Three types of hydro in a small tent on one airpump?

Indoor Growing Hydroponics
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No difference in EC between whats going into and coming out of the NFT tote. But this morning the rez was at 5.3 and the NFT tote was putting out water at 5.1. Last night the rez was at 5.8, so thats a drop of .5 in the rez in about 8 hours.

Ive done what I thought was a decent rince/flush with tap water on each of the last several rez changes and a much longer one this last time, so I dont think its built up salts.

I think it has to be something wrong going on in the roots or that tote just doesnt like the EC in the same range the other two like. I am thinking its more likely there is an issue with the roots.

So far, I had the least issues with PH changes when the EC was up around 1.2-1.3. Im going to see how this does over the next 12 hours or so then decide whether to lower the EC some more or raise it back up to 1.2 and just shrug my shoulders.

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If I had to guess, I would say some roots are dying and decomposing. This would cause the pH rise you are seeing. It may or may not be related to the copper.

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What’s happening is the plants used up their nutes. Hydro nutes has 2 forms of nutes avil for plants. One is a positive in the other negative. When one ion is used it’s replaced with the opposite. So now that your nutes are running low it’s using up the positive charged ions and raising your pH. I might have that mixed up along the line but the general idea is solid. Check out Everest on youtube he explains it a lot better.

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Hey Larry, I’m curious do you use the hydroguard in your other systems?

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Unfortunately, I think you have hit the nail on the head. This is the only thing that really makes sense.

Plus, I just found some more nasty looking mold/fungus in the Membrane tote.

I have been worried about my roots almost from the start. They were slow growing after the neem debacle but never have looked really good. However, I think the main problem is how far I forced the roots to travel to get to the water in all the totes, but especially in the NFT and Membrane totes. Add in that a lot of the root volume in those two totes is still up in the air and not staying wet. Those dry roots are all turning brown and black and the brown is spreading into the wet areas.

I dont know if the copper made things worse or not. The roots had all these issues before I did the copper test, so it could just be a coincidence on the timing. I doubt if it helped though.

I raised the EC, but the rate of PH drop in the NFT tote just keeps getting worse, so its NOT an EC issue. It has to be the roots dying or at least getting worse - and is escalating rapidly.

Thats something I havent heard before. I’ll have to check that out, but I warn you I may not watch all of the video. I have a low tolerance for crappy videos that waste a lot of time on BS and things that dont have anything to do with the specific topic. “Welcome to my grow room where you can see my cat wandering around in the background. Her name is…and on and on…”

I actually hate "educational’ videos for the most part. I much prefer a written presentation with some pics, drawings, charts, if needed. I can scan a document very rapidly for the essential things I need and quickly go back to a point to reference something I missed. You cant do that with a video. You have to sit through the whole boring mess and then it takes forever so go back a search for that one tid bit of actual data they gave you 13 minutes ago…

Ok, sorry about that rant. Hope that didnt come across the wrong way!! I really do want to thank you for the help and the tip. I will at least give the video a chance :slight_smile:

This is the first time Ive ever used it - and my first ever hydro grow :slight_smile: If you meant are all three totes using hydro guard, then yes. All three totes are running off the same rez, so all three get the same treatment at all times.

The question now is what to do. I just gave the rez and extra boost of Hydro Guard, but I doubt that will make a huge difference.

If it doesnt, then I have to decide whether to just let it go and hope the plants last long enough to harvest or maybe try a bleach treatment or?

Im leaning towards letting it go and hoping for the best. I think Im close to harvest - maybe a week or two if I harvest a little early - which Im wanting to do anyway. Maybe I could just harvest that tote and let the other two run longer.

Im not liking the option of treating with bleach. I know lots of people swear by running “clean rez” with bleach, but Ive read a couple of papers that state the the bleach does pretty much nothing to kill established pathogens if its at safe concentrations. Once you get it strong enough to kill the bad crap, it also seriously damages the plant itself. I can believe that maybe it works to keep a clean rez clean though as long as the bad shit isnt already out of control - which I think mine is.

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Here’s the link https://youtu.be/Ayk_t62q98s
Edit: my bad wrong one here it is https://youtu.be/VW6R_DZAwNc

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Speaking of Hydro Guard, I just got a hot tip on another forum about a different brand that is waaaaaaaaaaay more concentrated and works out to be much cheaper than Hydro Guard.

Southern Ag Garden Friendly Fungicide

They both have the sam exact fungicide, but Hydro Guard has a concentration of 0.038% by volume and 1x10^4 colony forming units per ml

Souther Ag has a concentration of 98.56% or roughly 2500 times as concentrated. It has 1 x10^10 colony forming units, so about 1 million more :smiley:

Just ordered some. In the mean time, Im going to dump the rest of my Hydro Guard in the rez and see…

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I’ve watched Everest’s videos. His video are pretty good, short, and to the point. He doesn’t dig down into the intimate details but he does provide ideas on areas to look into.

As @Skiball was noting, the nitrogen in solution can be in two general forms being NO3- and NH4+, nitrate and ammonium respectively. If a plant uptakes ammonium, H+ is released into solution. If a plant uptakes nitrate, HCO3- is released into solution. Various factors in the system including microbes (which consume nitrogen) can effect the amount of overall ammonium as the nitrate can be converted to the ammonium form. As ammonium uptake increases, the PH drops as more H+ is released into solution (more acidic). Likewise, as nitrate uptake increases, the PH rises (more basic).

Here’s a better explanation than I can write (How the Ammonium-nitrate ratio affects your plants):

The electrical balance in the root cells must be maintained, so for each positively charged ion that is taken up, a positively charged ion is released into the soil and the same is true for negatively charged ions. This means that when the plant takes up ammonium (NH4+), it releases a proton (H+) to the soil solution. An increase of the proton concentration around the roots decreases the pH around the roots (more acidic).

Similarly, when the plant takes up Nitrate (NO3-) it releases bicarbonate (HCO3-), which increases the pH around the roots (more alkaline).

The effect of ammonium and nitrate uptake is especially important in soil-less media, where the roots can affect the pH of the medium more quickly because their volume is relatively large compared with the volume of the medium. To prevent the pH of the medium from changing too rapidly, an appropriate ammonium/nitrate ratio and substrate temperature are essential, according to the plants growth stage.

For this situation where the PH changes seem to occur very rapidly, I don’t know if this process works so quickly to cause such a large variation in a short period. Would love to know how fast the plant exchange is. I have also heard that certain microbes can cause what amounts to an instant conversion from nitrate to ammonium but I haven’t really read enough about that to understand what “instant” means in context.

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Nice find. Inexpensive. Claims 10 billion CFU per ML. Wow, that’s concentrated.

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I just have 2 of the 10 dollar eBay yellow ones and just buy a new one when one craps out on me which could be between 1 and 12 months

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Thats one of the reasons I think @ReikoX is correct about the root rot - plus I can see the roots dont look good.

The process has been speeding up the last few days, but I dumped the last of my Hydro Guard in the rez late last night and it has slowed down some, but it still dropping pretty fast. The GARDEN FRIENDLY FUNGICIDE will be ere tomorrow so I plan to give it and emergency dose and see if that helps. Even if it just slows things down a bit that will be a plus.

Im going to stick with my Amazon version of the same pen for now too. The first one they sent me had dead batteries. They sent me a new one, so now I have a backup. These both seem to need to be recalibrated about every other day.

I decided to order some PH6 buffer solution powder. Its cheap and will help get the meter reading closer to accurate in the zone it needs to be accurate in. I dont really need to know the PH out to 5 decimals and I dont care if its 6.45 or 6.35. I just need to know its reading close to accurate between about 5.5 and 6.5. A buffer solution of 6 will work a lot better than a 4 or a 7.

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Lovely Larry!!:heart_eyes:

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Thank you! I cant help thinking they would be doing much better if I hadn’t messed up my design for the NFT and Membrane totes.

Im pretty sure the hermie issue is due to this root thing.The roots have been an issue almost from day one. They started out (after the neem thing) growing very slowly at first and then drying out in places and dying. I think that led to the fungus I saw in the totes early on - which would have easily spread to all the totes because of the common rez.

Now Im wondering if the sudden down turn when I was doing the copper test was because the copper damaged the roots - or did it maybe kill off my HydroGuard bacteria?

Or - Im also now wondering of I got a dud bottle of Hydro Guard. The Hydro Guard was crystal clear in the bottle and looked just like pure water. Not even a hint of color.

This new stuff from Southern Ag is dark orangy brown, and very thick - almost a gel - with lots of obvious solids and semi solids in it. It makes a serious cloud when you add a few drops to the rez.

More importantly - it seems to be helping already! I put some in around 3PM today and the PH was 6.2. Tonight its 6.1 flickering to 6.2. Normally after 6 hours it would have dropped more like .2 at least. Thats the slowest drop in several days. The day before it was dropping .2 points every 3 hours, so this is a big improvement.

Also, it looks to me like at least some of the dark areas in the root zones are looking a little whiter than they did yesterday!! Unfortunately, I didnt take any pics of the roots in several days, so I will need to let it go longer to be sure.

Im encouraged so far.

Im also very happy with the 6.0 buffer solution that came today. It mixed up just fine and read 5.99 on my expensive PH meter - which Im sending back tomorrow. After adjusting the cheepoo meter to read exactly 6 in the buffer, it agreed (close enough) with the other meter on solutions ranging from 5.3 to 6.7before it got too far off - .2 or greater. Its actually almost perfect between 5.7 and 6.3, which is the main range you want to test in hydro.

This is much simpler than trying to calibrate it with 4.0 and 7.0 solutions. I would put it in the 7.0 and turn the screw until it read 7. Then rinse, dry and put it in the 4 solution and turn the screw again. Now, rinse and dry again so you dont contaminate the test solution, then go back and check the 7 solution only to find its off. Then you have to do a series of going half way on the screw each time until you have the same error margin at 7 as you do at 4 - and hoping its close in the middle where you need it to be right on.

I also got a lot more than I thought I was getting. I thought I was getting 5 packets that would do 100ml each. I actually got 5 containers of 10 packets each, so 50 packets. So I can make 5 liters of the solution. That should last me at least a year if Im careful not to contaminate it too fast. They are actually little capsules that are a little tough to open, but no biggie.

Im giving this 6.0 buffer stuff a thumbs up as well.

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Well, I think this experiment is about done. I think I have lost the root rot war.

At 1AM this morning the rez was at 5.6 (down from 6.2 at 9PM last night), so I added tap water to bring it up to 6.3. By 6AM it was down to 5.4 again. The runoff from the NFT tote was at 5.3 and the runnoff from the membrane tote was at 5.1. I added tap water and a big chunk of GFF (Garden Friendly Fungicide) and did a top feed of all three plants plus flood the nft and membrane root balls with the extra strength mix. By 10 am the rez was down to 5.3 - repeat as above. By 1PM it was down to 5.4 again - repeat as above.

As of 5 PM the rez was down from 6.4 to 5.4 and the nft tote runnoff was down to 5.1 and the membrane tote runnoff was down to 4.3.

I think the root rot has won this one.

My trichomes are about 70% milky with about 1% amber, so still a bit early to harvest, but I dont think I have much choice.

I will post weights, etc when I have the data.

Oddly - the plants dont look unhappy at all other than some tacoing - which I am blaming on th wild PH swings and too much air flow.

Oh - by the way I have another product to let you know about - a fan speed controller. This one is cheap and works very well to slow down my 20" box fan. Wish I had tried one a lot sooner.

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I just finished cutting and trimming all three plants, and it turns out the E/F tote wins! Not by much - about 10% over the NFT - but its a win. These are “wet” weights. I will post an up-date after drying.

E/F tote = 996 gms
NFT tote = 902 gms
Membrane tote = 736 gms.

If this follows my first grow, I expect to see a little less than 25% of that total for a dry weight = roughly 600 gms or 21 oz total dry weight. My first soil grow in this same tent with the same lights (at a lower wattage) netted me just under 16 oz from 4 plants, so I guess over all, Im happy with the results.

I am disappointed that the Membrane tote came in last, but - thanks to the root rot and my poor design of the system, and the sneekyness of the roots, this was NOT a fair test - of any of them really.

In addition to the root rot, I discovered that the roots in the Membrane tote found a small hole or tear in the dacron ripstop fabric and made it down into the sub-layer. That pretty much voids the results as far as testing the meniscus effect if the roots were down there sitting in nutes the whole time. That is exactly what you do NOT want with this technique. Im afraid I have to call that a fail as far as the experiment goes.

The membrane tote was a clear leader early on, and I suspect it lost that lead after the roots got into the sub-layer - but who knows. I think that was also around the time the root rot started in, and Im fairly sure it started in the Membrane tote.

I still think the Membrane technique has potential as a grow technique. Maybe a lot of potential. However, I think Im done with it. Its a fair amount of extra trouble to set up initially and Im not sure how to keep the roots from drying out or getting through the membrane. You will have to be extremely careful with the membrane fabric selection and installation.

Of the other two, I really didnt like the NFT setup either, but thats because my roots really didnt like the fabric batting I chose. They were quite happy to grow under it or to a lesser degree, over it, but not IN it like we saw in that video I posted early on in the thread. Maybe a different brand of fabric would work better or maybe I didnt clean it well enough or?? In any case, I dont like it so Im not doing it again, and you cant make me :slight_smile:

I saw a setup on RIU where a guy was doing E/F with no medium. I like that idea, so Im going to try that (with some slight variations) next - hopefully without the root rot!!

Oh - I have decided that, even with the problems I have had, I really really like hydro a lot better than soil growing :smiley:

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Dry weights as follows. This is a little dryer than I have been getting at the local dispensary, but I dont trim as close or neatly as they do. I keep anything with frosting on it.

Dry weights E/F = 195/6.8
NFT = 189/6.6
Membrane = 175/6.17
Total = 559 gm / 19.7 oz

Thats roughly 25% more than I netted in my soil grow, so Im happy.

I wont get to make any Green Dragon or capsules for several days, so a report on effectiveness and how it “smokes” will come later :slight_smile:

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Superb and informative experiment, Larry. The amount of time and effort taken to build, test, and share your results must must have been ‘yuge’. Such a beautiful set-up. Thank you for sharing.

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@anon32470837, What are you using to take your close-up shots, like those of the trichomes? Great detail. I need to be able to do that too.

Thanks,

SkyDog

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I use three different things to take close up shots.

For the wider shots I just use my LG G6 smart phone set to the highest resolution. Thats good for whole bud shots and you can zoom in surprisingly close after you get the pics on the computer.

To get even closer I got this set of close up lenses.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017XFXJPC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They work fairly well for getting even closer but not super close. I actually like this best for looking at trichome colors as it covers a wider area than the USB scope and is not quite as sensitive to shaky hands. Its still tricky though trying to hold the camera still enough to take a clear shot. I usually have to take many shots to get a few good ones.

For the really close shots I got this USB scope.

The software is not that great and you may have to spend a good bit of time messing with drivers, but once you get it working it takes really nice close up shots. The seller is good at customer support though and will help you through any issues.

However, it is even trickier as far as needing to hold it still to get a good clear picture. Thats true of anything that zooms in this close. I rigged up a Rube Goldberg gizmo to hang the scope from my light fixture so I can take pics hands off.

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I forgot to post a follow up on how the harvest turned out - the Green Dragon and the capsules I made from the RSO turned out usable but not real strong.

I like the high it gives - its real mellow and relaxing without making me too sleepy, or stoned feeling, which is good. I can still function ok after taking some. Its still not exactly what I was hoping for, but not bad. Even though it turned out weaker than my first harvest, I still got enough from the 19oz to last me several months at least. Im slowly increasing the number of drops / capsule to get it up to the dosage I like. Right now I have to take at least three capsules (4 drops of RSO mixed with coconut oil per capsule) at a time to feel much of an effect.

I was hoping for more of a wake me up kind of high, but this is a step in the right direction anyway. Its possible that if I had been able to let it all go another two weeks or so, it would be better. I still have the two extra clones vegging in mini hempy buckets. I plan to try this strain again by taking clones from them as soon as I finish rebuilding my hydro setup.

I am going to do a no-medium grow next time for sure. I am still debating between doing ebb/flow or some form of low pressure aeroponics with a possible NFT twist thrown in…

Im going to practice with the clones from the spares until I get it working. The two plants are super bushy and have maybe a dozen good looking branches on each one, so I have lots to practice on :slight_smile:

Im hoping to get the new setup so that I can root clones and then just leave them in the same tray to veg and bloom without having to transplant. I may even be able to grow from seeds…

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