I think my worst sin has been leaving the lid off the rez for long periods with the over head light on and the work light on right over the rez. Im adding foil and extra layers of light blocking material in various places, covering the yellow lid to block more light, and moving the work light. Plus - dont leave the lid off!!
I ordered a 200 mesh filter to install right before the solenoids. I already have 120 mesh inside the rez on the intakes and the curculating pump, plus a 150 mesh just outside the rez. The algae is getting through all those.
I also had to get one that is a bit more expensive than I wanted because it needs to withstand some moderate pressure. That line stays between 100-110 PSI all the time and the cheaper filters cant handle over 80 PSI.
I ordered the 3/4" x 200 mesh version of this one.
If you are in DWC, you will need to check the flow rate of the filters more than pressure. I have very low flow rates at hi pressures. You will have just the opposite - hi flow rates at low pressures. You are going to need a filter with more surface area so it doesnt slow down your flow rate to much.
There guys have some different ones that may work for you.
Their prices are similar to Amazon for the same things and they ship fairly quickly.
Or you could just dump some water, nutrients and an air pump connected to an air stone into a blacked out bucket like I do. Top up once every 2 - 3 days works really well for me and the most simple form of hydro known.
LOL! I cant really argue with you on that considering all the different things Im juggling at the moment - clogged nozzles, algae, weird PH issues, strange plant problems, dead solenoids, etc etc.
BUTâŚ
Im actually already doing the absolute simplest form of hydro with my seedlings and my moms - hempy buckets
Nothing is simpler than a bucket filled with perlite, or vermiculite, or hydroton, or coco, or just plain gravel. Poke a few holes near the bottom, add nute water every few days and thats it.
No air stones, no pumps, no nothin but lots of LITFA
On days like the last several I have had, I find it really irritating that a system so simple and sooooo boooorrrriiiinnngggggg, works so dam well
Ok, the last couple of days I have learned several new things that should make this better going forward.
My light discipline for the rez sucks and needs to improve.
Algae can easily fit through a 150 mesh filter and partially clog my nozzles.
Partially clogged nozzles have weird spray patterns that change from time to time - making it very difficult to get a consistent spray pattern and coverage. The clogs also force you to use higher flow rates to compensate.
Just because the runoff water has a hi PH does NOT mean the plants/roots are seeing that same high PH.
1, 2, and 3 are easy mechanical fixes with a dash of added new habits - as in keeping the lid on the rez.
4 is more troubling.
The PH in the rez, and in the accumulator tank, and right before the nozzles is now at 5.4/5.5.
The run off water is still up to 6.4/6.5 - and the plants are doing much better after just a few hours.
The roots have also grown more in the last 8 hours than in the last two days.
The problem is, I cant think of any way to accurately measure the PH of the mist itself with my gear. Thats going to leave me having to judge PH changes by looking at the plants rather than using any measurements. I hate that. It puts an automatic delay in judging changes, and add another level of guess work. I have not looked, but I doubt there are any sensors on the market that can measure the PH of micron sized droplets in real time. If there is, its got to be $$$.
By the way - these nozzles put out a nice circular hollow cone when clean.
Now that I know all this stuff, Im going to wait before I start the new C99 seed. I want to get the new filter installed, clean the system thoroughly, then see how the coverage works as the roots grow longer and wider on this unknown seed. I want to make sure I have the nozzles in a good position/angle that will work from start to finish. That should be a lot easier with a full cone of spray that is uniform in all directions.
As far as why the PH is doing what its doing - I have no way to test any of the possibilities that were brought up in the other Non-linear PH thread. I will discuss those things over there.
Boredom is pretty much 100% the cause of all my difficulties in life LOL. Got bored, got married, got bored, had a kid, got bored, traded a toyota in for a fordâŚ
I will, however, probably be running a hempy bucket for comparison, to see just how much LITFA fits in one of those bucketsâŚ
I would stick with your plan to adjust the rez and not worry about runoff. Of course it reacts with air, but I would think that enough of the âvirginâ solution is making it onto the roots to balance that out. Iâd also try going up to 5.8-5.9 for a day, for the sake of varying the absorption of different good stuff.
Yup, thats the plan. Well, almost. Im going to raise the PH sloooowly until I start to see issues again or the plants stop improving. That should give me a hi/low range to shoot for. Then I will let the rez go from low to hi but stay within those boundaries.
The torture subject, er, ah, the cute little orphaned seedling, continues to improve, but more slowly. There was a huge jump when I went from PH 4.9ish to 5.4ish. There was more improvement last night when I went up to 5.6ish, but not as much. Now Im up to 5.8. The changes are showing up within just 2 or three hours, but the smaller changes are harder to see. Ive been taking before/after pics to compare.
I must be getting closer to âgoodâ because the fuzzies started showing up again night, and today, there are a lot more!
The cleaned out nozzles have let me lower the timing to .5 sec ON and 45 seconds OFF for an even lower over all flow rate. My filter will be here tomorrow, I will clean everything out and see how that works.
In the thread on non-linear PH changes, we got off on a side track about the effects of hi voltage static charges on water droplets. That has my MacGyver going strong trying to think of ways to apply some of that info to HPA. I think I can hear that poor orphan seedling crying âDanger Will Robinson!â alreadyâŚ
This should not be a big surprise to anyone, but the best PH for the rez is right around 5.7 to 5.8. Its amazing to me how quickly the plant responds to PH changes - both in how fast it starts looking bad and in how fast it recovers. It just takes a few hours to see big changes.
You can also tell by how well the roots are growing. Having the PH dialed in for the last 24 hours or so has allowed the roots to really take off. They have almost doubled in mass just since yesterday with lots of new fuzzies.
I got the new 200 mesh/80 micron filter installed. Hopefully that, along with running a sterile rez, and extra light proofing, will keep the nozzles clear.
I had been re-calculating flow rates each time I changed timing, so I could judge how big a change I was making in the flow rate, but that is tedious. I was about to set up a spread sheet to make it easier, but I realized all I need to know is the ratio of ON to OFF times.
For example, earlier in the grow, a setting of 0.7 sec ON and 55 sec OFF was working really well. That gave a flow rate of right at .6 gallons per day.
So, if you divide the ON time by the OFF time, you get the ratio of on to off. As long as that number is the same, the flow rate should be the same - up to a point. At shorter on times, things get wonky. For my setup, 0.3 seconds ON is really the absolute minimum for a nice uniform spray, but it doesnt quite fill the chamber. 0.5 seconds is about the shortest I can go.
So, my original 0.7/55 = .0127. Any other on/off times that have the same ratio will have the same flow rate.
Having nice clean nozzles, and spending more time adjusting the position and angles, has let me get back down to 0.5 seconds of ON time. Im currently at 41 seconds of OFF time for a ratio of .0121. So Im running a little lower flow rate than before. The roots look good and are staying wet, but I will be checking them every couple of hours for a while to be sure this is a good setting.
Im finally starting to feel like I have a handle on this. Of course, this is just the earliest stages of growing, so we will see.
Im going to let this victim, er ah, poor baby go for a few more days, or maybe even a week or more so I can judge how th roots do as they get larger and spread out. I may need to play with nozzle positions some more once the roots start to reach the lower portions of the chamber.
Once Im happy with that, I will start my C99 seed and grow for real
So happy for your roots! This is pretty awesome. 5.8 is where my dwc likes things too. Youâve put in a lot of effort, great to see it returned in a bundle of white fuzzy roots!
I am reminded once again. that I have a serious condition. Very serious. I forget exactly what the medical name is, but its something like Havetomeddleosis, or Cantleaveitaloneitis, or maybe Mustfiddlewithit Syndrome. The main symptoms appear to get much worse when things are going well, and running smoothly - bad hives, nervous sweats muscle twitches, inability to sleep, cant sit still, mind racing, etc. This is compounded by another problem I have. I thought at first that I was allergic to LITFA, but now I wondering if maybe I just havent been taking enough.
The bottom line is, things have been running so well that there is absolutely nothing for me to do - and Im a nervous wreck! Its only been a little more than day, but stillâŚ
The roots and the plant are doing great. The roots continue to grow rapidly with good horizontal spread, and nice white color, and best of all - lots of fuzzies! They have spread out to the sides enough that I can no longer easily get the net pot out of the hole without damaging the roots.
Trying to get good clear shots of the roots while they are in the chamber is not easy - partly because there isnt much contrast on pure white roots, but also because the mist hangs around a good while now that Im running such short OFF times, and it leaves droplets on the lens or just fogs up the image. I tried sticking my USB cam in through the hatch I made in the side of the root chamber, but I have a hard time holding it steady enough to get a clear shot.
There seems to be lots of fuzz in the middle and upper portions of the root mass, and deeper inside, but the ones hanging down are mostly smooth.
I think thats because those longer hanging ones tend to collect, and channel the runnoff from the higher ones, which keeps them too wet. Those drops that collect, and sit on the ends, make the root want to keep growing down, so thats the direction they go. The upper ones seem to be getting more of the ideal wetness, and/or droplet sizes, so they grow sideways - towards the source of the mist - and form more fuzzies.
I have been watching the larger droplets that collect on the roots to judge when to increase or lower the off times, but if I try to get rid of all the hanging droplets, the other roots want to dry out. I think that means that the system is still not really ideal as far as droplet distribution, and size, but I think Im for sure in the ball park.
Looking lovely. Brilliant work. How are the leaves looking?
Oh man this a tough one for intervention, though. Even after a massive dose of LIFTA, you are still having withdrawals. Overgrow, this is a call for help! Give this man some sort of distraction.
Leaves look pretty good. The plant has recovered from my earlier PH screw-up nicely for the most part. I have some slight drooping of the tips of some of them that showed up today. I suspect that is because I re-did a chlorine treatment late last night. Im going to hold off on any more chlorine for a while or maybe just go with a smaller dose - maybe 1PPM.
These are all lights ON pics, so the leaves are not really that pale.
Your Jacobs Ladder pic is actually kind of appropriate. I have been thinking seriously about ways to get a static charge into the root chamber - safely.
After watching those videos you posted in the non-linear PH thread, showing hi-voltage, and static effects on droplets and even streams of water, I cant help but think it might have some application in HPA - IF - there is a safe way to do it. Im talking safe for the plant mainly.
This one was most interesting to me. If a simple, low power static charge can effect a stream of water this dramatically, then moving some micron sized mist should be even easier.
I plan to try that trick, but using nute water. Im curious to see if water with ionizing salts dissolved in it behaves the same way. Im pretty sure it will. A static charge is different from the charge created in a solution by ionization of the dissolved minerals. That video looks to me like its the Lenard Effect creating static charges on the stream, which is in turn bent by the static charge on the balloon.
The problems Im anticipating are mainly in two areas.
What effect will a static charge have on the roots and the plant? I need to Google that to see if there is any data out there.
If that looks safe, the next problem is that nute water is pretty conductive. Every surface in the root chamber will have a fine layer of salty water on it. Im afraid that will just ground any static charge before it can build up.
There is also the potential issue of electrolysis. That should only effect the nozzles, but if the current is super low, it shouldnt be much of a worry - if at all.
There is also the potential of creating hydrogen and oxygen gas in the chamber. The risk is that any that is produced will be in the perfect explosive ratio. But, I dont think that will be a serious concern - if - the current levels are low enough.
This should be easy to test once I get a good, low power static source figured out. Not sure when I will get around to that though.
Assuming the droplets are negatively charged, the plan is to - somehow - charge the top of the root chamber positively and see what happens. I havent come up with a good way to do that though - yet.
I dig this idea. If you find a way to powder-coat your roots, and roots only, with a nutrient solution of proper aeration, I will be the first one to attempt to license that patent for non-commercial use
Didnât even think of this, that would be a good reference/technique(s) to review. Macro scale, open/mixed environment, conductive/âwetâ materials, targeted deposition.
That may be to an advantage if you can get a charge onto the mist as it leaves the mist nozzle (may already be gaining some charge). The opposite of the balloon experiment, essentially. Keep everything else including the roots at ground potential.
The mist may want to coat everything, including the walls, but may be sufficient to also ensure any roots are coated as well.
P.s. I can see some pretty dangerous outcomes for those not familiar with how to safely handle applying charge to exposed materials, in particular, around moisture. So unless you have a background in electronics / electricity / physics, please resist the temptation to run such experiments until youâve had some time to research safe techniques. Not pointed at those commenting in this thread, as these are experience individuals, just applying a disclaimer. I am brought back to my high school days, but thatâs another storyâŚ
Yes. This is a perfect example of something that most people âshould not try at homeâ unless they are very knowledgeable on the subject.
I almost said âunless they are an expertâ - but then I remembered that old joke about an âexpertâ being an unknown drip under pressure⌠which is actually pretty appropriate in this case
Yup, thats the exact idea. Well it was at first. I did a little searching last night on the effects of static charge on plant growth and the results were all over the place.
There are a ton of people selling snake oil âelectric field generatorsâ or magnetic field generatorsâ of various types that are guaranteed to improve your plants growth. Some of them claiming that these are secrets handed down from the Mayans or piramids, or some other BS.
Then there are some Science Fair projects that talk about radial or parallel electric fields increasing growth up to 37%. No details on exactly what or how to generate a radial vrs parallel field.
Then there seems to be about an equal number of university studies that show mixed results - but the experimental techniques are all over the place.
One study suggested that it was âwell knownâ that currents applied to a plant that were above 0.00001 amps reduced growth rates and the health of the plant, but currents between that level and .00000001 amps increases growth rate and the health of the plant, but currents below that level did nothing.
So, it looks like current levels need to be kept very very low. I have no clue how to measure currents that low, so any testing will have to be purely empirical. That could be hard on the babies in the torture chamber
Anyway, after reading all that, I decided it might be safer if the plant could be isolated from the charge. I dont think thats going to be possible considering the conductive nature of the mist, but testing is the only way to be sure.
Im pretty sure that the mist will be charged. The question is will it be negative or positive. The Lenard Effect happens when droplets form as water falls through the air. The air breaks the water up into smaller and smaller drops as it falls. That shearing action is what creates the charge. From what I read, the smaller drops are negatively charged and the larger ones positively.
Something similar seems to happen when water is just flowing over any non-conductive surface - like plastic pipes, buckets, etc. A charge is generated. It some cases, that charge can be enough to mess up a PH meter.
Basically this is just like rubbing a balloon on your hair or a wool sweater.
In that video, the water is exiting a plastic bottle, then the stream get broken up as it goes through the air. Those two things will both be generating a charge on the water. Its enough for the static from the balloon to attract it quite strongly. Those droplets in that stream are a lot larger, and there for have a lot more mass, than any mist from a hi-pressure nozzle, so our HPA mist âshouldâ be easy to manipulate with static charges.
I think the trick is going to be doing that without electrocuting the roots.
If you could get the perfect balance and get the current flow to fall within that range of .00001 and .00000001 amps, then you might see double benefits.
You would âpowder coatâ the roots with the perfect size droplets. That should allow you to drastically lower the water flow. Right now Im sure at least 95% of the droplets that come out of the nozzles never touch a root. Thats all wasted. If you could get a higher % of drops actually hitting the roots that would be a huge increase in efficiency.
With the current in the âgood rangeâ, you might see additional growth and health in the plant. Potentially a large - over 30% - increase from some of those studies.
So, I see a lot of potential here - with a lot of risk too
Well, I tried a quick and dirty âstaticâ test to see if any droplets were attracted to a rubber bulb from a turkey baster. I dont have any balloons and couldnt find anything else handy that took any kind of static charge. The turkey bulb didnt work all that well, not much of a charge at all, but it did have some.
Results - not much. Its possible the bulb actually repelled the mist, but I could not be sure. If there was any difference, I couldnt really tell ither way.
I need to get some balloons, and find some wool, and try again.
Ive been running at 0.5 seconds ON for several days now and the plant likes it. I have been moving up from 35 seconds OFF to my current 44 seconds OFF. That seems to be just a bit too long an OFF cycle. Im seeing some browning and shriveled roots in a few places on one side of the root mass.
Over all, that general range of timing is working well. Im startting to see more fuzzies - even on the longer roots.
So, of course, my Cantleaveitaloneitis (or is it osis?) has kicked in hard. Im going to try a short test at .4 seconds ON and 31 seconds OFF and see how that does.
The theory is to try to create a more uniform environment by shorter On and OFF times.
As discussed in another, thread, Im also going to switch to 12/12 for a couple of days to see if I can get this victim to show sex. if it turns out to be a female, and if it survives my Messwithit Syndrome attacks, I may just keep it growing along side the C99 Im going to start soon.
Droplets of just H2O would be, but you are planning on doing this with a nutrient solution. Nutrients have differing charges.
One way some pure water plants remove elements from the water is with charged plates. They run it through a positively charged area, then a negatively charged one and each section pulls out different elements leaving the water purer as a result.
In this image, they are the anion and cation towers (purple and pink)
Selectively removing elements from your nutrient solution does not sound desired to me
As always, I will be interested in the results of your experiment.
I will be very interested to see the comparison between a very advanced HPA system and a very basic LITFA hempy system. That was a dramatic root growth you got in a day once you had your PH closer to the values you need.
works really well for me and the most simple form of hydro known.
