Adventures in Hydro #2 - LP Aero/NFT mash-up - or - switching to HPA?

anon32470837 · October 10, 2018, 8:05am

Well, after about an hours work I now have just one clone dead center in the chamber, and the two nozzles I lowered have been raised back up to about 2" below where they were before. So far, this seems to be working much better as far as getting an even distribution of mist to the roots.

It now seems like I have a very over sized chamber for a single plant, but thats fine for now. I need to keep reminding myself that this is all still experimental, and a work in progress

Im thinking that the next major revision for the next grow will be to make two smaller chambers - using smaller, 10 gallon stacked fabric pots - with a single plant in each one. The chambers would be 12" in diameter instead of my current 24", but still 22" deep. That would change the volume from 43 gallons to just under 11 gallons each, for a total of 21 gallons. That will require slightly less than half the volume of mist to fill them both up.

For now, Im going to stick with this layout and see how it goes.

anon32470837 · October 12, 2018, 1:28am

Im now PHing the rez down to the 4.6-4.7 range in order to get the water that comes out of the nozzles to be in the PH 5.8-5.9 range.

Over the last several days I have been raising the EC slowly from EC .5 because the plants looked a bit pale and I was seeing some slight intervenal chlorosis. Yesterday I started to see tip burn after a couple of days at EC .8. Im going back down to EC .6. I started adding some cal mag last week at slightly under 1ml/gal (which added to the increased EC) and Ive increased that to about 1.25 ml/gal. So a little less Maga Crop and a little more calmag with an over all lowering of EC. Im still leary of these low EC numbers, but that seems to be what it needs, so Im sticking with it.

I still have not gotten back to where I was after 5 days of pure LITFA. The roots still look pretty droopy, but they are finally starting to branch out to the sides again, but still no fuzzies. It is very easy to screw this up and not so easy to fix it again.

Im about to decide to toss this clone out as well. It is refusing to grow much at all. It may have grown a 1/4" taller in the last two weeks - maybe. On top of that, 90% of the eaves are now single finger. There are a few 2 and three finger leaves and only one with 5. I think maybe these poor babies have been subjected to a few too many failed science experiments, and/or - to be more honest - too many stoner screw-ups. Plus it was taken from a seriously abused mom that is not in much better shape. I think it would be much better to have a healthy plant to start.

I’ll have some new C99 fem seeds soon, so if this baby hasnt taken off strongly by then, I will start one of those seeds and try it.

anon32470837 · October 12, 2018, 6:14pm

I retired that poor abused clone - but - when I checked the roots closely, there was some fuzzy coming back! So, its possible to recover fuzzies after you screw it up Unfortunately, the plant itself still was not growing at all, so its in the trash

This is what she looks like today - no change from more than a week ago.

I had one seedling left from the unknown un-sexed seeds I started, so I decided to experiment with it before my new C99 seeds get here. They will be here Monday, so it will take another few days to get them ready to transfer to the chamber of root death

In the mean time, I will see what settings this new baby likes when its this small. Hopefully, I can convert this t a chamber of life!

Here is a pic of the clones roots the day I got back from fishing. Lots of pure white fuzzy roots and shoots growing horizontally like there was no gravity.

This was three days ago - after I cut off a LOT of dark brown crap. No fuzzy

This is today after pulling it out. Some fuzzy roots coming back!

This is the new torture subject. Taking it out of a small Dixie/hempy cup and putting it into the stocks. There is no escaping now…(insert evil laugh here)

anon32470837 · October 12, 2018, 11:18pm

I had a sudden brain storm about a way to ‘calibrate’ the nozzles to see how much mist was hitting the roots and where it was strongest from top to bottom, which nozzles were getting the most or least mist to the roots, etc. I took some empty toilet paper rolls and stuck them in the hole where the net pot goes and waited for a few cycles.

That worked very well for the first nozzle I messed with. A minor change in angle and the cardboard tube was getting nice and wet all along its length.

However, the other two didnt seem to want to play nicely. No matter how I pointed them, I couldnt get a decent mist build-up on the cardboard tubes.

Hmmmmmm. So I took some flat cardboard cut from a box and held it in front of each nozzle in turn to check the pattern. I wanted to see if the ‘cone’ was hollow or solid. The specs were not clear on that.

Boy was I surprised to find that the ‘cone’ isnt a cone at all!! All of the nozzles actually have at least three heavy lobes to the spray with a fairly even but much finer spray pattern in between. No wonder I have been having trouble getting an even distribution of mist!!

This is the pattern from one nozzle on a long cardboard tube.

For now, I have them all adjusted so that they hit the net pot fairly evenly with a light mist. The area below the net pot is not anywhere close to even. This will be an improvement over what I had, but still not ideal.

I suspect part of the problem is that these nozzles are designed to work from 70 PSI up to 1000 PSI, and I am using them at close to the very bottom of their pressure range. Im not sure what to do about this though.

anon32470837 · October 14, 2018, 7:11pm

The little seedling I transferred to the root chamber of death is doing pretty good! It was kind of droopy at first, but its been two days and its looking ok.

The really good news is that, after two days of getting used to the change in environment, its started to put out new roots - and they are showing some fuzzy hairs!!

I am starting to think I may be almost getting a handle on this…maybe…

When I first transferred it to the chamber.

Today.

Some fuzzy hairs closeup.

Its interesting that I am back to my original settings - .7 sec ON and 55 sec OFF.

anon32470837 · October 16, 2018, 6:25pm

We have been having a very interesting discussion about PH in this thread.

and it has me second guessing my decision to lower the rez PH to 4.6.

Now Im wondering if the dramatic PH rise in the mist is really “real” or not. It also occurred to me that even if the PH rise is real, the changes may not be happening instantly or as rapidly as I thought. Ive been having some odd issues with the plants, and I keep coming back to it could be PH related. Im now thinking that the mist could well be coming out of the nozzles at the same PH it was in the tank, and its still at that PH (or very close) when it hits the roots. Then, after some time passes, and it collects in the bottom of the root chamber, it starts raising up.

So I may be hitting my roots with nutes that are way too low in PH.

The main reason Im looking at this so close is that my plants keep having odd growth up top even when the roots look good.

Here are some pics of the latest experimental torture subject. When I transplanted it from the small perlite hempy bucket, it looked pretty good. A little pale in color, but the leave all looked very healthy and there was only a little drooping from lack of watering.

This is it right before the transplant.

This is a few hours after the transplant.

Now, the new leaves are significantly darker, but they are drooping badly and the old leaves are drooping plus turning yellow and discoloring.

This is today - about 5 days since the transplant.

So, Im going to increase the PH in the rez to 5.4 or so and see what happens…

I also discovered why the nozzles have such odd spray patterns, and why those odd patterns seem to change between my checks - there is crap in the nozzles!

I have been checking into that, and I think Im going to have to get better about keeping light out of my rez. I discovered some algae growing in it. Apparently, algae can get past a 150 mesh filter. So, I ordered a 200 mesh filter to go right before the solenoids. I also added some pool shock to the rez at 3ppm to kill whats there now.

Once the filter gets here, I will flush the system, install the filter and clean the nozzles again and see how that goes. In the mean time, I need to move my main work light as it sits right over where the rez is. Im also going to work on light proofing the rez more - especially the lid and pipes.

Thanks to @Esrgood4u and @HappyHemper for helping bring this “light” issue to my attention.

I knew I needed to keep light out of the rez, but I didnt take is seriously enough.

Esrgood4u · October 16, 2018, 6:45pm

The roots don’t like light at all. My red buckets were only slightly opaque so I thought I’d be fine. A week later slight algae. I shone a torch onto the side of one of the buckets and I was able to see light but not much at all. I cleaned the algae out the buckets and wrapped half a roll of black duct tape around each bucket and repeated the test until I was 100% sure I had no light penetrate at all. I’ve been fine ever since . I still pool shock them weekly though “just incase”

HappyHemper · October 16, 2018, 6:47pm

Word of the week: “Algae” lol. I hope you kill’em dead. I’m going to try and get a filter for my setup too.

I am starting to wonder if my black-inside hoses are insufficiently black inside too.

anon32470837 · October 16, 2018, 7:07pm

I think my worst sin has been leaving the lid off the rez for long periods with the over head light on and the work light on right over the rez. Im adding foil and extra layers of light blocking material in various places, covering the yellow lid to block more light, and moving the work light. Plus - dont leave the lid off!!

I ordered a 200 mesh filter to install right before the solenoids. I already have 120 mesh inside the rez on the intakes and the curculating pump, plus a 150 mesh just outside the rez. The algae is getting through all those.

I also had to get one that is a bit more expensive than I wanted because it needs to withstand some moderate pressure. That line stays between 100-110 PSI all the time and the cheaper filters cant handle over 80 PSI.

I ordered the 3/4" x 200 mesh version of this one.

If you are in DWC, you will need to check the flow rate of the filters more than pressure. I have very low flow rates at hi pressures. You will have just the opposite - hi flow rates at low pressures. You are going to need a filter with more surface area so it doesnt slow down your flow rate to much.

There guys have some different ones that may work for you.

Their prices are similar to Amazon for the same things and they ship fairly quickly.

Esrgood4u · October 16, 2018, 7:10pm

Or you could just dump some water, nutrients and an air pump connected to an air stone into a blacked out bucket like I do. Top up once every 2 - 3 days works really well for me and the most simple form of hydro known.

anon32470837 · October 17, 2018, 1:24am

LOL! I cant really argue with you on that considering all the different things Im juggling at the moment - clogged nozzles, algae, weird PH issues, strange plant problems, dead solenoids, etc etc.

BUT…

Im actually already doing the absolute simplest form of hydro with my seedlings and my moms - hempy buckets

Nothing is simpler than a bucket filled with perlite, or vermiculite, or hydroton, or coco, or just plain gravel. Poke a few holes near the bottom, add nute water every few days and thats it.

No air stones, no pumps, no nothin but lots of LITFA

On days like the last several I have had, I find it really irritating that a system so simple and sooooo boooorrrriiiinnngggggg, works so dam well

anon32470837 · March 19, 2020, 8:57am

Ok, the last couple of days I have learned several new things that should make this better going forward.

My light discipline for the rez sucks and needs to improve.
Algae can easily fit through a 150 mesh filter and partially clog my nozzles.
Partially clogged nozzles have weird spray patterns that change from time to time - making it very difficult to get a consistent spray pattern and coverage. The clogs also force you to use higher flow rates to compensate.
Just because the runoff water has a hi PH does NOT mean the plants/roots are seeing that same high PH.

1, 2, and 3 are easy mechanical fixes with a dash of added new habits - as in keeping the lid on the rez.

4 is more troubling.

The PH in the rez, and in the accumulator tank, and right before the nozzles is now at 5.4/5.5.

The run off water is still up to 6.4/6.5 - and the plants are doing much better after just a few hours.

This morning.

Just now.

The roots have also grown more in the last 8 hours than in the last two days.

The problem is, I cant think of any way to accurately measure the PH of the mist itself with my gear. Thats going to leave me having to judge PH changes by looking at the plants rather than using any measurements. I hate that. It puts an automatic delay in judging changes, and add another level of guess work. I have not looked, but I doubt there are any sensors on the market that can measure the PH of micron sized droplets in real time. If there is, its got to be $$$.

By the way - these nozzles put out a nice circular hollow cone when clean.

Now that I know all this stuff, Im going to wait before I start the new C99 seed. I want to get the new filter installed, clean the system thoroughly, then see how the coverage works as the roots grow longer and wider on this unknown seed. I want to make sure I have the nozzles in a good position/angle that will work from start to finish. That should be a lot easier with a full cone of spray that is uniform in all directions.

As far as why the PH is doing what its doing - I have no way to test any of the possibilities that were brought up in the other Non-linear PH thread. I will discuss those things over there.

HappyHemper · October 17, 2018, 3:04am

Boredom is pretty much 100% the cause of all my difficulties in life LOL. Got bored, got married, got bored, had a kid, got bored, traded a toyota in for a ford…

I will, however, probably be running a hempy bucket for comparison, to see just how much LITFA fits in one of those buckets…

I would stick with your plan to adjust the rez and not worry about runoff. Of course it reacts with air, but I would think that enough of the “virgin” solution is making it onto the roots to balance that out. I’d also try going up to 5.8-5.9 for a day, for the sake of varying the absorption of different good stuff.

anon32470837 · October 17, 2018, 3:34am

hahahahahaha!!! I am right there with you buddy

Yup, thats the plan. Well, almost. Im going to raise the PH sloooowly until I start to see issues again or the plants stop improving. That should give me a hi/low range to shoot for. Then I will let the rez go from low to hi but stay within those boundaries.

HappyHemper · October 17, 2018, 3:39am

Finding the upper boundary of acceptable pH is a great idea

anon32470837 · October 17, 2018, 11:12pm

The torture subject, er, ah, the cute little orphaned seedling, continues to improve, but more slowly. There was a huge jump when I went from PH 4.9ish to 5.4ish. There was more improvement last night when I went up to 5.6ish, but not as much. Now Im up to 5.8. The changes are showing up within just 2 or three hours, but the smaller changes are harder to see. Ive been taking before/after pics to compare.

I must be getting closer to ‘good’ because the fuzzies started showing up again night, and today, there are a lot more!

The cleaned out nozzles have let me lower the timing to .5 sec ON and 45 seconds OFF for an even lower over all flow rate. My filter will be here tomorrow, I will clean everything out and see how that works.

In the thread on non-linear PH changes, we got off on a side track about the effects of hi voltage static charges on water droplets. That has my MacGyver going strong trying to think of ways to apply some of that info to HPA. I think I can hear that poor orphan seedling crying ‘Danger Will Robinson!’ already…

anon32470837 · October 19, 2018, 5:44am

This should not be a big surprise to anyone, but the best PH for the rez is right around 5.7 to 5.8. Its amazing to me how quickly the plant responds to PH changes - both in how fast it starts looking bad and in how fast it recovers. It just takes a few hours to see big changes.

You can also tell by how well the roots are growing. Having the PH dialed in for the last 24 hours or so has allowed the roots to really take off. They have almost doubled in mass just since yesterday with lots of new fuzzies.

Here is how they looked yesterday.

And tonight.

The plant itself is also looking much better.

I got the new 200 mesh/80 micron filter installed. Hopefully that, along with running a sterile rez, and extra light proofing, will keep the nozzles clear.

I had been re-calculating flow rates each time I changed timing, so I could judge how big a change I was making in the flow rate, but that is tedious. I was about to set up a spread sheet to make it easier, but I realized all I need to know is the ratio of ON to OFF times.

For example, earlier in the grow, a setting of 0.7 sec ON and 55 sec OFF was working really well. That gave a flow rate of right at .6 gallons per day.

So, if you divide the ON time by the OFF time, you get the ratio of on to off. As long as that number is the same, the flow rate should be the same - up to a point. At shorter on times, things get wonky. For my setup, 0.3 seconds ON is really the absolute minimum for a nice uniform spray, but it doesnt quite fill the chamber. 0.5 seconds is about the shortest I can go.

So, my original 0.7/55 = .0127. Any other on/off times that have the same ratio will have the same flow rate.

Having nice clean nozzles, and spending more time adjusting the position and angles, has let me get back down to 0.5 seconds of ON time. Im currently at 41 seconds of OFF time for a ratio of .0121. So Im running a little lower flow rate than before. The roots look good and are staying wet, but I will be checking them every couple of hours for a while to be sure this is a good setting.

Im finally starting to feel like I have a handle on this. Of course, this is just the earliest stages of growing, so we will see.

Im going to let this victim, er ah, poor baby go for a few more days, or maybe even a week or more so I can judge how th roots do as they get larger and spread out. I may need to play with nozzle positions some more once the roots start to reach the lower portions of the chamber.

Once Im happy with that, I will start my C99 seed and grow for real

HappyHemper · October 19, 2018, 5:57am

So happy for your roots! This is pretty awesome. 5.8 is where my dwc likes things too. You’ve put in a lot of effort, great to see it returned in a bundle of white fuzzy roots!

anon32470837 · October 20, 2018, 12:14am

I am reminded once again. that I have a serious condition. Very serious. I forget exactly what the medical name is, but its something like Havetomeddleosis, or Cantleaveitaloneitis, or maybe Mustfiddlewithit Syndrome. The main symptoms appear to get much worse when things are going well, and running smoothly - bad hives, nervous sweats muscle twitches, inability to sleep, cant sit still, mind racing, etc. This is compounded by another problem I have. I thought at first that I was allergic to LITFA, but now I wondering if maybe I just havent been taking enough.

The bottom line is, things have been running so well that there is absolutely nothing for me to do - and Im a nervous wreck! Its only been a little more than day, but still…

The roots and the plant are doing great. The roots continue to grow rapidly with good horizontal spread, and nice white color, and best of all - lots of fuzzies! They have spread out to the sides enough that I can no longer easily get the net pot out of the hole without damaging the roots.

Trying to get good clear shots of the roots while they are in the chamber is not easy - partly because there isnt much contrast on pure white roots, but also because the mist hangs around a good while now that Im running such short OFF times, and it leaves droplets on the lens or just fogs up the image. I tried sticking my USB cam in through the hatch I made in the side of the root chamber, but I have a hard time holding it steady enough to get a clear shot.

There seems to be lots of fuzz in the middle and upper portions of the root mass, and deeper inside, but the ones hanging down are mostly smooth.

I think thats because those longer hanging ones tend to collect, and channel the runnoff from the higher ones, which keeps them too wet. Those drops that collect, and sit on the ends, make the root want to keep growing down, so thats the direction they go. The upper ones seem to be getting more of the ideal wetness, and/or droplet sizes, so they grow sideways - towards the source of the mist - and form more fuzzies.

I have been watching the larger droplets that collect on the roots to judge when to increase or lower the off times, but if I try to get rid of all the hanging droplets, the other roots want to dry out. I think that means that the system is still not really ideal as far as droplet distribution, and size, but I think Im for sure in the ball park.

Now, if I can just not screw it up…

Northern_Loki · October 20, 2018, 12:57am

Looking lovely. Brilliant work. How are the leaves looking?

Oh man this a tough one for intervention, though. Even after a massive dose of LIFTA, you are still having withdrawals. Overgrow, this is a call for help! Give this man some sort of distraction.

Uh oh. Are we too late?