Interesting. Im now sure this crap started before I transplanted it to the chamber.
Looking back at the old pics, there was green algae and some browning on the roots when I took them out of the perlite.
In my case, it has just continued to spread down from the top, where it started. I had been feeding that plant from the same rez while it was in the dixie cup, so it probably started in the rez.
Maybe yours is/was starting in the water buckets?
Im trying out a new free image viewer/editor by FastStone. I hate the windows options. Ive been using their image re-sizer for quite a while, and I love it.
Anyway, I discovered it has just the thing for tracking growth of roots, or plants - an image comparison tool that lets you lay one image over another and switch back and forth quickly. Ive been taking root pics every few hours, and its very hard to see changes when you are seeing them that close together, but this tool helps a lot.
Add this to the GIF maker, and you have a cool tool to track changes.
Here is a GIF of two images exactly 24 hours apart - this morning and yesterday morning.
I am really disappointed about the brown crap. I think Im finally just getting this really dialed in, and the brown is killing the roots. You can see how the middle parts are spreading wider - which is exactly what you want to happen - while the rotten parts are shrinking. Close-ups show how the brown is killing off the fine hairs and making the roots shrink where ever it spreads.
.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to stop it, so last night I unplugged the pump, and disconnected the rez. Im now soaking the rez, and all filter parts in highly concentrated pool shock. The plant is still getting misted with whats left in the accumulator tank. At the current flow rate, it will last probably another few days at least - maybe a week.
Im not going to let it go that long. The new C99 seed is growing fast and should be ready to transplant in another few days I think. Probably by tonight I will pull this poor baby and start the cleaning process for the chamber and the rest of the system.
My new nozzles, with the smaller 0.02 orifice, and the stronger ADV springs, are coming in the mail today, so I will be playing with them after I get the system cleaned.
More to come…
Almost forgot - the plant up top looks great other than some slight leaf droop. Color is good but getting slightly darker the last few days - after I went longer on the OFF times and it started to spread wide. I checked the TDS between the IN/OUT probes, and the IN was right at 500, but the OUT was up to 697! Its never been that big a difference. That tells me that Im too hi on the EC, which is 0.9. There is also a LOT less run off collecting in the small container I have under the chamber. Between the longer spray times, and the larger root mass having more time to drink more between spray cycles, less is getting to the bottom.
I’m pretty sure you are right. Looking at how I prepared them I think I have not sanitized well enough. Sure I ran the system with chlorine, but I did not take apart every fitting, dod not soak the hoses, etc, etc.
I should know better too, because when we brew beer holy shit do we ever sanitize the living bajesus out of everything with chlorinated TSP, h2o2, isopropanol. I guess same applies to hydro, but unfortunately no airlocks.
No reason why not.
If you had a UV steriliser on the airline that pumps the air in and maintained positive pressure in your rootzone, similar to maintaining negative pressure in the tent, all the air inside would be sterile and a very limited possibility of any infection making it in to there. If it was sealed well enough you could even fit an airlock which would double as a leak checker.
You may have to have something like a silicone sealing ring around the stalk for that though.
If you have an infected environment it would stop that infection making to to your roots.
Does the process of HPA make your nutes sterile?
I guess you are right, as you said, sterilize the air and pass a ton of it under positive pressure. Anything is possible, just a matter of time + resources + effort. Maybe I’ll try that on the next round – blow through a UV and HEPA, seal the net pots. Or try first with bennies, then see. Sterilizing air and keeping a positive pressure in the root zone is a lot of work; and makes maintenance a bigger chore still. Maybe one day.
Not sure about HPA sterilization - that’s @anon32470837’s department, i’m just bubble-curious
I just recently read the any bacterial, or living bennies are killed by passing through an HP sprayer. Dont know if thats actually true or not, but it seems reasonable that they would not like being rapidly pressurized/de-pressurized and broken up into micro sized droplets. The same post suggested that you should never filter bennies smaller than 400 microns - Im at 80 microns. It looks like my only option for bennies would be to hand spray on the roots with a small spray bottle.
So far, that isnt helping with my brown crap, and neither did the chlorine. Thats whats making me think my issue is probably more an algae thing. Algae can be much harder to kill. Plus there are apparently dozens if varieties, most of which are unaffected by bennies, and many of which are even UV resistant. My variety seems to be bleach resistant as well. Tough crap.
I think my only/best option is to do my best to prevent it in the first place. I dont see any good way to do an airlock or positive pressure thing with my setup - at least, not in any cost effective way.
On a different note…
I going to have some fun experiments coming up soon…
I also got the new nozzles today from Ecologic. They are NOT the same as the ones from Aeromist, but the springs, and the little rubber balls may be interchangeable. I will test that when I pull the baby and open up the system.
The biggest difference between them is that the Aeromist nozzles are whats called PIN nozzles. There is a long pin on one end of the spring that goes up into the nozzle head. That pin forces the water to turn 90 deg before it exits. I think this is what creates the hollow cone. It also makes the nozzles easier to plug up. The gaps around the pins is very tight.
The swivels work on either one, so thats good.
Im going to test the new ones for flow rate, how strong the springs actually are, and to see if they are hollow or full cone, and how the hang time looks. Then I will decide which ones to use. I expect to start that tomorrow or the next day.
The Aeromist ‘pin’ nozzle is the lower one. You can see how it fits into the nozzle in the second pic.
Lets all take a moment to commemorate the passing of another brave seedling who gave her life in the name of science. Or to satisfy my curiosity anyway 
I really hated to do that. She was looking great up top, but the roots were definitely getting worse. The interesting thing is, they were also getting better in some ways. The brown crap was killing all the fine root hairs where ever it spread, but the roots were really starting to spread horizontally at the same time. When I pulled them, there was zero slime feeling and no bad smell. They just smelled kind of like fresh cut hay. Im even more convinced what I had was not root rot, but some form of brown algae.
So, after a moment of silence, its onward and forward! I have cleaned and sterilized the system. After cleaning the rez thoroughly, I re-filled it with a super strong pool shock solution and let that run through the system all day long. I set the timer to 30 seconds ON and 1 second OFF and let it empty the accumulator tank several times - spraying into the root chamber. I want it sterilized too. Everything should be good to go now.
The next step is to test the new nozzles, and do a few small tweaks. Im going to make 110% sure there are no air or light leaks, tidy up some wiring and tubing, etc. Sfter the nzzles testing I may raise the nozzles a bit higher in the chamber, but wont make that decision until I look at the mist/hang time videos and do some ‘cardboard tube’ testing.
More to come…
Well, the new nozzles are not getting off to a good start. The springs are supposed to open at 70 PSI, but they dont open at all up to 120 PSI.
I called the supplier and they are sending me a new batch.
In the mean time, I swapped out the 35 PSI springs from the Aeromist nozzles and they work ok. Still too low an opening pressure, but better than nothing.
Fisrt impression on these is they produce about the same mist. Havent finished the actual testing though. I thiink they will be at least a little less prone to clogging, but that will take time to be sure.
Hi Larry, some interesting experiments you’ve got going here! There’s a product called sm90 that you might want to look into. It’s sold as a ‘wetting agent’, but I’ve always found that it’s great for keeping roots, water lines etc clean.
It’s pretty cheap, and personally I wouldn’t run any type of hydro/aquaponics without it. It smells really nice too lol.
“Benefits:
• Improves spray coverage in soil and on plants
• Lengthens contact and control of sprays
• Increases the speed of moisture penetration in soils and growing media
• Reduces surface tension of spray nozzles and irrigation systems”
I think it could be useful in regards to your quest to have a true nutrient film. Anyways, just a suggestion…I swear I don’t work for the sm90 company lol
Interesting suggestion. @Northern_Loki did some experiments/testing using yucca as a surficant in his hydro build. I cant remember the details off hand, but I think he found that it increased dissolved O2 in his system. Maybe he will up-date us in on his results.
This looks like its the active ingredients:
OIL OF CORIANDER 1%
MODIFIED CANOLA OIL 3%
TRIETHANOLAMINE 5%
Im going to do some more reading on that subject for sure now that you brought it up and refreshed my memory.
Thanks!
I just finished flow testing on the new EchoLogic nozzles. The results surprised me, so I re-did the tests on the Aeromist nozzles, and on the black plastic nozzles as requested by @SuperiorBuds.
I tested all three sets of nozzles back to back using the exact same timing (0.5 seconds ON/1sec OFF x 50 cycles), pressure = 100PSI. I also used the same 35 PSI springs and rubber stoppers in both tests. I just swapped them from the aeromist to the echologic nozzles.
EchoLogic = 0.0118 gallons/min = 0.708 gallons/hour
AeroMist = .0.0196 gal/min = 1.176 gal.hour
Black plastic = 0.26 gal/min = 15 gal.hour!!!
The new EchoLogic are the clear winners, and the plastic ones suck big time. To be fair, the black plastic are being run at their max pressure, so they would be better performers at 80 PSI, but still much higher flow rate. Too hi for drain to waste, but they might be fine for a re-circulating system - especially in larger chambers.
Its hard to judge for sure, and there isnt a big difference, but the echologic seem to have a slightly better hang time than the Aeromist nozzles. So, they win the nozzle war. Im hoping the plants agree
If the replacement springs get here in time, and actually work, I will re-test with them in place. They should lower flow rates just a tad - maybe.
Forgot to add - the new EchoLogic nozzles are .020 orifice. The Aeromist are .024 orifice. That is probably why the lower flow rate.
And it would explain the smaller droplets (better hang).
Did you do spray pattern tests with them on the cardboard tube?
Ive been doing more cardboard testing today.
I didnt do the plastic nozzles, so this is just for the two types of SS nozzles.
The Aeromist are the pin type, and they have a fairly dramatic variation in the mist pattern. Mostly it looks like there are two or three, or more, major lobes to the spray where it is heavier, but its not consistent from one nozzle to the next or from one cycle to the next, and it changes with pressure. Every once in a while, the mist patter looks nice and circular and is obviously a “hollow cone”. However, the pattern is more normally several, uneven blobs of heavier spray with lighter spray in between.
I can only assume that variable nature of the pattern is due to the pins having some freedom of movement which changes the flow in the nozzles, which in turn changes the pattern of the spray when it exits the nozzle. It could also be very fine bits of crap getting jammed in there from time to time.
Each of the pins has three very fine grooves etched on the end of the pin where it butts up to the orifice. Im guessing these are to allow the water to get by the end of the pin more easily, but the gap is very small, and the pin has room to move lateraly.
Looking at the spray by eye, these look to have maybe a 90 deg cone angle, and roughly a 12" to 15" throw.
The EchoLogic nozzles are quite similar to the Aeromist in that they also have lobes where the spray is much heavier. but they are not as dramatic. In other words, the mist seems to be more evenly distributed. Its hard to tell for sure with these, but the cone looks more ‘solid’ than the Aeromist. They still seem to lean to the hollow side over all.
The cone angle looks narrower - maybe 50 deg, but the throw is about the same.
Ive adjusted the nozzles so the outer edge of the spray pattern just barely hits the net pot at the edges. I dont want to get the roots too wet with a direct spray, but I dont want to rely purely on scattered, randomly floating small droplets either - especially not at first.
I’ll keep it this way for a while after I put the seedling in the system. I’ll decide on changes/adjustments after the roots get adjusted and start to grow new shoots.
Im going to start with a heavy spray cycle at first = 0.7/30, until they get settled in. Then I will start trimming it down.
Im re-filling the rez, and adjusting PH, chlorine, and nute levels now. I expect to put the seedling in later tonight. Im going to start at 5.8 PH, 0.5 EC, and around 2PPM chlorine.
She is all tucked into the root chamber of horrors. Lets hope she likes it
The black plastic is a cut up garbage bag. The orange lid with the hole cut out is to help seal things up. The idea is tp keep the net pot from leaking air or light.
Oh, after seeing that last pic I lowered the timing to 0.5/35. Im checking every hour for the next little while to be sure she doent dry out. Im ok with her being too wet for now.
I forgot to post the results of my balloon powered linear accelerator experiments. Turns out it was a non-starter 
I tried getting a video of what happens when you put a static charged balloon into the root chamber when its filled with mist. That didnt work well at all. Even watching closely in a pitch black room, I couldnt see anything that looked like a for sure reaction to the balloon. The mist may have wanted to move away from the balloon, or it could have just been air movements disturbing the mist.
So, later I found an old wool sock and tried rubbing it on a short piece of PVC pipe. That produced a much stronger static charge, nice snaps and crackles, but still no obvious reaction from the mist. This time, its just possible that maybe, possibly, it could be, perhaps, that some small amount of extra mist was attracted to the PVC pipe - maybe. Which is just the opposite reaction I thought, maybe, possibly, I might have seen with the balloons.
So, it looks like using static to powder coat the roots with mist isnt going to work - maybe. I didnt try reverse charging the root chamber, or the nozzles at the same time. Maybe after this grow.
I need to look into the whole aeroponics thing. I need to know more ways to abuse my plants 
Some people just didnt get beat up enough in middle school
hahahahaha!! If you really are my long lost twin, then yup. Aero is for you - its the least boring way to grow that I have tried so far. Of course, that also means its the most trouble! 
Actually, I think trouble is the wrong word. It is the most technical way to grow would be a better way to say it. Potentially, its also the highest yielding and fastest way to grow - or so I heard on that webnet thingy somewhere I havent proved that yet with my growing, but I havent actually let any of my plants live long enough to tell
@SuperiorBuds has said that he is getting much higher yields. Cant remember what he said about grow times for sure, but I dont think he saw a huge reduction in time? Dont remember for sure.
Low Pressure Aero is the easiest and least expensive as far as parts and setup. The only real downside is you will have to recirculate the rez - with all that implies about balancing PH, EC etc.
HPA is next up the scale. Here is where you can start to see those fuzzy roots, and where you’re supposed to start seeing noticeable improvements in yield and time. If you can get an HPA system dialed in. so you have low enough flow rates, you can do drain to waste and still save money. That also simplifies rez maintenance, and time required for maintenance.
That all assumes you can get the system dialed in, and THAT assumes you have nozzles that produce the correct size droplets with a decent hang time. Nozzles are the heart of the system. Without nozzles that produce a quality mist, with droplets in the correct size range, you’re just going to end up with LPA roots. Not that LPA roots are bad, but they are a step down from the fuzzy kind.
Thats my main beef with Atomizer. He refuses to share ANY nozzle info. He’s good about general theory, and he will jump in and tell you where you screwed up - after you have spent money and time on the wrong stuff, and its too late. He is really good at that.
The top of the aero scale is AA, or Air Atomized aero. AA can give you the most uniform mist quality, and it is the most tuneable or adjustable system. You have almost total control over flow rates, droplet size, throw distance etc. You can dial in an AA system much better than any other type of aero. You also have the potential to have the lowest flow rates, which will save $$ and allow you to do drain to waste easier and cheaper.
The problem with AA is that no one - especially Atomizer, who is the king of AA - will give you any clues as to which air atomizing nozzles to buy. There was a long thread on RIU a few years back where they were doing some of the earliest development, and refinement of HPA, and AA. Atomizer, and two or three others all decided NOT to share their HPA or AA nozzle information with the rest of us lowlifes. I can only assume they did that so they alone would stay at the top of the heap and remain the unchallenged “kings” of aero.
Once again, the nozzles are the heart of the system. If you have crap nozzles, nothing else matters. Decent AA nozzles start at well over $100 EACH, so its not the kind of thing most folks can just take a wild guess at, and risk throwing away several hundred dollars at a time if you guess wrong. I certainly cant afford that kind of risk.
IF you knew which nozzles to buy, setting up an AA system would actually not cost that much more than the cost of a good HPA system, and potentially much simpler as far as parts count, and plumbing.
As far as the theory, the goal is to provide the roots with a constant, unchanging supply of nutrient droplets that are just the right size. You dont want a wet cycle followed by a dry cycle. You want it just right all the time, so the roots are never starved or drowned. If you get it just right, they will have the perfect (according to NASA) supply of nutes and O2 at all times.
You can get close to that with HPA with some work. AA would be a good bit easier to produce that perfect environment, but there is the whole $$ nozzle thing.
Well, fuck that guy. Nothing pisses me off more than somebody who buys off-the-shelf parts and does not share the part number. If he turned his on his own lathe and did not want to disclose the taper, orifice, overlap, and spring constant, fine, but i bet you anything it all came from an online retailer.
Do you know the cycle required, and the size of the droplet? I browsed through RIU – one smug motherfucker. I know nothing of HPA, but i know quite a bit about fuel delivery in industrial diesel engines, and i bet you six of your favourite beers AA is no more complicated. It’s AT MOST 12 steps.
I’m getting on board, fuck it. Gonna go do some research.
Oooh. Now we are talking. HEUI “fuel” injection! 
Ahh, ignore me. You’ve got me fantasizing. 
