What are your methods for determining dominant and recessive traits?

[McMuffin]

This seems like it would be tricky and would take a large (100-500 plants) population to determine SOMEWHAT with accuracy which traits are recessive and which traits are dominant. Oh, and lots of data (Yayy! Data!!!)

How do you go about breeding with a specific goal in mind? Or do you just throw caution (or pollen ) to the wind and see how lucky you get? Is there a method to your madness or are you just winging it?

What about smaller scale (less than 100 plants) projects? Or even micro scale (less than 20 plants)?

[Hoodini]

In my area it is easy. . .the strong plants survive and the weak ones don’t hahaha so I throw caution to the wind and I selectively breed at the same time

[Fuel]

I love to reinvigorate a parallel line this way, sowing directly in soil. Not only because i find it beauttifull to watch weeks after weeks but also because it remember me how really grow this plant naturally. And why it produce so many seeds per female ^^

But i will not be hypocrite, i do that only with “high potency” lines. This type of selection hurt a bit the smoke quality of the next generation in general; i don’t doubt on exceptions and lucky shots at all but i’ve never encountered them personnally. Each time i was in the obligation to “refine” a bit the line after have reinvigorated it this way, because generally below the reference’s cut.

For one time McMuffin, this is a very weird question ^^ I can share some things on the scales, but i can’t made a link with the question of the title.

The selection process is a very personnal thing, i insist. So you don’t really have the choice, you need to become more personnal in the question itself. Sharing a bit the vision than you have on it i mean, wich permit me to adapt mine to your. Or the logic say than we will end with dictators than want to dominate the question with theyr own compass ^^

[lunchpale]

Hey cool I bin thinking about this lately.
So “if”” you can grow 100-500 starts to go through that would sure speed things up some ,but I think a keen eye for males/females , collecting/storing pollen, cloning females to test run, I think even a smaller grower popping single packs can come up with some sweet shit, imo.

[Fuel]

Scales of breeding projects was always a polemic subject, but it’s only marketing. In essence it is not.

I will repeat what i’ve said in another post, i consider than a 30-50 specimens range is the comfort zone to go ahead in any line and any type of work. In the way than most growers are considering, but when one enter in complex methodologies and when one speak about programs and notations … it’s allready an intensive hobby at this level.

In practice, the number of specimens worked at the same time is just a “time-leverage” in the procedure of the breeding plan. And in practice again, the persons able to juggle with the accurate evaluation of 50 specimens at a time still very rares. At 100 we reach a type of persons than are close to an obsession or autism syndroms like asperger lol Half-joking.

Look, funny yes ? Now imagine yourself spending around 7 to 10 minutes on each specimen to give them a notation. Make the maths, and don’t forget to consider than each week you must do it again. Until the very last specimens, the finalists, are the only one alive. Make the maths again and add to it the daily maintenance of this type of lab.

With 500+ specimens, we are not longer talking about the gently germinations we are used to see and share as growers but more this type of thing :

And generally a crew behind the breeder if he’s not totally mad.

And it doesn’t matter if you’re outdoor, when you have acres to select, it end the same way lol :

A procedure of selection mean generally to analyze a dozen of parameter per specimen, than you multiply per the number of plants involved. It become quickly a full time job with the work in bonus than imply to simply grow healthy plants. And it imply too, to have a solid methodology to stay productive and to avoid the stagnation in the results. Life is short.

It’s pretty rude to write this synthesis, but it’s important to remember to people the crude reality of the breeding. And also than the marketing is made to dream, no to build cold head competitors all around the globe (which is my own dream lol) ^^

Now, the sweet part after the sour one : the methodology matter. This is obviously wrong to say to a “closet breeder” then he can’t reach the level of quality of someone than can grow 100 specimens at a time (to get a real percentage for your stats). In fact it’s totally irrationnal in practice, the only factor in action between these twos persons is only the time.

Let’s say than you can grow only 10 specimens. It don’t mean than you will have 10% of the quality of the 100plants guy. It just say than you will need 10 rounds to reach the same accuracy (considering than the 100-guy can give the same level of attention to each plants than the 10-guy).

And specially today with the democratization of formidable tools like tablets than can be linked with databases and than include also a “camera” to take shots of the plants on the flow. It’s an example, i personnally don’t like tablets and smartphones and i prefer laptops + camera able to do macros lol But it doesn’t matter, the possibilities and the combinations today are enormous. You can track your specimens in ease (in anyway you want) then compare them later (in anyway you want) when you have collected enough datas.

Off course i avoid in these considerations the types of work than make you dependent on genetic sourcing. Like fem’s factories vampires, than always need a new cut or a new strain to hack, to stay the head on the surface of hungry customers for novelty. I’m considering only the fact to develop a new genetic pattern (wich make you more autonomous and less hungry in gens), with the goal to refine it to be in accord with your goals.

There is no judgement of valor to search in this post, but the importance to stay rationnal when you read some … informations … in the marketing and “common theories” shared on boards. If you’re really passionnated by breeding, eating every text on it, seeking rare gens than you love, and you’re ready to dedicate your space to this hobby : you best friend is the rationnality and by extension the manner you will adapt your goals to the environment you have. Not the number of plants.

[lunchpale]

Well I must be messing up somewhere, it hasn’t cost me a fortune in 30 years, but yes the record keeping and tagging of clones is a lot of work but like anything it becomes habit and normal.
Peace

[McMuffin]

Please tell me more about your record keeping. What data do you collect? What is your method for tagging and identifying the different clones?

[lunchpale]

I am not doing anything special , for example when I bought DJ’s Blueberry , there was #1 and two , short super white and crystal with minor fruity smell and a nice up high, 3 was a hermie male , 4 was a purple female , 4 feet tallwith a nice day time buzz but no mold resistance and a grapish/hashy flavour, 5 was a male I tossed early on and I can’t remember why, 6 was a male that was tossed early as well , and so on with the rest of the pack.
What I collect is pollen not just info.
I use nothing more than bread tags hanging on a stem,masking tape on the side of a pot with strain name and number on it.
I find it easier in summer as it’s easy to look at many plants and pick the ones that you like the structure on and cut clones which I keep in a geeenhouse, when the corusponding plant finishes flowering I have the option to keep the clones I collected or toss em and use the keepers with males I think will work well with them.
I hope that explains my simple way of doing my hobby.
Peace

[McMuffin]

@Fuel

It’s an example, i personnally don’t like tablets and smartphones and i prefer laptops + camera able to do macros

Would the reason for preferring a camera capable of macros be to inspect for glandular trichomes? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

@Fuel

“high potency” lines

I was reading somewhere that said when breeding for potency you want to steer the opposite direction of hempy-ness, doing so by destroying all fast flowering males and only breeding with non-dominant late flowering males, as the desirable potentcy / psychoactive trait is actually recessive.

Is this true? I mean, it makes sense.

[Fuel]

You’re not wrong on trichomes, they have not the same shape in all plants. But also sometimes you have to digg very deep to find the little segregating detail. For the funny example, it can be also this :

A decent macro function permit to capture for a while numerous little details than can count years later.

@McMuffin

by destroying all fast flowering males and only breeding with non-dominant late flowering males, as the desirable potentcy / psychoactive trait is actually recessive.

About the male’s potency (DJ Short i guess), i can’t say than it’s not a safe way for sure. At least to start.

But it still not an universal one and it can lend to fool your analysis to consider this “flowering declaration time” as a 100% recurrent allele in all males of all strains, and for all cases. Can be also dangerous for your objectivity in selection of males.

I mean by that “fast sexing ON / late sexing OFF” or " fast sexing OFF / late sexing ON". The picture for the macro subject is obviously choosed to make the “one stone, twos birds”, yes ^^

I totally agree than high potency is recessive and must be “maintained”, so by extension all linked traits than are drawing the whole pattern of this type of specimen.

It exist numerous manner to face it, let’s quickly comment three logical strategies :

• To increase the potency in same time than you work the others traits : So, choosing only the most potent specimens in the array of your selection. Like, “i’m searching only the most potent specimens in the pineapple taste range”.

• To increase the potency only after having stabilized the strain in the array of your selection : I push the “pineapple taste” of this strain to the maximum potential than i’m able to do (ratio time/results until you reach a plateau). Then afterward, i’m working on the potency of this new sub-genotype potential.

• To simply split your work in twos line and never hybridize them until you reach the maximum potential in both lines. So basically, the line “pineapple taste” and the line “high potency”.

With all our previous conversations and considering than even the most opposite visions of selections are ok to say than high potency is fully recessive, i’m sure than you can fairly evaluate the real difficulty in practice of the three methodologies ^^ And determine also what is my personnal vision, and on what i can’t be objective.

@McMuffin

when breeding for potency you want to steer the opposite direction of hempy-ness

Let’s say ruderalis this time ^^ I’m ok for a respectfull diplomacy, but not to over-complicate breeding conversations for that lol

I approve a lot your statement by experience, long lasting potential being very important for me in all type of projects. To don’t say the most important ^^

I’m aging, my tolerance is pretty high (fck that) even with rosin, and “ceiling” is my nightmare … so i just don’t want to smoke all day long. And i want to be also able to be sent to orbit too if i abuse too much, if i need it. Take care, i’m talking right now about my own phenotype ^^ I will update today the Breeding reference topic with a master piece book on potency than explain well the beauty of the breeding on it. We are not always aware than we are creating strains mostly compatible (on potency and types of potency) with our own genetic profile, then for people with similar genetic profile. It’s maybe dumb but i find it beautiful.

So after this little but important side-consideration, i will say than the ruderalis and its study was always my best friend to deal with potency. It exist many way to “counter-select” your stuff with this strategy, mine is generally focused on the fiber and seed production since i’ve discovered the book of Robert A. Nelson; i’ve made a comment about that in the presentation of this book in this way.

I’m reading again this post to try to proof-read my bad english, and realize than it’s very hard to talk about selection without sharing a personnal vision of it. So take care about that too ;o)

stay green

[MicroDoser]

@Fuel

It is obviously wrong to say to a “closet breeder” can’t reach the level of quality of someone who can grow 100 specimens at a time (to get a real percentage for your stats). In fact, it’s totally irrational in practice, the only difference between these two people is the time.

Very true and I made but discarded a post that said exactly this. (paraphrased your post for clarity)

[Palindrome]

I think the first thing in becoming a good breader, is first you have to be an amazing grower.
Once u got that covered, breeding will become easyer as you have a much better skill set.

As @Fuel have mentioned between his many gold nuggets of wise words, size of the op is not all depending.
It also have a lot to do with the genetics your working with, the skilled grower who knows his plants. Wont nessesary need 1000 plants to find the traits he’s looking for, as he can pic them out and isolate them. Once you have mapped the plants, and you have your mom’s and dad’s, the work becomes more rutine and just sorting thru and discarding off traits.

I have seen breeders do really great things, in closet setups and I have seen wannabe “breederes” who fucked up priceless genetics. Mainly cos they acctually didn’t know shit about growing, breeding and thinking making seeds is easy.

I multiple times sprouted 1000 seeds looking for a male, for sure that is not easy doing in a closet grow.
On the other hand, it’s just a matter of time and you could be lucky and find it between seed 15 and 25. Or as no #999, but each have their bennefits.
The closet guy can spend more time on the indevidual plant, the large scale breeder risk missing things.
As going thru 1000 plants, looking for that male that makes THC, and hopefully with the right terp profile. It’s tedious work, and yeah you prolly have to be a little autistic or something

I use a Punnett square, with the mapped traits I want to bring together. Over time, you will learn about the ressercive traits they carry with them.

2nd thing after becoming a skilled grower, is read up on Mendel’s work and start from there. Do that while you collect as many genes around the world as possible