I think the mechanism for these things are the same just selection for fiber or for drug. I believe that filial generation takes place when inbreeding and selection is done. The degeneration will go back to the average of both parents usually. Heck humans can inbreed indefinitely if needed. Egyptian Royalty did this I think. Ptolemy family?
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This was the conclusion I came to as well @HolyAngel. In fact, in hemp the male is just as useful as the female.
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Well I was under the impression that cannabis was monotypic; I find the problem is that the hemp for fiber has been used interchangeably that it makes it a bit confusing. Hemp is fiber or Sativa? All drug cannabis is either Tropical Indica or Afghani Indica? Suppose the Colombian/Mex would be a form of Tropical Indica just like the African types (Durbans) and such?
Using selective plant breeding, monoecious industrial hemp varieties have become more prevalent. Monoecious varieties exhibit both male and female reproductive organs on the same individual plant. Without plant breeding, intervention, and maintenance, hemp varieties would revert to their natural dioecious state.
âI did not know thisâ.
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Yes, I have done it.
I think so but I would need to check my notes.
I do know it works better as a gas/spray.
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Well I am thinking about cloning a male Thai that I have and putting clones in hydro and checking to see what amounts can trigger formation of females buds; have another male in the room and let it pollinate the plants that are in DWC? Might have to separate the buckets with differing levels of florel and see if it works?
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Check out this post with the paper and my response a post or two down from it
That paper seems to imply that hemp is a separate line of cannabis. And that hemp and sativa drug type both come from a common ancestor. And that broadleaf drug is an offshoot of narrow leaf drug(sativa) type.
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I found this interesting conclusion in a study of self-pollination where they saw the high fruit-setting populations have less pollen incompatibility and the low-fruit setting ones higher compatibility. That might explain differences between PI in worked drug-type cannabis selected for high budding site production vs hemp types or landraces with the genetics to produce more stalk and leaf and less fruit?
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@Cactus
06_Florel drench_GPN0413 FINAL.pdf (909.0 KB)
Effects of Ethephon on Terpenoids in Cannabis.pdf (376.6 KB)
etheph.pdf (93.3 KB)
ethephon (2).pdf (221.3 KB)
ethephon cannabis.pdf (585.3 KB)
From my notes.
Ethephon is pretty benign since it all turns to ethylene once absorbed into the plant, and Ethylene is produced naturally by all plants as they mature. Doesnât seem like thereâs anything else in the bottle, just ethephon and water - definitely no surfactants included since they say to add your own. In any case, latest I would suggest using is day 25 flower, and only then if you have a herm issue and need to prevent seeds.
Here are the following ways you can use it and the effects:
-
Late veg, a week before flipping. 30ml per gallon of spray, ph carefully to 4.5 (you will need to add a few capfuls of Ph up per gallon). This will encourage root growth, lateral branching, and will ensure almost 100% female plants! No joke, a male seed will flower out as a female plant if you do a few applications 7 days apart in veg.
-
Up to day 25 flowering, 30Ml gallon, pH 4.5. This is to reverse a herm and to prevent seeding out any other plants in the garden as a result. Herm prevention / reversal is pretty magical - the bananas will shrivel up and fall off by themselves. You may need two applications 5 days apart if the first doesnât quite do it. Seed prevention works well too, I sprayed a room that had been pretty well pollinated by a herm I didnât see until it was too late, and only got a few seeds once everything was finished up. This does slow bud development a bit IMO, so I suggest only using if flower if absolutely necessary.
-
You could supposedly spray 60-90Ml/gallon in mid-late flower and get a lot of the leaves to drop off, chemical defoliation basically (ethephon in stronger concentrations is used as a defoliant for cotton crops before harvest, since it causes the leaves to senesce and drop). However, I donât suggest spraying anything late in flower - this is just theoretical and I have not tried this. However, I did spray at 60ml (double strength) in early flower recently as an experiment (Day 7), and there were definitely fewer leaves and shorter plants as compared to the control plants. Actually a perfect amount of leaves with no manual defoliation needed as compared to control plants which became a jungle. In fact now that I think about it, all the times I have used ethephon in flower the resulting bud has been incredibly easy to trim - wayyy fewer leaves. So much so that after clipping the buds off the stalks when dry, I remember thinking to myself that it already looked roughly trimmed and just needed a clean-up pass.
Things to be mindful of when applying ethephon:
- This is a strong hormone, pay careful attention to your dosing - more is NOT better and will harm your plants.
- You must pH the spray to 4.5 (using pH up). Do this slowly and carefully since it can be finnicky to hit the sweet spot. You also need to add a few drops of a spreader/sticker (dish soap, coco-wet, etc). Suggest spraying with lights off.
- I usually get temporary leaf drooping for about three days after applying, then they perk back up. Just something to be aware of and not freak out about.
- Donât overspray, since ethephon dripping into your soil/medium can harm your roots. Spray until it just starts to run off the leaves then move on.
- Always wait at least 5 days (7 is better) before re-applying ethephon. Applying more frequently may harm your plants.
No clear evidence of toxic effects of exposure of humans or animals to ethylene has been reported.
However, it has been shown in studies, both in animals and in humans that inhaled ethylene can be
metabolised to ethylene oxide. This metabolism is of concern since ethylene oxide is a potent alkylating
agent, a carcinogen and a genotoxicant, and hence more toxic than ethylene. About 5 - 10 % of ethylene inhaled by rats has been reported to be converted to ethylene oxide, depending upon the concentration of ethylene in the inhaled air.
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GOLD!! Thanks for the data!!
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This is a summary of the math ect. from the past.
The best dosage rate I have is 30 ml of a 3.9% solution per gallon.
That was florel.
I have ethephon
I have a 21.7 solution.
So I divided 21.7 by 3.9 and got 5.564
So that determines the my 21.7 solution is 5.564 times as strong as the 3.9 solution.
Then I took 30 ml divided it by 5.564 and got 5.391.
So that would be 5.391 ml per gallon.
I then divide 5.391 by 3.78/l per gallon.
So the result is 1.426 ml per liter maximum.
What I have learned so far:
I would start with 1-3 drops per gallon and slowly move up to get the final usage strength.
Adjust to 4.5 pH. Use within 4 hours, spray degrades quickly
Optic foliar switch says
Spray plants on day 7 & 17 of bloom cycle or at the first sign of flower stress
Optic Foliar SWITCH allows your plants to transition into bloom, by preventing and combating key stress factors that can delay the formation of bloom sets. By utilizing Optic Foliar SWITCH early in the first 2 weeks of bloom; growers are then able to ensure that their plants will begin to form flower sites and maximize flower growth. Optic Foliar Switch Nutrient has been shown to stop male flower maturity in plants that exhibit male traits i.e., hermaphroditic plants. Optic Foliar Switch has a fast reversal of action against already existing male flowers in addition to preventing male flowers from forming. Optic Foliar SWITCH assures no loss in growth, quality or yield!
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Incompatibility
Among hermaphroditic plant species there are several genetically controlled systems for enforcing cross pollination that operate through the incompatibility of pollen and style. The incompatibility reaction appears to be a biochemical process under rather simple genetic control. The incompatibility process can operate at any stage between pollination and fertilization. In rye, the cabbage, and the radish, incompatible pollen usually fails to germinate, and if it does germinate, the pollen tube fails to penetrate the stigma. In some species of this type, the inhibition is lost if the stigmatic surface is removed, showing that the incompatibility reaction is localized in the stigma. In other species, incompatible pollen germinates, and the pollen tube grows down the style, but so slowly that it rarely reaches the ovary in time to effect fertilization. The rate of growth of incompatible pollen tubes can be influenced by the background genotype in which the major gene (or genes) governing the incompatibility reaction operates. Also, when there are several alleles at the incompatibility locus, these different alleles are not necessarily equally effective in preventing incompatible matings. In a few instances, incompatible pollen tubes have been found to grow at the same rate as compatible tubes, but nevertheless are not able to effect fertilization.
Incompatibility is very common in the plant kingdom. About a quarter-century ago, E. M. East estimated that it occurs in more than 3000 species among 20 families of flowering plants. Subsequently many additional cases were found, leading Lewis (1954) to the con-
SYSTEMS OF POLLINATION CONTROL 239
elusion that Eastâs estimate was much too low. Lewis attributes the fragmentary knowledge of incompatibility to the fact that breeding tests are required for its detection. Dioecy and nonsynchronoUs develÂŹ opment of staminate and pistillate floral organs, on the other hand, are easily detected morphological characters often recorded in taxoÂŹ nomic treatises. Incompatibility can be as efficient as strict dioecy in enforcing cross pollination and it has the distinct advantage that every plant bears seed and thereby contributes directly to the propagation of the species.
Classification
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What would you suggest for titration of fluid sample to ph of 4.5. Are we looking at >750 ppm in foliar spray?
I am pretty sure I just used Phosphoric acid.
Honestly, I do not remember how that worked out.
I thought it was in the notes, Hmmm?
You may have to do some math.
BTW
I had help with the math above, which is why I wrote it down as I didâŚLOL
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Well you gave me everything I need so now it is time to play around with it and see what happens 
thanks for info Shag 
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I found 19 ml per liter is 750 ppm
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The metric is disease.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1369526621000406
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You control it on the back end this way.You want to know one of my secrets?Ive been blending things together in joints to kind of see what the results would kind of be like if I actually crossed the two types of smoke in a seed run.The results are pretty similar.I mixed some Chem 91 and gorilla glue in a joint before I grew out thr cross I was gifted.Smoke was very similar in effect.Only difference was the gifted cross has this warmfeeling that spreads over your body making everything all warm and fuzzy and sounds sound more beautiful listening to music is a delight
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Was that florel or ethephon?
And thank you for that I will jot it down else I forget⌠
I think that was what other canna folks were recommending too.
That may be too strong, but I would imagine you will soon find out if it is or not.
My experience wasâŚ
To rid female plants of male flowers I use 1-3 drops per gallon.
I have not found the proper amount for reversing a male as of yet.
Some seem harder to turn than others too.
I had mixed results so nothing good to share.
I did get males to turn at a pretty low strength I wrote it down but lost those notes.
Also, spray the node sites and stems, try not to spray the leaves at all.
Cover the soil/medium or just donât get any on/in there.
A minimum amount is not a big deal.
A low-strength solution sprayed often seems to work best.
Well, it seems to kill the plant slower anywayâŚLOL
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Hey Shag I am going to follow your technique and just go from there. All the data is there and now I can get ready to do it here in a little bit. Should be fun!
Thanks for the info, knew you would show me a thing or three!
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Oh wow! This is of great help to me considering my height restrictions. Thanks for posting this!
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