What are the differences between F1 and F2 in terms of traits and variation?

I’ve been growing for personal use for a few years and I’m now looking to start breeding and cloning. I basically want to take an heirloom pure sativa like Malawi Gold and cross it with a pure Indica Heirloom like Deep Chunk.

I was planning on popping the F1 seeds as a kind of phenotype lottery and cloning whatever came out nice and basically alternating growing out my best clone and alternate ppping more beans to find a new phenotype I like.

However I recently heard that F1s tend to express the dominant traits and the F2s is where the recessive traits come out so it seems like I might find something more unique from F2 rather than F1.

What are people’s thoughts on the types of phenotypes you get from F1 vs F2?

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I’d just roll with the F1s and jam desirable plant onto desirable plant.

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I’m super new to the whole breeding end, have only ever done one seed run but an exhaustive amount of reading and video watching. …

I’d say F1 = the immediate expression of the parents. F2 = the expression further down each parents’ line. Also, recessive doesn’t always mean “bad” :man_shrugging:

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The reality is that unless you are breeding with landraces, the F1 thing doesnt apply in the same way as you are basically putting polyhybrids together. The first generation cross does show stability, sometimes, others it is all over the place.

Foreigner’s bang on, pick the plants you like and put them together.

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If you are working with a parental line that has been bred to F6 or more things are generally more stable in my experience also.

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Correct, F1s are only dominant traits from both parents, F2s bring out all the recessive traits.

It really depends on how stable the 2 original parents are. Taking two already stable things like you mentioned will make the range of F2s a lot more narrow, but in terms of hunting keepers to crop, F1s are usually the way IME. Ive had lines where I popped 100+ F1s and F2s, the F1s usually just had more vigor, and rooted faster, yielded more. But of course every plant is different, Im speakin in terms of population.

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Overview of Genetics in Astro x Alien Technology

  • Astro: A modern hybrid with traits such as high THC levels, vigorous growth, larger yields, and diverse terpene profiles.
  • Alien Technology: A landrace indica with stable genetics, compact growth, high resin production, and earthy/spicy aromas.

When crossed, the resulting genetics follow Mendelian inheritance, meaning traits are passed down based on dominant and recessive alleles. The progression of generations (F1, F2, F3, etc.) allows breeders to select for specific traits or uncover hidden recessive characteristics.


F1: First Filial Generation

The F1 generation is the result of crossing two genetically distinct parents: Astro x Alien Technology. This creates heterozygous offspring, where each plant inherits one allele from each parent for every gene.

Traits in F1:

  • Uniformity: The F1 generation will appear relatively consistent because of the dominance of certain alleles. Most plants will exhibit a balanced mix of traits from Astro and Alien Technology.
  • Hybrid Vigor (Heterosis): F1 plants often grow more robustly than either parent due to the genetic diversity.
  • Dominance Expression: Traits like yield (Astro) and resin production (Alien Tech) are likely to dominate in the F1 generation.

What to Do with F1s:

  • Select standout phenotypes based on your goals: potency, terpene profile, resin content, growth structure, or flowering time.
  • Clone the best individuals to maintain consistency in future grows or use them for breeding.

F2: Second Filial Generation

The F2 generation is created by crossing two F1 plants. This generation introduces genetic segregation, where dominant and recessive alleles recombine, resulting in increased variability.

Traits in F2:

  • Greater Variability: Unlike the F1, F2 plants exhibit a wide range of phenotypes, including those leaning heavily toward Astro or Alien Tech and some recombinations.
  • Recessive Traits Emerge: Hidden recessive traits from both parents can now express themselves (e.g., rare terpene profiles, growth patterns, or unique effects).
  • Less Predictability: Since F2 plants are highly diverse, larger sample sizes are necessary to find ideal phenotypes.

What to Do with F2s:

  • Phenotype hunt extensively to identify rare or desirable traits.
  • Select individuals that express the traits you want to stabilize (e.g., an Astro-dominant plant with Alien Tech’s resin profile).

F3 and Beyond: Stabilization

When you breed selected F2 plants together, you create the F3 generation, which begins the process of stabilization. Each subsequent generation (F4, F5, etc.) increases homozygosity (similarity of alleles) for the selected traits.

Traits in F3+ Generations:

  • Reduced Variability: If selections are consistent, each generation will produce more uniform plants.
  • Stability: By the F5-F6 stage, plants should reliably express the same traits in each grow.
  • Inbred Line (IBL): An IBL is achieved when a strain is stable across multiple generations and all offspring express the same phenotype.

What to Do with F3+ Generations:

  • Continue selecting plants with your target traits.
  • Avoid inbreeding depression by maintaining genetic diversity until the desired traits are stabilized.

S1: Selfed Seeds

S1 seeds are created by reversing the sex of a female plant (e.g., using colloidal silver or STS spray) and self-pollinating it. This results in seeds that are nearly identical to the original plant.

Traits in S1s:

  • Preservation of Elite Phenotypes: S1 seeds inherit the genetic makeup of the parent plant, with most offspring closely resembling the original.
  • Homozygosity: Recessive traits are more likely to appear due to the lack of genetic diversity.
  • Reduced Variability: Most plants will express traits of the original female.

What to Do with S1s:

  • Use them to preserve and replicate a unique or elite phenotype.
  • Grow out S1 seeds to hunt for minor variations or recessive expressions.

Backcrossing (BX)

A backcross involves crossing a hybrid offspring back to one of the original parents to reinforce specific traits.

Traits in Backcrosses:

  • Reinforced Parent Traits: Offspring increasingly resemble the parent plant.
    • BX1: 50% F1, 50% parent.
    • BX2: 25% F1, 75% parent.
  • Homozygosity: Backcrossing increases homozygosity for traits specific to the chosen parent.

Example:

  • BX1: F1 (Astro x Alien Tech) x Alien Tech = BX1 with traits leaning toward Alien Tech.
  • Reverse Backcross: If you want to amplify Astro’s traits, backcross the hybrid to Astro instead.

What to Do with Backcrosses:

  • Use to stabilize traits from a specific parent (e.g., Alien Tech’s resin production or Astro’s terpene profile).
  • Avoid excessive backcrossing to prevent inbreeding depression.

Which Breeding Path is Best for Astro x Alien Technology?

Here’s a scientifically guided workflow:

  1. Start with F1:
  • Grow out the F1 seeds and select clones from the best plants. Focus on vigor, resin content, and terpene profiles.
  1. F2 for Variability:
  • Create F2 seeds from your F1 selections and grow out a large population.
  • Record data on growth patterns, potency, yield, and other traits to identify exceptional phenotypes.
  1. Stabilize in F3-F6:
  • Cross selected F2 phenotypes to create F3s and beyond.
  • Focus on stabilizing specific traits, such as Astro’s hybrid vigor or Alien Tech’s resin content, through controlled breeding.
  1. Preserve Elite Plants with S1s:
  • If you find an elite phenotype, create S1 seeds to replicate and preserve it for future grows.
  1. Use Backcrossing Strategically:
  • Backcross to Alien Tech to reinforce landrace traits (e.g., compact size, resin density).
  • Alternatively, backcross to Astro to enhance modern hybrid vigor and potency.

Key Considerations

  • Genetic Diversity: Avoid excessive inbreeding or backcrossing to prevent loss of vigor. Introduce fresh genetics when necessary.
  • Sample Size: Larger populations are essential for F2 and beyond to find desirable phenotypes.
  • Detailed Records: Track traits like growth rate, flowering time, potency, and terpene profiles to guide selections.
  • Patience: Breeding takes multiple generations to achieve stability, but the results are worth the effort.

By following this structured approach, you can unlock the full potential of Astro x Alien Technology and produce a unique, high-quality strain tailored to your preferences.

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Wow thanks!

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This is probably the most concise, yet detailed, summary of plant breeding I’ve seen
Excellent post @CkNugz :+1:

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I honestly hate looking through F1’s. Tend to get a bunch of plants that look or smell like one parent but come out harvested like the other parent. There’s not really ‘phenotypes’ per se, just a ton of mish mash all over the place. You also won’t see any or very few recessive traits that could’ve been apparent in or both of the parents.

I much prefer to look at F2’s where things are segregated much more. There IS phenotypical variation, recessive traits are actually visible, and you can find things very much like the parents or grand parents, as well as particular blends of them, much more easily than you can in F1 imo. Just takes numbers. Sometimes you get lucky tho :upside_down_face:

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I would agree that for the most part this is true , you could have a pure sativa that is not landrace and same for a indica and the cross would still be distinctly different enough to consider as a f1 cross how ever most people are crossing polyhybrids like you say and most of the time they go back to either northern lights, haze, skunk1 or og kush if you look back far enough.
I’m particularly interested in first generation sativa indica hybrids , I crossed an eastern manipur Burma to Pakistani chitral kush , talking a 22-24 week monster sativa to a short stalky 8 weaker. The manipur bright green calyx’s with an almost blue striping on them and the paki chitral has pink to purple buds on most plants.
The resulting cross should be neat to hunt threw.

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Yes, I agree. I have worked in some cases polyhybrids back to landraces and my observations there have been that they tend to be quite stable in F1 (if you can still call it that) but, the heirloom will express in more dominance in that generation generally, in that case then the ‘F2’ of that line will then likely show much more variation, for sure. But I like to choose, where possible, at least one parent that is inline bred, if not, having both parental sides that have similar genetic lineage in the background somewhere. Whichever way you slice it, its a game of numbers if you want to achieve something stable post F2. That takes time and not many people go that far it seems. Mostly they do ‘F1’ and move on. I get it though. Each to their own, that is also cool in my book, too. I also do the same myself just to see what comes of it.

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Huh?

Whats going on in hurr

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Im just a man with a watering can but…

:grin:

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Now annotated!

All im saying is… these are all steps.

F1 is a new box to you
F2 you accept how large the box is

Edit :slightly_smiling_face:

F3 can i tighten that box
F4 i keep fucking with it and its not tighter
F5 i found out i cant pick a mate lol
Back to f1

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Unless both parents of the F1 cross have the same recessive trait, right?

This post is so killer. I’ve needed this for months now. :joy:

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As far as I know. But in all honestly Ive only made F2s with 1 recessive in the F1s. And it did come through very dominant in the F2s.

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So I have a few questions after reading this. First is if inbreeding becomes undesirable after f6 what does that mean for a strain like Deep Chunk that I’ve seen offered at f13? And second is I have some dj short blueberry f5s. Am I to expect them to be pretty uniform across the board?

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  1. Inbreeding depression! Its an ibl at that point. The breeder just wants you to know how long hes been @ the craft using the same seed lineage.

  2. Should be very uniform at that point, some may even say its an ibl at F5 & beyond.

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