeds to have quality flowers in F1 but subsequent generations will not have the same results. I personally donât think Sensi offers anything like the original quality of years ago. So if they were breeding like that. The seeds would actually have to be decent quality in the first generation but they donât even have that going for them. So Iâm going to have to say no they just donât have anything good enough to even start isolating recessive genes with anymore.
Good reference⌠
You can get similar results with an f1 cross on two unrelated (and dissimilar) lines. The f1s will be fairly uniform (all of the dominate traits present) but the party really âgets startedâ with the f2s and later generations as the recessives come out and present.
Cheers
G
its not so much my âthoughtsâ . its basically a direct reference to start a conversation about genetics and whats possible . what big companies can do to the genetics of the plant and the state of the industry given that most options for breeding are effectively illegal for the common man. when you add it all up and take it all in - you would be extremely foolish to not question the source of the genetics you are using and what possible motivations these banal assholes may have. look towards other sectors of horticulture and what passes as progress is essentially very weak genetics that cannot be worked with .
yeah . thats how it goes. apparently. its the perfect camouflage for someone to inroduce a specific recessive into seeds if they had a motive ?
im not saying it happens all the time , or anything like that . but its certainly possible and feasible that in some commercial stiuations that it may happen
few thoughts
- people could also offer s1 seeds instead of f1 . you would not know any difference âŚother than that the s1 is not useful for breeding . also just as bad you could be buying f2s or the breeder could use a feminised strain as a mother or father plant(s1).
- it would be extremely weird of a company to offer regular seeds (and then fuck them up on purpose)
- you can see the real motivation of scumhole companies to only deal in feminised seeds. its a money maker , not only is demand higher, but the requirements for production is simpler and cheaper.
what im meaning is that the making of feminised seeds has zero value from a evolution point of view . whatever is not evolving is not still , its devolving. think hplv virus - how did it gain a foothold ? think âŚweak plants feminised forever and retarded genetic practices as outlined above.
yeah thatd make sense. if you are going breed retard plants then do it for real⌠as opposed to making good plants with hidden hidden retard qualities . The end goal in this case just to sell seeds and cashgrab.