Adventures in Hydro #2 - LP Aero/NFT mash-up - or - switching to HPA?

GMTA :slight_smile:
Ive been wondering the exact same thing the last couple of days. With such a tall root chamber, Im sure there is some difference between the temps at the top and bottom. Plus, as you mentioned, there will be some heat leaking down through the foam cover with that large a temp differential between the tent and the chamber.

I am planning to move the temp sensor later today. Right now its in the middle of the chamber height wise, and off to one side. Im going to move it up to the top of the chamber, right at the base of the net pot, and see what it reads there.

Chamber temps have been very consistent as long as I dont have the front foam cover off. It stays between 68F and 70F with the front cover on. Yesterday, I lowered the target temp, so its down to 67-69, but I still want to move the sensor up.

As far as going the clone rout, I considered that, but I agree with @SuperiorBuds. It will add too much time. I think Im just going to start the seed in some perlite, then transplant it when it gets enough exposed stem to put in the puck. That will stress is some as the roots adapt to the aero chamber, but there would be stress cloning as well.

I was surprised when the same thing happened on my first hydro grow. I had major root rot and still had a larger yield than in my soil grow.

Lets hope we both have better root luck this time! :smiley:

This might be a good idea I think - maybe. Ive seen other people do that exact thing in LPA setups, so it should work fine for us as well, but you will need to up the flow early on Im sure. I would also top feed for a while.

The only problem I see is air getting through the netpot/hydroton and causing air pruning. A possible fix would be to cover the top of the pot with something (panda film?) that would keep the air from getting through, but still allow the plant to grow.

Not sure about the tree trunk problem. Ive never grown a tree :slight_smile:

1 Like

I wonder - would the trunk just develop, get wide, up on top of the hydroton? I cant remember for sure, but I think I have seen pics of trees in hydroton in Ebb/Flow setups.

1 Like

Bingo!!

The temp in the middle of the chamber was at 68.5 and falling when I went to move the temp probe. I moved it to the bottom of the chamber first, and it read 66.4. Then I moved it to the net pot, and it read 74.6!! Id bet those temps at the top could have been even higher when the heater was on full. I have to say, I was not expecting that large a temp differential.

Thank you for the suggestion to check that. I might not have actually done it if not for your comment :slight_smile:

2 Likes

I think that the brown root rot has been throwing me off - a lot.

At first, I assumed the browning was because the top of the roots was not getting enough water. That initial - wrong - assumption has kept me from letting the roots dry out much, and resulted in too wet roots - especially towards the lower sections. Even after I found the light leaks/air leaks, I was still thinking along the lines of it being too dry at the top.

Then, I decided, screw it, I want to see what happens when I start increasing the OFF time. I had established that the 0.4 seconds was a good ON time, but had not gone over about 55 seconds OFF. So, the last two days I have been slowly increasing the OFF time. Im now up to 80 seconds OFF time - and the roots look better every day.

That gives me an on/off ratio of .005. Earlier, I was at .0125. At .0125, the flow rate was aprox 0.7 gallons per day or a bit more. The flow rate now is about 0.28 gallons per day. I did not expect to get to that low a number, so I am very happy.

The root rot has slowed down, but not stopped. I lowered the temp in the chamber to 68 max, and Ive added more chlorine twice, in the last three days. First at 3PPM, then the last time was at 6PPM, which is pretty hi. I even did a direct spray bottle application on the roots with some chlorine at around 70 PPM, but none of that has killed it. The plant seemed to droop a tiny bit, but I saw no other effects.

From what I have read, this is not unusual. Root rot can be very difficult to kill once its established. I dont feel like pulling the plant, cutting off all the brown, and dunking the roots in a hi concentration of chlorine. Im too close to ending this part of the experiment to go to that much trouble.

So, earlier today I decided to try some of my Southern Ag Garden Friendly Fungicide. Its the same stuff as Hydro Guard, but about 1 million times more concentrated. I doubt this initial treatment will do much. I think there is still too much bleach in the system for it to live very long. I will re-treat again tomorrow and the next day, and see if it helps or not.

In the mean time, here are some pics of the roots from two days ago, and tonight. The roots had looked pretty much the same for several days, but once I got over 60 seconds of OFF time, they really started to branch out to the sides, and have slowed way down as far as going to the bottom of the chamber.

From the looks of things, Im sure I can extend the OFF time a good bit more.

And the fuzzies are doing great.

The plant seems to be happy with the situation too. Its growing well, the color is good, and the leaves are getting big. The older leaves that were badly yellowed are even looking a lot better. The stems were pretty purple, but I started adding a bit more CalMag and the stems on the new growth is looking pretty good.

I wish I knew what strain this was. There isnt much stretch at all, but I cant tell if thats normal or not.

Still, this is a long ways from perfect. I was looking through my notes and ran across the root pic I copied from an old HPA thread on another forum. His roots look much better than mine as far as the amount of fuzzy hairs, and the over all look, but this pic is late in his grow, after he had worked through several major issues. Not unlike I have been doing :slight_smile:

Other than waiting to see how the Southern Ag GFF does, and seeing how far I can push the OFF times, Im pretty much done with this baby.

I went ahead and started the C99 seed.

I soaked one seed for 12 hours in tap water, then stuck it in a damp paper towel, and put that in a zip-lock and stuck it in the tent. I just checked it, and it has popped already - after just 11 hours in the paper towel. Ive never had one pop that fast. I will probably start it in a small hempy bucket of perlite tomorrow if the root is sticking out enough.

As soon as this new victim, er ah new baby, gets big enough, I will put it in the system. Im guessing another week or so for that.

4 Likes

Ive been trying to find the upper limit for the OFF time in relation to my current 0.4 seconds of ON time, but its proving difficult.

The problem is back to that brown crap. I think this stuff is probably brown algae rather than root rot, or at least the bulk of it is. I dont smell anything bad in the rez or the roots. Plus, bleach and beneficial bacteria seem to have pretty much no effect on it.

I went up to 90 seconds OFF, and started to see some tips shriveling up and dying back. However, going back to a shorter OFF time has not stopped the shriveling.

Im left wondering if its the brown crap killing those tips - its mostly happening right near the edges of the brown - or is it lack of mist? I doubt its the mist. There are still droplets that can be seen on the roots, so Im leaning toward the brown crap as the culprit, but cant be sure.

The plant up top still has good color, but it drooping more every day - as the brown spreads. The roots at the top of the chamber are starting to shrink up too, while the roots in the middle keep spreading out to the sides even wider, and the lower, long roots have mostly stopped growing towards the bottom.

Basically, the roots are doing great - except where the brown is.

Im going to give this one more day to see if the experiment with two days of 12/12 will make it show sex early. It will be a week tomorrow. So far, no signs of anything. I thought maybe it was showing female, but looking closer with the scope says not yet.

1 Like

Here is how they look today. Notice the top part is shrinking in where its brown, but the middle is spreading horizontally very nicely.

3 Likes

So this is the exact opposite of what Iā€™ve been experiencing - the roots above the DWC levels were fine and white and fuzzy, but everything in contact with the solution was brown and slimy and shrinking, effectively limiting my root space to the size of the net pot.

1 Like

Interesting. Im now sure this crap started before I transplanted it to the chamber.

Looking back at the old pics, there was green algae and some browning on the roots when I took them out of the perlite.

In my case, it has just continued to spread down from the top, where it started. I had been feeding that plant from the same rez while it was in the dixie cup, so it probably started in the rez.

Maybe yours is/was starting in the water buckets?

3 Likes

Im trying out a new free image viewer/editor by FastStone. I hate the windows options. Ive been using their image re-sizer for quite a while, and I love it.

Anyway, I discovered it has just the thing for tracking growth of roots, or plants - an image comparison tool that lets you lay one image over another and switch back and forth quickly. Ive been taking root pics every few hours, and its very hard to see changes when you are seeing them that close together, but this tool helps a lot.

Add this to the GIF maker, and you have a cool tool to track changes.

Here is a GIF of two images exactly 24 hours apart - this morning and yesterday morning.

I am really disappointed about the brown crap. I think Im finally just getting this really dialed in, and the brown is killing the roots. You can see how the middle parts are spreading wider - which is exactly what you want to happen - while the rotten parts are shrinking. Close-ups show how the brown is killing off the fine hairs and making the roots shrink where ever it spreads.

.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to stop it, so last night I unplugged the pump, and disconnected the rez. Im now soaking the rez, and all filter parts in highly concentrated pool shock. The plant is still getting misted with whats left in the accumulator tank. At the current flow rate, it will last probably another few days at least - maybe a week.

Im not going to let it go that long. The new C99 seed is growing fast and should be ready to transplant in another few days I think. Probably by tonight I will pull this poor baby and start the cleaning process for the chamber and the rest of the system.

My new nozzles, with the smaller 0.02 orifice, and the stronger ADV springs, are coming in the mail today, so I will be playing with them after I get the system cleaned.

More to comeā€¦

2 Likes

Almost forgot - the plant up top looks great other than some slight leaf droop. Color is good but getting slightly darker the last few days - after I went longer on the OFF times and it started to spread wide. I checked the TDS between the IN/OUT probes, and the IN was right at 500, but the OUT was up to 697! Its never been that big a difference. That tells me that Im too hi on the EC, which is 0.9. There is also a LOT less run off collecting in the small container I have under the chamber. Between the longer spray times, and the larger root mass having more time to drink more between spray cycles, less is getting to the bottom.

1 Like

Iā€™m pretty sure you are right. Looking at how I prepared them I think I have not sanitized well enough. Sure I ran the system with chlorine, but I did not take apart every fitting, dod not soak the hoses, etc, etc.

I should know better too, because when we brew beer holy shit do we ever sanitize the living bajesus out of everything with chlorinated TSP, h2o2, isopropanol. I guess same applies to hydro, but unfortunately no airlocks.

1 Like

No reason why not.

If you had a UV steriliser on the airline that pumps the air in and maintained positive pressure in your rootzone, similar to maintaining negative pressure in the tent, all the air inside would be sterile and a very limited possibility of any infection making it in to there. If it was sealed well enough you could even fit an airlock which would double as a leak checker.

You may have to have something like a silicone sealing ring around the stalk for that though.

If you have an infected environment it would stop that infection making to to your roots.

Does the process of HPA make your nutes sterile?

2 Likes

I guess you are right, as you said, sterilize the air and pass a ton of it under positive pressure. Anything is possible, just a matter of time + resources + effort. Maybe Iā€™ll try that on the next round ā€“ blow through a UV and HEPA, seal the net pots. Or try first with bennies, then see. Sterilizing air and keeping a positive pressure in the root zone is a lot of work; and makes maintenance a bigger chore still. Maybe one day.

Not sure about HPA sterilization - thatā€™s @anon32470837ā€™s department, iā€™m just bubble-curious

1 Like

I just recently read the any bacterial, or living bennies are killed by passing through an HP sprayer. Dont know if thats actually true or not, but it seems reasonable that they would not like being rapidly pressurized/de-pressurized and broken up into micro sized droplets. The same post suggested that you should never filter bennies smaller than 400 microns - Im at 80 microns. It looks like my only option for bennies would be to hand spray on the roots with a small spray bottle.

So far, that isnt helping with my brown crap, and neither did the chlorine. Thats whats making me think my issue is probably more an algae thing. Algae can be much harder to kill. Plus there are apparently dozens if varieties, most of which are unaffected by bennies, and many of which are even UV resistant. My variety seems to be bleach resistant as well. Tough crap.

I think my only/best option is to do my best to prevent it in the first place. I dont see any good way to do an airlock or positive pressure thing with my setup - at least, not in any cost effective way.

On a different noteā€¦
I going to have some fun experiments coming up soonā€¦

I also got the new nozzles today from Ecologic. They are NOT the same as the ones from Aeromist, but the springs, and the little rubber balls may be interchangeable. I will test that when I pull the baby and open up the system.

The biggest difference between them is that the Aeromist nozzles are whats called PIN nozzles. There is a long pin on one end of the spring that goes up into the nozzle head. That pin forces the water to turn 90 deg before it exits. I think this is what creates the hollow cone. It also makes the nozzles easier to plug up. The gaps around the pins is very tight.

The swivels work on either one, so thats good.

Im going to test the new ones for flow rate, how strong the springs actually are, and to see if they are hollow or full cone, and how the hang time looks. Then I will decide which ones to use. I expect to start that tomorrow or the next day.

The Aeromist ā€˜pinā€™ nozzle is the lower one. You can see how it fits into the nozzle in the second pic.

2 Likes

Lets all take a moment to commemorate the passing of another brave seedling who gave her life in the name of science. Or to satisfy my curiosity anyway :slight_smile:

I really hated to do that. She was looking great up top, but the roots were definitely getting worse. The interesting thing is, they were also getting better in some ways. The brown crap was killing all the fine root hairs where ever it spread, but the roots were really starting to spread horizontally at the same time. When I pulled them, there was zero slime feeling and no bad smell. They just smelled kind of like fresh cut hay. Im even more convinced what I had was not root rot, but some form of brown algae.

So, after a moment of silence, its onward and forward! I have cleaned and sterilized the system. After cleaning the rez thoroughly, I re-filled it with a super strong pool shock solution and let that run through the system all day long. I set the timer to 30 seconds ON and 1 second OFF and let it empty the accumulator tank several times - spraying into the root chamber. I want it sterilized too. Everything should be good to go now.

The next step is to test the new nozzles, and do a few small tweaks. Im going to make 110% sure there are no air or light leaks, tidy up some wiring and tubing, etc. Sfter the nzzles testing I may raise the nozzles a bit higher in the chamber, but wont make that decision until I look at the mist/hang time videos and do some ā€˜cardboard tubeā€™ testing.

More to comeā€¦

1 Like

Well, the new nozzles are not getting off to a good start. The springs are supposed to open at 70 PSI, but they dont open at all up to 120 PSI.

I called the supplier and they are sending me a new batch.

In the mean time, I swapped out the 35 PSI springs from the Aeromist nozzles and they work ok. Still too low an opening pressure, but better than nothing.

Fisrt impression on these is they produce about the same mist. Havent finished the actual testing though. I thiink they will be at least a little less prone to clogging, but that will take time to be sure.

Hi Larry, some interesting experiments youā€™ve got going here! Thereā€™s a product called sm90 that you might want to look into. Itā€™s sold as a ā€˜wetting agentā€™, but Iā€™ve always found that itā€™s great for keeping roots, water lines etc clean.

Itā€™s pretty cheap, and personally I wouldnā€™t run any type of hydro/aquaponics without it. It smells really nice too lol.

ā€œBenefits:
ā€¢ Improves spray coverage in soil and on plants
ā€¢ Lengthens contact and control of sprays
ā€¢ Increases the speed of moisture penetration in soils and growing media
ā€¢ Reduces surface tension of spray nozzles and irrigation systemsā€

I think it could be useful in regards to your quest to have a true nutrient film. Anyways, just a suggestionā€¦I swear I donā€™t work for the sm90 company lol

2 Likes

Interesting suggestion. @Northern_Loki did some experiments/testing using yucca as a surficant in his hydro build. I cant remember the details off hand, but I think he found that it increased dissolved O2 in his system. Maybe he will up-date us in on his results.

This looks like its the active ingredients:

OIL OF CORIANDER 1%
MODIFIED CANOLA OIL 3%
TRIETHANOLAMINE 5%

Im going to do some more reading on that subject for sure now that you brought it up and refreshed my memory.

Thanks!

1 Like

I just finished flow testing on the new EchoLogic nozzles. The results surprised me, so I re-did the tests on the Aeromist nozzles, and on the black plastic nozzles as requested by @SuperiorBuds.

I tested all three sets of nozzles back to back using the exact same timing (0.5 seconds ON/1sec OFF x 50 cycles), pressure = 100PSI. I also used the same 35 PSI springs and rubber stoppers in both tests. I just swapped them from the aeromist to the echologic nozzles.

EchoLogic = 0.0118 gallons/min = 0.708 gallons/hour

AeroMist = .0.0196 gal/min = 1.176 gal.hour

Black plastic = 0.26 gal/min = 15 gal.hour!!!

The new EchoLogic are the clear winners, and the plastic ones suck big time. To be fair, the black plastic are being run at their max pressure, so they would be better performers at 80 PSI, but still much higher flow rate. Too hi for drain to waste, but they might be fine for a re-circulating system - especially in larger chambers.

Its hard to judge for sure, and there isnt a big difference, but the echologic seem to have a slightly better hang time than the Aeromist nozzles. So, they win the nozzle war. Im hoping the plants agree :slight_smile:

If the replacement springs get here in time, and actually work, I will re-test with them in place. They should lower flow rates just a tad - maybe.

Forgot to add - the new EchoLogic nozzles are .020 orifice. The Aeromist are .024 orifice. That is probably why the lower flow rate.

1 Like

And it would explain the smaller droplets (better hang).

Did you do spray pattern tests with them on the cardboard tube?

1 Like