Adventures in hydro #3 - AAA or Air Atomized Aeroponics - for sure!

No worries man. Rest up. Nothing to worry about here other than unimportant details.

I still dont know where I messed up. I weighed all the bags before making the concentrates, and just re-weighed them. All my weights check out, so I got the correct 3-2-1 ratios. Its just the over all concentration is higher than I thought it would be. No big deal. Its easy to add extra water to get down to the desired EC.

Actually, its much easier to go stronger than needed and then dilute down to the desired EC rather than trying to increase a small amount when using a three part nute.

My math still looks ok to me, but there could still be an obvious mistake in logic. Its hard to double check your own thinking sometimes :wink: More likely, its a series of small measuring errors. Not quite full quart jars, plus imprecise measurements on the rez water level.

My tap starts at around 100 PPM. The PH down and shock I use dont change the PPM levels enough to worry about - maybe 50PPM between both at the most.

Its been about 18 hours and the PH has only moved that initial 0.1 and is holding steady since this morning. That may be in part due to some colder temps in my grow room. The rez is staying very cool with not much temp climb at all in the last 18 hrs compared to normal.

Im pretty excited about how its going with the jacks so far. I have to say, I really like the clarity of the nute solution. That will make spotting even the tiniest bit of clouding or algae very easy to see.

Its still early, but I am quite pleased with the switch so far.

Day 63 Nine weeks!

The plants and roots continue to do reasonably well - especially the roots. The fuzzies are making a good comeback. The roots are still not perfect - lots of smooth roots and the air pruned areas, but Im happy with how its going considering too few nozzles.

The leaves have me confused. Some are deep dark shinny green. Some are deep dark flat green. Others are pale and almost yellowish and some are a mix of dark and light. Plus, there are more of those that look kind of burned like they did when the roots died back.

Its that way on all three plants. How can the same plant look like its starving on one leaf and over fed on another? This is why botany isnt a “real science” :wink:

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Now you’re cooking with fire. When you get time, maybe you can do a cost comparison between Jack’s and MC. I know MC is pretty inexpensive.

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Mega Crop used to have a price comparison chart that showed Jacks as slightly cheaper per gallon, but I cant find it now. Of course, they also showed all the things Mega Crop has in it that Jacks doesnt.

If you go by the ‘nominal’ concentration for Mega crop at 5 gm/gallon, it works out cheaper per gallon if you buy larger bags of course - same for Jacks.

There are many buying options and some ship for free, so lots of variables, but lets keep it simple and just look at my personal costs.

Its never cost me more than $8 total for 500 gm bag of Mega Crop. So thats $8 for 100 gallons of nutes or $0.08/gallon. Even running drain to waste, the nute cost is almost insignificant compared to my electric bill alone.

I bought the smallest “kit” I could find for the Jacks which was 4 pounds total for all three parts. Cost was $22 shipped. Just like Mega Crop, if you buy arger kits, the price/gallon goes down.

Mixing Jacks at my current rate would give me aprox 300 gallons at an EC of 2.1, but Mega Crop mixes up at closer to EC 1.4-1.5 maybe. So, Id say this Jacks will make roughly 360 gallons at EC 1.5 (Im stoned, so that math may be off)? That works out to about $0.061/gallon, or just about 2 penny less per gallon than “free” Mega Crop. If you miss the free sample, the cost of Mega Crop doubles for the smallest bag.

Of course, those numbers change if you are buying larger quantities. I havent run those numbers. Im just a small grower and the larger bags would last me years and years and years.

For me, the costs are close enough to not matter. Im running about my maximum usage as far as nutes right now and its just over 2 gallons/day, so my nute cost was around $0.16/day for Mega Crop vrs $0.12/day for Jacks - roughly.

The free Mega Crop 500 gm sample is of course very hard to beet as far as out of pocket cost, but the larger 2500 gm bag is a much better deal price wise. Its also more in line with the 4 pound kit of Jacks I got. Buying the 2500 gm Mega Crop lowers its cost per gallon to $0.052/gallon, which is less than the Jacks kit I bought, at a similar over all cost - assuming you can get free shipping on that larger bag.

Anyway, the costs are close enough for growing or horse shoes :slight_smile:

BUT - my water is still crystal clear, no smell, and almost perfectly stable PH!!! So, in my particular case, the Jacks is looking like a clear winner.

Keep in mind that I had almost the same exact troubles with ($$$) AN nutes and GH nutes that I had with Mega Crop, so I cant blame Mega Crop. Im on board with the organics in the other nutes reacting with some crap in my water/environment and Jacks doesnt seem to have that problem at all.

I sure do miss the easy mixing of Mega Crop, but I am a Jacks convert now (fingers crossed). :smiley:

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I’ve always wanted to try it. I’ve read great things about it.

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Very, VERY cool setup!!
Those roots though…crazy!!!
I just skimmed but will have to go back through and read.
Very cool, thanks for sharing

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If you dont want to invest in several pounds up-front, that guy on Etsy I linked to above has about the cheapest small ‘kits’ for doing a trial run. Even then, the 4 pound kit should make 300 plus gallons, so unless you’re growing a LOT of plants at once, it should last a while :slight_smile: Of course, Google will show you plenty of other options.

Wow, thanks for the compliment! Yeah, its the roots that got me into this mess in the first place :smiley:

I was just thinking about this setup today and how bored I am getting. I decided the reason was that its working well and I have nothing to do! Thats even with too few nozzles. This AAA setup is actually a good bit less complex and a bit cheaper to set up than the HPA setup I ran last time.

I dont think I ever completed the cost break down.

Quiet air compressor = $120
Extra 5 gallon air tank = $60
Delavan nozzles @ $25 ea. Im going to use 4, = $100
Timer = $8
12volt power supply = $20
Solenoids 6ea @$8 = $48 (you could use fewer)
Misc air/water push-to-fit tubing and fittings = $35 max
Misc wire, connectors, etc = $30?
Root chamber and heater/controller = $50

Total = $421

That does not include basic growing supplies like a tent, lights, nutes, rez, etc. I added in the cost for a root chamber. Mine is just two 30 gallon fabric pots hot glued together. I forget, but I think the pots ran maybe $20 for 4 or 5 of them. You will need a small heater and temp controller for the root chamber, so add another $30 for those.

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Day 64

I havent looked at trichs in a few days, so I just checked. The most advanced buds on one branch of the big girl are getting close. They are pretty much all cloudy with a few amber starting to show. Still not enough amber for me, so it will be at least another week I think for those. The rest still have a ways to go. Lots of frost in lots of places - even way down where the light dont shine - so Im happy with that.

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I’m getting reports of skunky smells and couch lock on these, so should be what you’re looking for. :+1::seedling:

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Yeah, when ever I handle the plants, I smell it strong. My carbon filters do a pretty good job, but if I go out of the house very long, I can really smell it when I get back home. Guess Im used to it other wise :slight_smile:

Ok, I just had to re-fill the rez with Jacks. I am amazed that I actually had to use some PH UP to force the PH to climb at least a bit while running through that rez. Thats never happened before! I am absolutely amazed at the difference in PH stability. Not even using AN nutes with their built in PH Perfect buffers PLUS my added MES buffer, could keep the PH this stable. Not even close.

Plus, the past day I let the temps climb almost to 70F and still no cloudy and no smell. AND thats with me starting at 1/2 my normal chlorine dose and not adding any more! Woo Hoo!!

This isnt all coming up roses though. Im actually a little ticked off at @Howard.Crane (and @ReikoX too!) for finally pushing me to try Jacks. I have had my heart set on eventually building an automated PH controller - and now I have no need for one!!! You may have saved my grow, but you have spoiled my future fun building and playing with a new gizmo :wink:

I think I owe someone(s) an apology from my last thread. Maybe two or three people - all of whom have tried to talk me into switching to Jacks or some other raw mix at various times. I poo pooed them all and stuck with Mega Crop and AN nutes. I can be stubborn sometimes, and the way I spell, thats close to being stupid too :smiley:

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Yip I love me some Jack’s, works great, and cheap

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I am extremely pleased to hear that it’s going well for you so far! Here’s to hoping for continued success :smile:

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You can still build an automated mixing system. Similar hardware and controller logic, isn’t it?

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Ok, you are officially OFF the ‘spoiled my future fun’ list! An automated nute mixer/controller will be even more complex and gizmo-ish that a PH controller. Basically its just a different sensor and slightly more hardware on the pump side. Excellent idea!!

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You probably couldn’t do that with the Megacrop, or at least I couldn’t, because the concentrated stock solution wouldn’t keep as long without going sideways.

This guy built such a system, and although he mixes his own nutes I’m intrigued by his use of a preservative to keep the concentrate good for long periods - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=42wKIU8L4Lw&t=561s

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Very interesting! I am jealous of his wall of tech!

Here is the video where he goes into the details of nute mixing.

Two things jumped out for me between those two videos.

First was his use of ozone as a sterilizer for the rez. At first I wasnt clear on how he generates the ozone or how he controls the level. He said his orp controller wouldnt stay calibrated for more than one day, so Im lost on that. I finally saw he has a spa type ozone generator, so Im guessing the ozone generator was controlled by the ORP controller that didnt work, but if the ORP doesnt work, than how is he controlling the ozone? That ozone sounds like a great thing to use - especially if you are re-circulating like he is. Not sure how cost effective it would be for drain to waste.

The second one Im guessing is the same one you keyed in on - the Sodium Benzoate preservative he adds when he does the mixing of his concentrated nutes. I agree with you on mixing up Mega Crop concentrates for long storage. When I tried it, it grew crap after just a few weeks in sealed mason jars.

Have you had any issues with the Jacks growing crap when concentrated? I only mixed up one quart jars, but that quart will make about 100 gallons, which will last me months at the average rate I use it. Next time, Im going to do a much lower concentration level so I only have a few weeks of solution pre-made to store.

He is using Master Blend nutes for his part A, which is a similar to the Jacks. I wonder if the Jacks also grows crap when stored in concentrated form? Have you had any issues with that? I wonder of Master Blend has any organics in it?

Good find on the vids!! Lots to think about there.

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I have not had any apparent issues keeping my Jack’s stock solution for over a year in a one gallon jug in the dark. AFAIK, YMMV, TANSTAAFL, IANAL, and all other acronyms applicable in your area :wink:

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I would suspect the pH to be low enough to keep it from going bad.

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Hey, just read this whole thread, it’s a very interesting read for me because I want to try HPA albeit on a slightly larger scale. Not for growing pot though, Don’t judge me :wink:.

I wish I could though but my living situation doesn’t allow it right now. I grew pot before with DWC with a good success (after a few bad trials and a lot of swearing out loud) but then I devised some kind of media-less root-hanging-in-mid-air flood & drain system. The best growth I ever had, it was really good. I even left the system running and flew out of the country for 2 weeks lol… but I returned and it was still working perfectly (I over sized the water tank, there’s no magic happening here). Here is a photo of the system, but I later modified it a little but with the same basic idea:

Those are LED lights btw in the photo, but the camera white balance was adjusted to make the photo appear normal instead of well magenta colored.

So with that, Larry, I read some of the problems you had with PH. I had a hell of a time trying to control the PH at first, I read through every thing. I even remember lading on some Nigerian web page explaining how to control the PH with no success! Well until I did an excruciating step by step analysis and that’s what I found:

1- I surprisingly discovered that some of the system’s components screwed up the PH. I prepared two small buckets of PHed water (6.0 PH), one was the control and in the other I put some of the system components. First up was the freaking airstone. I just put the air stone in the water and stirred it up a little (I stirred the control bucket as well) and the PH went up the roof. Turned out that particular air stone was made of god knows what but I suspect it had some calcium bicarbonate (an actual stone! they really stayed true to their word lol). I ordered another one, did the same test, PH didn’t change at all.

Second up was the air hoses, I tested them, they actually decreased the PH a little but it wasn’t a big deal. Still I ditched them and ordered new one. Again the PH was stable with the new ones.

Third up, I checked all the fittings (i.e. put them in the PHed bucket and stirred then waited for a while). These were okay.

Fourth, the expanded pellets in the basket and the basket itself (separately checked). the basket was okay but the clay pellets messed up the PH a little. I them learned to give them a really really good wash before using them then they stopped messing with the PH.

Lastly, I ran the whole system with only PHed water (no plants and no fertilizers). Just to check if the outside tank or the plant tanks were messing with the PH. The PH stayed very stable even with aeration vigorously going on. At that point I knew my system was okay.

2- Algae/slime messes with the PH and makes the tank smell bad. I was careful regarding light proofing from the get go but I never imagined how important it is. A friend of mine accused me of being anal about it. That’s true, it’s one of the most important things. I stuck my mobile phone’s flash light (it’s powerful) to every thing, the plant tanks and the water hoses and made sure that not even the tiniest bit of light can get through. You see in the photo I put aluminum foil around the plant tanks, I eventually ditched this idea in favor of a light proof tank from the get go, I also checked it by sticking the flash light to the tank wall and making sure no light at all on the other side of the wall. This is my favorite tank for plants: Coleman Party Stacker.

The top of the Coleman Party Stacker needs a reflective sheet on it to be completely light proof, but what I like about this tank is that the inside is white so I can see the water color and the roots very clearly and it looks very clean as well. As you can see here:

The above photo is not DWC btw, it’s actually flood and drain with the reservoir tank outside the tent. The photo was taken when the system was in the process of filling up the the plant tank again. This way the problem of the water heating inside the plant tank (which is inside the tent) was eliminated completely, Freaking root rot never again.

And here with the top covered with reflective film from the time-lapse camera view:

When I did that, the PH stabilized (meaning that it followed the normal behavior) and no slime at all in the tank. The only place I found the tiniest bit of slime was, believe it or not, on the air hose inside the plant tank. That was because the hose was a clear plastic and acted as a fiber-optic so it transferred a tiny bit of light from outside into the tank. But that wasn’t a big deal

Well, enough with the PH already. I see you run a sterile tank. I tried that and it worked as long as I put the correct amount of chlorine at a regular pace. The problem I faced with sterile tank was that when I forgot to add the chlorine (after it has evaporated out of the water) the tank suddenly smelled bad. I somewhat figured the problem with running sterile. I kill all bacteria and fungus (good and bad) and I make the system completely sterile, then I forget to add chlorine and suddenly the stage is totally clear for “bad” fungus or bacteria and they literally occupy the tank. After a few trials (including peroxide, it was my worst ever trial, for anyone reading this DON’T USE PEROXIDE), I ended up running a live tank with bennies. I tried several ones, I tried Recharge from Real Growers (everyone was raving about it) It worked well but it’s not made specifically for hydroponics so it made the water and the roots look bad. My greatest success was with Great White (I’m not a sponsor btw, yes I know, I wrote all that just to tell you to use Great white lol). Anyway, it worked perfectly and the strange thing and that is true, after I used it, I let my PH swing with no ill effects to the plant. Actually in my latest grow, I never checked the PH even once, I added the nutes, then the tiniest pinch of the bennies (you should only add a tiny pinch, never more) and closed the tank, that’s it. I also never checked the PPM because I measured exactly what EC to expect from the amount of nutes I add (I used General Hydroponics Maxigrow, Maxibloom and Calmagic) so I know what the PPM to expect. Every thing worked great and it gave a very good yield.

One other mistake I did at the beginning is to follow some bad advice on some of the growing sites and starting with what they recommended at 1/4 or 1/2 the recommended nutes. It not a bad advice perse but I didn’t realize at the time that if everything was optimized for perfect growth like the lighting, the temperature and the CO2 concentration (I put the tent in my bedroom to raise the CO2 so I was literally feeding the plant :joy:" then the bottleneck would be the fertilizer concentration. It drove me crazy for a while because I had nute deficiencies that all went away once I doubled the PPM.

Well enough about this post. But I still will talk with you Larry about your previous HPA trials.

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Im curious about this. How low a PH would you say is safe?

I just checked the concentrated jacks I have and its sitting at about PH 3.9. I also just mixed up some Mega Crop at a lower concentration - maybe 1/2 as strong - and its sitting at 3.8 without being completely dissolved yet. The Mega Crop used to want to go to around 6 when mixed normally, and the Jacks wants to fall around 6.3 with my water.

So, not that different at hi concentrations - but - my concentrated Mega Crop grew crap when it was in storage for several weeks. I havent had the Jacks long enough to know what its going to do, but @Howard.Crane has kept his much longer than I ever kept the Mega Crop.

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Glad you chimed in @Mohamed and welcome to OG!! Thanks for the detailed comments. Im rushing around right now, but I will get back to you with some questions and comments later tonight.

If you want to read up on what I did when I was running HPA, there is a link in the first post. Warning - its a LOOOOOOONG thread!

To keep things short - I highly recommend you go straight to AAA and skip the HPA part. AAA is less complicated, fewer parts to mess with, and maybe even slightly cheaper to get going depending on the size of your rez. Even if it ends up a little more $$ its well worth it I think, but the price difference should be very small either way.

One quick question - I can’t access any of the pics. It just takes me to the home page of the sharing site. Hopefully you will be allowed to post more stuff soon!

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