it’s true you are never going to get a bigger mix than with the F2 generation, so the throw a broad net and clone the best in terms of traits is probably the most common way it’s done now, it’s a numbers game though so it does need big plots and lots of trials and testing to get the most out of it. Qualitative vs Quantitative trait analysis an all that.
Heterosis seems most beneficial when it comes to disease/pest tolerance and vigour/ yield in my experience.
It’s not the most common way it’s done now, but it should be. Plots of 30 are pretty common…hard to say when Heterosis is most beneficial. Could be best realized when addativity comes together to form the best idiotypes etc. But you can’t pass go until you have idiotypes that are also homozygous. Doesn’t really matter if folk understand it or not, that’s what’s happening.
I only just vaguely remember idiotypes and allotropes from immunology I think?, my biology is a little rusty for sure 
Whether a trait is additive also opens up the concepts of simple and complex traits, I.e those that are derived from a single locus and generally follow mendelian inheritance etc vs traits derived from multiple loci which are much harder to ‘fix’ or pass on etc. ikn, it’s all crazy.
Am I right that ‘transgressive segregation’ and the term ‘pheno hunt’ are more or less the same in the way it’s being used here? I mean I’m pretty sure I get the concept but isn’t it more or less a technical term for variation?
Heterosis in the F1. Not possible to breed true due to heterozygosity. And mid parent values, predictable, but not off the charts. Transgressive segregation in segregating generations the F2, BC1, et al. Transgressive outliers beyond the realm of either parental line, extreme phenotypes, where all improvement begins. It’s not something you’d forget if you ever learned it lol.
Don’t take offense. I’ve not met many lower biologists that could speak very deeply into genetics.
I don’t take offence brother lol. I am mostly comfortable with my capacity to comprehend, but I’m an engineer not a geneticist/biologist, and not even a lower biologist 
I just didn’t/don’t grasp where T-cells/Antibodies come into it which is the only familiarity I have with ‘idiotypes’ and only then way back in biochemistry… I just like to learn so I’m always curious and willing to listen, all good man 
Interesting, I haven’t necessarily found this to be the case myself. I have been growing a Black Dog/9lb hammer cross now for about 3 generations, the original BD was purple and potent, the 9lb was a green pheno, was reasonably potent but had morphological traits that were preferable, the offspring produce a variety of phenotypes, some green and some almost black, they all have similar aroma and growth habits, and they are all similar in potency. Some people prefer the purple and swear it’s stronger but I don’t think I can pick that myself. I also have a Vietnamese black that is mostly purple, but does throw about 30% green pheno’s, but in this case the purple pheno’s are nearly always more potent. What I have found a challenge is to get ALL the traits I want as well as being reliably purple…
I think of purple as a good marketing because punters seem to think it’s better lol.
Finally found someone who agrees with the fans of the purple. Although I understand each viewpoint, my beliefs are entirely based off of user and their brain receptors. Every individual responds differently to certain compounds produced by the herb. That’s why we have varying opinions on what’s fire and what some deem bunk.
Curious inquiry here:
For the common lay-person who knows very little about biology and genetics, is it worthwhile to try and understand everything, or should we just breed them and observe?
As someone who wants more knowledge and understanding I question the opportunity cost of learning certain principles in stabilizing traits vs just learning through experience. The experience route takes much less effort and provides real world understanding. The knowledge route could teach me principles that shorten the learning curve, and potentially save me years of setbacks.
Which is the wiser?
I’d say learning the basics like what each breeding scheme is good for, why backcross, why f2 etc is plenty… just enough to make progress and not run in circles haha
All the deep stuff isn’t necessary really 
Only if you want to, or you know… over time you pick up on words and more complex concepts.
Breeding rule no1: just cross the damn plants 
Definitely hear that loud and clear. I understand the purpose of F2 but after reading the “Creating true breeding strains” thread my head is spinning a little 
My problem is I have 6 individual recessive plants (leaf mutants) and I want to work each female to F2 to re-introduce the mutant leaf type. I also want to have the P1 mom in each F1 cross so I also have some BX1 crosses too. Thank you for confirming I just need to stick to my guns and see what fires.
EDIT Just to avoid a double post I present another line of questioning, because I don’t see it spoken about often. Talking specific cannabinoids like THC-V, THC-P, and all the CBD ones as well… this thread has the intent of the most potent cannabis. My question is:
How can we truly tell what potent weed is like? What makes it potent? THC contents? CBD contents? Other compounds we have yet to understand?
Furthermore, is there any real proof that we can breed potent cannabis or is it all conjecture? Or luck of the draw perhaps?
Same way we did it before all the labs. Have to smoke them to find that out. Have your friends smoke them too and come to a consensus. There’s been extremely potent plants in the past, most are not though.
Just to make sure we’re on the same page here…
Are the 6 individuals from the same line ?
the p1 mom is the one showing the leaf trait?
If so, I’d start with a backcross to the mom to try to fix the leaf trait. Then start some bx1 seeds, keep as many as you can that shows the leaf trait and smoke em.
From the bx1, some will smoke better than others. I would do a seed increase with the ones that smoke good and show the crazy leaves and hunt those for keepers ie stronger effects.
Then, self the keepers to find out if they are homozygous for the high and leaf traits, find 2 that are and mate them. Those are your breeding pair.
Or skip the bx1 seed increase and directly self the better bx1. Identify a couple that breeds true and bulk, that’s your line.
Smoke em all, some will make you feel like angels are licking your balls others will make you feel like youre stuck in traffic 
Potency and type of high is very complex, it’s a symphony coming together… some cannabinoid can choke another, while some will amplify. Different ratios, pinch of this, lack of that etc will all contribute to the strength, type and duration.
You definitely can breed for potency, thing is… it’s mostly luck… you cross some stuff and sometimes you stumble on a cross that knock your socks off…
It’s at least important to understand the mechanics of how genetics work so that you can make a plan for how to accomplish your goals. Don’t let it hold you up though. Start working now and use your projects to drive you to learn.
That’s what works best for me anyway. Any time I want to learn something new, I can get a lot farther by learning what I need to do a project.
Also, don’t count out other species of plants to help learn breeding. I have found that breeding tomatoes is very satisfying and is also an easier platform to learn on.
Right. This seems to be the right way to go about things. We can analyze things to the nth degree or we can just consume and see what feel best. Thanks for the reminder to keep it simple.
I’ll post a few photos so I don’t clog up the chat with so much explaining. Each of these is a highly recessive phenotype. I apologize, normally Sunday is my trim day. They need their haircuts bad this week. 
My plan has always been to use the Sultan breeding method (1 male for several females). I have collected my desired mutant specimens and now seek to find a pleasant male to set off this journey of turning each variety into my own creation. While only 5 are pictured, here… there’s another Freakshow line which is called Menthol Skunk that I’ve also selected a keeper. All in all, the strains here are: BerryFreak, Menthol Skunk, Drunken Bastard, V9 Tiger, Giant Pur Pur, and finally Multileaf.
I plan on making F1 and BX1 in the same breeding cycle, so I will have options when I get there. I really don’t like the idea of selfing; guess I’m too old-fashioned. Males should breed with females in my opinion. I’ve seen the science. I know I’m wrong, but I don’t care. I believe male+female is the ideal breeding strategy. Haven’t seen any real proof [feminising, selfing] to show me that it’s worthwhile and not just a concept in a textbook. Maybe I’m being willfully ignorant idk. Either way though I know for certain these plants are going to teach me how to be a good breeder. So many recessive traits to express in future progeny… sounds like fun!
Man I must not have good stuff because cannabis has never done that for me 
The real rabbit hole here is that some of the mutants are CBD rich and some are THC rich. In my mind there’s no way of knowing all the potential combinations that my plants can breed. In the end, the only way I can judge them is by sampling them. I don’t have access to lab testing for specific cannabinoids so all if that will have to be judged in person and not in a lab. Who knows it may work out better this way 
This is probably the best response for my question. Thank you! I understand how to get my mutants to re-express in the F2 generation so I think that’s about as good as I can get without getting into a biology classroom.
I have definitely had thoughts of trying breeding with different plants, tomatoes being one of them. The problem that I have is my location. 47N is too north to ‘play around’ with stuff. Our growing season is like 4 months. If I lived down south I would have all of this underway already. Since I’m in the north I just do my cannabis indoors, and during the summer garden/plants stay outside. Hope this gives a little clarity on my situation.
Thank you for the conversation everyone. Truly appreciated.
Tbh, in your case I wouldn’t bet on F2s since in F2 you might need to pop alot of seeds to find what you are after. Since these traits you are after is double Recessive you need to treat them like autos. The fastest way is to sultar breed all you females. Self a couple of females of each line and a couple of males of each line. This way you will be able to find both a male and a female. Ive done this a couple of times and the first time I only selfed the males but since the male S1s only give you 33% females, it’s a pain to find a great female, so I reverse 3 males and 3 females. Five seedlings from each. In 2 generations you will have 100% of your double Recessive trait from you cross in seed form.
This is a simple procedure if you are only selecting for one trait. I had a plant with very very neon pink appearance. I was sus that this trait was double Recessive and after I got to F2 with the first cross I got proof that this was the case. 50 plants and not a single pink one. I popped some seeds from the F1 and selected 3 males which I reversed and boom Pink mothers and fathers, saved the pollen from the fathers, took some clones of the mother’s and smoke tested the mother’s. Picked the best one and crossed each male to a branch. Voila, all pink offspring. This is when I learned that using males and females is better when doing this selection.
Pz 
Yes. Hehe. Both. The actual understanding comprises a very small part of what you need. I’ve been living and breathing it for nigh 40 years and that’s not necessary. What is necessary is a modicum understanding of genetics, coupled with a very strong grasp of evaluation.
Starting with Clarke Thai circa mid '70’s not being sure about the driving force behind it’s intersexed traits all through og, chem, cookies, et al what we are talking about is like, Darwin on speed. Pass or fail, selfing is about 7 times more intensive than full sib selection. Both, failing and succeeding as quickly as possible are advantageous in regards to time management right. Let’s cut to the chase right.
@LonelyOC - Oh man you always have a way of unhinging my beliefs with well thought out responses! I’m not sure I fully understand your process. Am I selfing 3 males and 3 females from the initial F1 outcross? Then breeding together the self’d progeny to F2? Thus insuring 100% double recessive? I’m still trying to wrap my brain around this one. Bear with me.
@TomHill - I’m in awe. So much wisdom in so little words, thank you.
Thank you
Well, since you have one double Recessive freak and one normal plan. You will end up with alot of normal looking plants. So what selfing do is to “look through” the genetic makeup of the actual plant. You can do it to find those freak phenos again. But these will have other properties from the plant you crossed to. This is also how autos are made.
Pz
