It seems impossible on any cannabis forum to avoid sniping and attacks upon people and companies involved in the seed biz. Any one of us could pick a name and instantly get bombarded with name calling, lynchings and the like, but also defenders and fans of the same person. As an old guy lifetime chronic and a noobish grower, I’ve spent way too much time reading these sites and forums LOL.
In my neck of the world, there are no elite clones available to the general public, so I guess I’ll ask about growing and pollen chucking from purchased seeds. I am going to use actual companies names, but in a fictional sense. I don’t sell nuthin personally but like to buy regular seeds and make crosses (pollen chucking) for myself, just like I buy heirloom vegetable seeds ONCE.
OK Spanish grower buys TGA Subcools Vortex, and fertlizes his Greenhouse seeds Super Lemon Haze. The F1 is great and has a variety of phenotypes so he decides to sell these seeds he created and calls them Super Lemon Vortex. Is this enough to satisfy critics, in that he gave the names from each parent? I think so, without any credit given to either greenhouse or Tga.
Now if the same dude decided to make a Vortex with another Vortex from same package and sells his resultant seeds as Vortex. Is this guy now a rip-off artist?
What difference is there when it comes to clone only situations? Are guys, like say, Greenpoint called out as snakes only, after the dude who gave/sold/gifted the clone, gets butthurt by the cash Greenpoint made off F1’s?
IMO if you trusted someone you shouldn’t have, isn’t it your own fault for not getting a written contract, and hence civil legal grounds to back up your accusations?
If I had a friend who went against my words (not contract) well he is an ex-friend and I may call him out, only to my friends. I wouldn’t get on the net and slam him, which some random idiot may act on, and tell the whole world that he;s a big fat thief and actually spread libelous slander?
I think the people (original clonegivers) who do this are just as corrupt a person as the jerkwad they gave it to, and they just display their own stupidity as well with legions of sheep on each side.
This isn’t intended to call anyone out by me,( I don’t lie to my friends and don’t sell shit) But nowhere have I seen or heard any Chemdog guy send a cheque to the Grateful Dead for creating the garden and the environment for which those seeds ( faces of EVE) were born to the rest of the world. BUT they keep mentioning the NAME! The Deadheads aren’t complaining either. LOL TRADEMARK IT! Or keep it to yourself and STFU. IMO Go sharks go.
It is hard to call for morale when we are 99% over the edge of the law. But there should be some…
I’m more concerned with incoming big pharma businesses (which will come with legalization) and I sympathize with The Open Cannabis Project.
The Open Cannabis Project has a simple mission: to protect the richness and diversity of cannabis. Decades of careful stewardship and breeding have made cannabis into one of the most varied, interesting and powerful plants in the world. The growing wave of legalization may have the unintended consequence of narrowing and restricting this diversity. The Open Cannabis Project is a community-led organization that is building an archival record of all existing cannabis varieties, in order to ensure that they remain available, and in the public domain, forever.
Canna:
I’m having that problem with a breeder I know and work with, we get high end seeds like Aficionado send them to him and he does our own F1’s or as far as F3. Anyways, there is some serious shit talking about this practice. They do end up on various auction sites.
If you ask me unless you have an agreement like with elite clones like Sour Dub, like I’m not allowed to pass it around I am however free to S1, or breed with it.
I recently ran into a similar scenario that you listed I did a GSC x Fire OG cross. Passed out a bunch of seeds BUT, its already done, am I a hack?.. I dont think so. I cant even use the same name “Firecookies”.
If anything look at the major cloners in Cali I have never heard of them sending any royalties to breeders, like your chemdog 4… Who really gets the credit for that one?. To be fair they do contract breeders for their own cultivars… some of them do anyways.
There are only a few rules if you ask me.
-Dont pass a clone that you were not supposed to pass.
-S1’s are not the same as the clone. I think its OK to copy it this way.
Okay, I have to weigh in here, as far as I’m concerned I concur with Cannasaurusrex if your going to get so upset about something like this then odds are YOU should have copyrighted or just kept it to yourself. Either way Live & Learn is my motto and I believe in the Live Simply so that others may Simply Live Lifestyle I’ve got my 4 to Max 5 plant Secret Garden So I May be a self sustainable & self reliable Medical Marijuana Patient. There’s some pretty amazing Medical Marijuana being produced these days & made readily available online however for someone on pension or disability on a VERY FIXED INCOME, some or rather MOST of said medication is not affordable therefore unattainable. UNLESS well u know. For me it’s as simple as what you give out both Good & Bad will come back to you. I’ve been told that by my Mom & Dad since I was little & By George turns out, “it’s TRUE” 
Pardon my ignorance, but what S1 stands for? 1st gen of seeds? I suppose you have female clone.
I’d also add one rule: when breeding genetics of others, disclose the cross.
S1 refers to the first batch of seeds from a female mother who was forced to produce pollen (chemically or stressed hermaphrditism) and fertilized by itself (or its clone) It is how feminized seeds are made. F1 refers to the seeds produced when a female is fertilized by a natural male plant which came from a seperate genepool. the number 1 refers to the originally bred batch of seeds Most seeds available these days are F1 or S1 (anyone can get lucky) so IMO buying f1 seeds for big money is marketing to noobs from pollen chuckers IMO. S1 are easily produced and sold and aren’t as shameful to sell IMO as they are the closest seeds you can easily produce that are closest to the parent Mom, but are little use for breeding or anything except growing and smoking. Good actual breeders work IMO are f3, f4, f5, etc. Producing good regular seeds and stabilizing the results are what REAL breeders do. IMO, Have I said IMO enough? LOL any expert please feel free to correct the f and s part of my answer. Correcting the IMO part will just get ugly on here Cheers! and Merry Christmas (or whatever you celibrate) to all!
S1 is called Selfed. No Parents other than its “Self”.
P1 (Parent 1) x P2 (Parent 2) = F1 (Filial Generation 1) Later generations are F2, if taken from F1… And so forth to simplify.
For example Aficionado Magnum Opus is 11th Gen. Now thats breeding
Sounds like a dependable one.
Top shelf genes. They have won at least a dozen awards in competition. They have no problem selling those seeds for 600 USD for 10 seeds.
Now when you start doing S1’s of that… Or doing hybrids from that stabilized line. Well…
It’s very tough for people to grow, breed and smoke all day. The best way to find out if someone is suspect is to send him some money.
Everyone walks to the mailbox for a check. A hack just emails excuses on where the beans are. Any time I got beat I moved on and never said a word.
Don’t no one get any ideas that I’m a free lunch. If you beat me your good at it lol. 
To have real F1s you need two stable lines to cross. That doesn’t really exist so much in the cannabis field because the of the practical limits on plant numbers needed to do the grunt work of building stable lines. Virtually all the named drug cannabis varieties are unstable polyhybrids, incapable of producing F1s. As close to true breeding lines as you are likely to see are old, local, open-pollinated farmers’ cultivars, which hardly exist anymore because of the unfortunate global pollution of Dutch polyhybrid genetics into those lines.
EthicalGrower, you are absolutely right about the need of stabilized parental line that when crossed result in F1 hybrid which has the advantage of genetically dominant properties and “hybrid vigour”.
What are you describing is The F1 Hybrid as terminus technicus.
What should be said is that in more general terms, F’s (which means filial) F1, F2 is just nomenclature. The number describes relativity to its parents (not some absolute value). So basically any cross could be named F1 and when the result pollinates itself (F1 male x F1 female) produced seeds will be F2. We are using it just to note the generation, not to associate it with any rating or quality value.
As opposed to what are you describing - you are adding subjective valuation to equation (for this you must define what is stable for you - and it can be stable only with traits you personally are looking for, others could be looking for different traits).
At least that is how I understand it… (IMHO)
For example when I buy any seeds and grow them and let them pollinate self to produce new seed generation, I think it is OK to call seeds created this way F2 just to mark their relation to original seeds, without knowing what exactly were parents of those F1 (and if they were true breeding or not).
Um yeah… what you said I was looking at that too… Had me going WTF…?
More or less directed at EG:
F1 does NOT indicate if the progeny traits are heterozygous, homozygous or stable… Its just a term to indicate filial generation.
Again P1 + P2 = F1
F1 + F1 = F2 so its more likely that this will bring out the trait we desire the higher the fillial generation the more stable the traits are.
Im no master breeder, still learning…
There is a lot of good info here and maybe we could move this topic to Breeder’s Lab.
Is there any reason @Cannasaurusrex to keep it in Shark’s Tank?
Hey Hydropower yes that would be cool, I’m not too pc tech savvy is there an easy way to do it. You can switch it over at you’re end if possible, I’m into anything to make the info easier for everyone to have access. Let me know, if I have to do it, otherwise go for it!
I strongly agree(if I got your point right ). If I buy some seeds available on the market and make cross between 2 strains I am definitely not a thief. Maybe I avoided expensive and maybe dangerous trip to Pamir for example or Afghanistan and avoided beginning my work from… the very beginning :D(I´am not that silly to think that all seed banks are “strain hunters” - they steel from each other on regular bases). But I´ve put some effort and work to the whole process. Choosing that specific strains for crossing is based on long personal experience - thus creating new mix according to my demands. I think with S1 from plant selected from bought seeds is morally debatable, but at least you´ve done the whole process yourself. I think S1 from your own cross regardless of the genetic source is without question your creation and wheeners can go fuck themselves.They shouldn´t have to make it available on the free market than.Genetic code should not be patented for many reasons(mainly for it´s nature - it´s just coding*) and this is one of them.
Any spiky accusations in this case = bullshit.
Another thing is when I buy clones, make motherplant and sell it further proclaiming it´s my motherplant. Sure thing the part of proclaiming it´s my is immoral, but the other part about doing business is debatable.
As whole business with marihuana is illegal in most countries you have no guarantee that some “customer” will not do this. Sell that clone or not to sell that clone? That is The Question! 
The answer is: If I ever found my “Holy Grail”, my “Flagship”, the strain that simply outclasses others in every aspect I would keep it to myself or go for regular seed production option. You can still sell clones of other above standard strains you surely have during the process if you got that far(really).
So generally I agree most of the wheenies and flamers are morally at the same level as the prick who stole their clone because most of them do it for profit(buy some regular seeds - try one round indoor - select best for mother) and not for themselves. And hunting profits calls for war and unhealthy level of competition(I am not a comunist In legal business there are surely methods to prevent this). Never heard complains from the real breeders that make crosses and real selection. Because they know it´s much easier to say even to a friend: This one is not for sale or sharing!. Much easier than trying to put energy to something that cannot be achieved under the legal circumstances.
…* because patents in science and technology prevents anyone capable to make further progress in such way from which all of us can benefit.But it seems that humanity puts most effort to endless bickering.
High again fellow Connoisseur, 1st off, thanx for clearing that S1 I’d guessed but U never know till U know. lol.
It seems to me that U truly Do know your way around the Cannabis Culture & Growing & Creating your own Strains I Honestly am Humbled by this to be sure Cannasaurusrex, Oh & which seed bank in Canada do you know of that sells the Best seeds. I like what 420kingston have and Crop King & I have a long standing history as I purchased my 1st beans from them (White Widow) & grew them under a 200 watt CFL in a 1 & a half by 1 & a half ft. Cabinet. & any beans I purchased from them since have been legit and very potent. I’m sitting on 5 Purple Kush & 5 Sour Diesel Fems at the moment & I’ve decided to do 2 of each in 3&1/2 Gal.Pots & I’ll be sure to use the Trellis again as well. I can no longer sit by and wait without
ANYTHING Growing it’s got me all mixed up in my game here. Thank Heavens for my Partner Deb. whom purchased my Cabinet (cabinetgrow.com) I have the Yielder Max & am saving to buy the Earth Cab Pro someday. 
Oh Yeah I’d say U covered the In My Opinion abbreviation quite nicely, Well Done. lol.
: 
Sincerely: Don D.
Wish I was a bit closer to Kingston420, I wanna bond with their big great dane. They have a good selection and I really like the storefront idea, beats the hell outta waiting for Canada post to deliver!! A trip to the thousand islands is in the near future for sure.
OOps forgot to mention, I started buying beans from GTA seedbank when they had a store in North Scarborough, I still mail order them occasionally. I have used hempdepot, attitude, cannazon, and more frequently thegreenpool for my online purchasing. Can honestly say that none of these banks have ever screwed me, everything is what is stated so far. I used to get from Highgrade seeds in toronto, but that place went sideways just after I purchased. Nowadays it is no longer highgrade running things or breeding there…also tried one in BC Woodhorse seeds cause he had UBC hydro and mota’s herijuana, he was slow but delivered although no UBC in stock at the time. Waiting for a couple other seedbanks to get their shit together ( notably Firestax and Charles scott aka reeferman) but they are spotty and seem very unreliable. Don’t buy much anymore as I have built quite the genetic library and now concentrate my efforts on breeding and selection. It takes me about a year and a half to test and grow f1"s to my satisfaction. I have a favourite cross which I created from Highgrades cluaterbomb crossed with a female strawberry kush (from a local ‘hack’ pollen chucker) which I then crossed to a querkle male. Its sap is red (probably from the querkle) and is a small bushy sweetie that turns black in week 9 and really hits the spot. Munchie inducing, hard hitting, and tastes fruity and fuelly. Its the only one of my many crosses that I have kept working on, and the work pays off. I’m a bit too picky but thats the way I am. I am trying to get her a little sweeter without losing the qualities she already has. Whats another couple of years anyway, right? Cheers