Adventures in Hydro #2 - LP Aero/NFT mash-up - or - switching to HPA?

That works.

Well, unfortunately I couldn’t tell you off-hand as I can’t remember all of the details. Though, >=1:1 is probably a safe target. More if there are lots of solids in the source water. At 1L/minute, that’s about 2:1 for 160 GPD. Which I feel is a conservative number.

3M has a free tool for designing RO systems. It’s meant for commercial/large industrial systems but it does give one the feel for the parameters.

Hmm, it’s late, thinking out loud. One nice thing is that you are starting from a clean slate so you’ll know precisely what’s in it once you start adding salts. Once it’s dialed in it should be repeatable. RO can be wild before it’s has some buffering, though.

Using up/down on it’s own isn’t really adding any buffering capacity to the RO (if they consist of strong acids/bases). You need a weak acid/base + a strong acid/base complex to create a buffer. Typically, a nutrient formulation should be enough to provide limited buffering capacity right around where you’d want it. Kelp / humic acid has been suggested to provide natural buffering.

Speaking on pure RO, CO2 from the atmosphere will still dissolve and will cause some PH change.If it’s pure RO, there are no carbonates. The direction should be down. IF, however, there are cabonates in solution, a buffering system is created.
Once the water is aerated, the CO2 is outgassed and the PH should rise back toward “neutral”. Some folk will add tap water simply to get some of the carbonate buffering back. In your case though, that probably would work against what you are trying to solve. And, it sounds like you have the opposite direction of PH drift, here.

Is the tank pressurized? Added nutrients into solution, I assume? Are you testing this in your current system? Maybe try some PH tests outside of the system for a sanity check?

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Yeah, I didnt see any increase in the clean water flow when I reduced the waste flow from 1000 ml/min down to almost zero flow, so I didnt see any harm in going that hi - other than wasting some water.

I will check out the 3M site!

Since Im running fairly low EC levels, I guess my nutes are not doing a great job of buffering. I’ll have to look into the kelp/humic acid thing if this doesnt get solved.

I wonder if some carbonates and/or dissolved Co2 is/has made it past the RO membrane? I can see that raising the PH over time, but why would it be so much worse/faster now than before?

The real head scratcher to me is why the water in the accumulator tank goes up in PH the instant it gets pumped in?

The rez has my nutes + Calmag at EC 1.1. I just spent the last 1/2 hour messing with this. I PHed the rez back down to 5.6 about 2 hrs ago. It had gone back up to 5.8-5.9, so I added more acid to get down to 5.6 again.

Then I pumped some into the tank - which was empty - let it sit for a minute and drew some out. That tank water was now at 5.8. So I drained the tank, and added some back in at 5.6 and waited. A few minutes later, its back up to 5.8. I have repeated that at least 8 times in the last 1/2 hour and the water jumps up the instant its pumped into the tank.

It did not do this before, so Im at a loss.

I will try some “out of the system” tests and see whats up with that. Great idea.

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Correction, weak acid/base + it’s conjugate salt. Sorry, tired.

https://scienceinhydroponics.com/2010/08/chemical-buffers-in-hydroponics-what-is-the-best-cheapest-buffer.html

Something of an advertisement but has useful info:
http://growmeduniversity.com/download/White%20Paper%20PH%20English%20Nov2013.pdf

And, a patent (can’t believe such a thing would be patentable):

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Thanks for those links. I need to re-read them a few times, but I didnt see any specific products/quantities, etc - other than if you buy AN nutes you’re all fixed :slight_smile:

My tests say Im screwed. I PHed everything back down to 5.5 lest night and set aside samples in small containers. It appears that this is the same thing that was going on before with my water - but much accelerated.

The nute water sample that just sat, undisturbed for several hours went from 5.6 to 5.9.

The water in the rez - that gets circulated by a submerged pump 1 minute out of every 10, went from 5.6 - 6.4

The water that was pumped into the accumulator tank went from 5.6 to 6.0 instantly last night. By this morning it had also climbed to 6.4.

So, putting the water under pressure instantly raises the PH, and stirring/aerating it also raises the PH to the same level over a few hours.

Leaving it sit slows the process, but it still goes up.

Somehow, switching to RO has made the nute water really really want to be at 6.4 PH. So, if I have read those links correctly, I either have a C02 problem and/or a carbonate problem, and somehow the RO is making it worse.

I have no clue what to do at this point. I cant really afford to buy AN nutes, and so far I dont see any specific details on which exact chemicals to buy or what ratios to mix to create my own buffers.

At this point, I have added a TON of acid and potassium hydroxide. Im worried Im getting up to toxic levels, so Im going to dump the rex and start over.

Im going to try the RO again. I know the initial fill left some well water in the system in the tubes, filters, accumulator tank etc. Im guess it was maybe 1/2 - 3/4 a liter at most though.

The only other straw I can grasp at is my PH down mix was made with my well water, so I will mix up a new batch with RO water and see if that helps.

If not, I guess I will have to go back to well water. The PH also went up with it, but it was manageable. This isnt.

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Thanks again @Northern_Loki. Ive been reading about buffers off and on much of today and my head is spinning. Chemistry was always one of my least favorite subjects - and its now I remember why I hated it so much :wink:

Ive wasted a bunch of time reading LOOOOOONG detailed articles only to find out the people who wrote it are actually just talking about how to CHANGE rather than “buffer” it so that the solution resists change. AAARRRGGGHHH!

Lots of talk about using phosphates vrs carbonates vrs citric vrs sodium vrs etc etc - but no actual products to use or any way to calculate amounts etc. Also, lots of warnigs about kepping concentrations low or you kill the plant - but no actuall way to figure that out. I did find a buffer calculator after following other links on that site you listed above, but it assumes you know some basic chemistry already.

In short, I still have no clue how to make a safe, effective buffer in the PH range I want.

By the way, that patent application is a masterpiece of misdirection and obfuscation. This is just one of many similar paragraphs. How the heck could this get a patent when it has no specifics on whats used?

In an embodiment, the pH buffering means is a pH buffering agent. In an embodiment, the pH buffering agent comprises a buffer selected from the group consisting of phosphate buffers, aquarium buffers, 2-[N-morpholino]ethanesulfonic acid (MES), and mixtures thereof. In an embodiment, the pH buffering agent comprises a sodium phosphate buffer or a potassium phosphate buffer. In an embodiment, the pH buffering agent comprises monopotassium phosphate and/or dipotassium phosphate.

Anyway, Ive been running more tests.

I mixed up some RO water with just my PH down adjusted to 3.7. It has stayed at 3.7 no matter what.

I mixed up to RO with my PH up Potasium Hydroxide, and it was almost stable. Over about an hour it dropped from 10.3 to 10.0, but has stayed stable since then.

So then I mixed those two solution to make a batch at 5.8PH. That mix immediately started climbing at a steady pace until it got to about 6.7 about 30 minutes later. Then over the next 30 minutes it dropped down to 6.5 and was finally stable.

Shaking or aerating seemed to make no difference to either one.

Then I added another small amount of my ph down and dropped it back to 3.7 - where it has stayed for one hour.

Today, the PH in the rez and tank have still been climbing, but not as fast or as far.

So - Im thinking - maybe - my potassium hydroxide ph-up stuff is just too strong? Or maybe I added too much? By the way, KOH is one of the ingredients used in some “buffers” I found on-line, but not a common one.

Im going to dilute the batch of ph up I made by 1/2 and try again with smaller initial doses.

Im also going to make up a new batch of ph down.but using RO water. I dont really think this is necessary, but Im going to do it anyway.

I just had a thought - which might be dangerous - “something” is making my PH go up. Maybe its the potassium hydroxide or maybe its a C02 issue or maybe still some dissolved carbonates from the well.

BUT - its for sure NOT plants or roots that are doing it. Im running drain to waste, so the water in the rez and the entire system never touches the roots until its sprayed out the nozzles. That water is then tossed out.

So - maybe Ive just been using too much PH up and/or not waiting long enough for the C02 to balance out.

So, this time I decided to add just a hair of General Hydroponics PH up (not my diy potassium hydroxide mix) - about 2 ml for 15 gallons - and some cal mag. That locked the PH in at about 5.8. After 30 minutes, I saw no change in PH, so I added my Mega Crop to EC 1.1. PH is now at 5.5 and holding so far, but its only been about 50 minutes. Still, before, the raise in ph started pretty much instantly, so Im have hope…

I’m not sure if you were using CalMag before but I have always found RO water to be pH unstable. As soon as I add some CalMag it stabilises.

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Thanks for jumping in! Yeah, I have been using cal-mag every time I fill the rez.

WooHoo!! - maybe :slight_smile:

Its been about 3 hours and the PH in the rez is staying where I put it! The water under pressure in the tank is also holding, but it 0.1 higher than the rez.

When I first pumped some of the new mix into the accum tank, the PH jumped up immediately. So I did several partial fills and drains of the accum tank. Im thinking there must have been some old water trapped in folds of the diaphragm or something?

Anyway, after several fill/drain cycles, the PH in the tank also seems to be holding. Its still up that 0.1, but I can easily live with that.

The three main things that changed this time were:

  1. I used the GH PH UP instead of my DIY version and
  2. I only added 2 ml to the 15 gallon rez.
  3. I used zero PH Down.

Im wishing I had added the Mega Crop before I added the PH Up. Now I dont know for sure how much PH change the 2 ml actually did.

Or maybe I do have a rough idea… I decided that 5.5 was a hair too low to leave the tank, so I added 1 more ml of PH Up. That took it from 5.5 to 5.8. Which is something of an over shoot. I wanted 5.6. So, the nute mix is still very sensitive to anything that trys to change the PH, but it seems to be stable when left alone…at least so far.

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Well crap. The first three hours were perfect, but after my little nap, PH is up again in the rez and the tank.

Well crap.

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To which extent is it up? Way out of optimal range, or somewhat acceptable?

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Found it. I remember reading something on RIU about buffering, so here it is. I have taken the liberty to exclude bullshit. This was posted by a user fatman7475 (he deserves credit, great post imo). Useful, and is the reason I usually use a solid dose of calmag in my almost ro-quality tap water (0-20ppm tds).

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Yea, that’s how most patent lawyers talk.

They are using standard buffering chemistry. MES is a buffer. Mono-potassium phosphate + Di-potassium phosphate forms a buffer (this one you can formulate a nutrient solution that provides both nutrients and has buffering capacity).

Using a strong acid and/or a strong base (potassium hydroxide) allows you to adjust the PH but it does not add buffering capacity by themselves (it removes capacity for a buffer with a single pKa, more on that in a moment). What you’re probably looking at, with the addition of a strong base, is the adjustment of the PH with the buffering complex occurring in solution (that is the other side of the buffer is there already). Adjusting the ratios allow some tuning.

Going deeper:
A buffer is not “rock steady” at certain PH. Instead it adds “resistance” to changes in PH.
A buffering complex has a pKa value(s). This is the point of maximal buffer capacity and is the key to the buffer PH compatibility. As you add an acid or a base to a buffered solution, the PH will begin to deviate away from the pKa. The buffering complex will resist a change in the PH as the buffering compounds will react with any added acid or base. The further away from the pKa you move, by adding more acid/base to the solution, the faster and more dramatic the PH change will be (you have less buffering capacity, one component of the complex is being used up). Eventually you reach a point where there is no longer any buffering available.

Many of the buffers in literature have pKa values that would be useless for horticulture. The general rule is you can adjust the PH of a buffered solution ~ +/- 1 PH and still retain some buffering capacity. Some buffers will have a pKa that’s greater than one PH away from our target PH. Since the adjustment would need to be > 1 PH, those aren’t terribly useful for us.

The few safe buffers that have a pKa near the PH we’d be interested in, can also be tuned by adding a strong acid/base within +/- 1 PH and still have some buffering available.

To formulate a buffer, you’d want the pKa to be as close to your target PH as possible (for maximum capacity). Then you can tweak it with a strong acid or a strong base. Of course, the buffer chemistry needs to be compatible with plants and humans.

When it comes to quantity, the more you add the more buffering capacity you have. Add less, less capacity. Sometime you’ll have no choice but to have a non-optimal capacity by adding less than you would like.
But, be assured, you are providing some buffering.

Before trying to determine quantities, we need to look at reality. The reality is that the chemistry of a complex solution is, ugh, complex. The environment, the biological activity, the chemistry of added nutrients, etc are going to affect the solution PH. You may have many unexpected buffering complexes being formed and, overtime, reactions in the chemistry can change the behavior of the buffers. Buffering is not an end-all solution. What is does provide is more stability, if you have the buffers with a pKa that matches your goals. Expect some drift.

Now let’s consider:

We have some RO water and two chemicals. The chemicals are some sort of a strong acid and a strong base. If we add the acid in copious amount we’ll end up at some plateau that similar to the PH of the acid itself. Likewise for a strong base. The left portion of the graphic is lots of acid while the right show lots of base.

If we start “titrating” the solution by adding small amounts of the base to an acid rich solution, for example, we’ll pass through the point of equivalence. This is where the effect of the acid is equivalent to that of the base(H+ and OH- are equal = PH of 7). Small changes in the quantities of either the acid or base will cause a rapid and wild swing in the PH (the slope is large).

Ok, so let’s look at a weak acid and a strong base:

Starting at the left side of the graphic, we have some RO water with a weak acid added. As we begin to add a strong base, you’ll note that the PH is rising. But it rises quickly, then slowly, then a wild swing. The point where the PH slows is the buffering region (note the pKa). In this buffering region you can add strong acids or bases and the solution will resist PH change.

And, this is the problem we face:
We use RO to remove the unknown chemistry and any other stuff we’d like to avoid. This leaves us with a relatively blank slate with neither an excess of H+ or OH-. It allows us to build upon a procedure to develop a solution that is repeatable by reducing the effect of the source water chemistry. From this point forward, unexpected PH fluctuations are entirely due to other variables.

Watch these for a background:

ways-to-get-a-buffer-solution
ph-and-pka-relationship-for-buffers

Some of the variables we can never know for certain and one is left with experimentally determining the effect of the chemistry added, the effect of the environment, and the effect of the system/biology. Break the problem down into distinct steps and you’ll get an idea of how each step affects the PH. You can get an idea of how your solution will behave by titrating the solution with a strong acid / strong base to get an idea of where the buffering exists. If any.

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The rez was up to 6.7 and the tank was up to 6.4.

LOL Mr Fatman is quite the character. I seem to recall he claimed to be some sort of chemist, so maybe he knows what he is talking about. I had a hard time getting past his penchant for insulting and attacking pretty much anyone who had an opinion about pretty much anything. Talk about someone who is always right to the point of phobia!

I need to re-read that quote you posted a few times. For some reason, chemistry doesnt soak into my mind very easily.

It sounds like he it talking about buffering against LOW ph drifting using mainly Magnesium Carbonate?

Im not at all clear on what Fatman proposes to balance that out - the weak acid that @Northern_Loki is talking about - that is needed to pair up to form the buffer?

From the little (I think) I understood when looking at that Buffer Calculator I found, it sounds like you can dial in the desired PH range by adjusting the relative concentrations of the weak acid/base combinations used to form the buffer.

I need to re-read @Northern_Loki post about 10 times as well. Im not sure if his info agrees with Fatmans or not, but I think so…

Crap. Maybe @Palindrome was right and Im going to have to start mixing up my own nutes. Crap.

In the mean time, I just noticed that my new bottle of CalMag is made with Magnesium Carbonate - one part of a “good buffer”?

Is the other part - the weak acid - already in my nutes?

It sounds like I need nutes made with Mag. Carbonate, but Im still unclear on what the matching part I would need to form the buffer. Im thinking the target PH/pKa needs to be in the 5.5-5.8 range. If I can figure out exactly which stuff to form the buffer, maybe that Buffer Calculator would tell me the ratios to use.

Anyone have a good reference/tutorial on mixing your own nutes? Preferably on the cheap and with built in buffering?

In the mean time, I decided to order some AN nutes PH Perfect. It was $40 I didnt need to spend, but if it works, it will save this grow while I try to get this buffer crap straight in my head and figure out how to mix up nutes I can afford.

Thanks guys!!! My head would be exploding even more if it wasnt for all you guys jumping in to help :smiley:

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Yes, there are lots of words there. Trying to explain my understanding in way a that might make sense without too much gobbly-gook and errors is difficult. “Words are hard” :sweat_smile:

The underlying “PH” problem, in reality, is not straight forward because of the wide variety of possibilities. It is why there is not really a magic bullet for all situations. We are not talking about simple chemistry but instead we have a complex system. It is why we PH for soil vs hydro differently. As a result, much of what we do is based on generalities of what works and has worked in the past. You tune it for your particular situation.

Though my feeling is, before chasing the PH around, is to start with the background of what leads to PH, what is a buffer, what is not a buffer, what is pKa, etc. Then step back and see if any of that might make sense as applied to your specific situation. In a stepwise fashion. This doesn’t mean one would need to go through a bunch of calculations but instead it’s more a matter of having an intuitive feel that something is going on in the background. And, whatever is occurring is related, fundamentally, to how the underlying chemistry behaves.

The alternative is the shotgun approach, which is perfectly fine. I mean, we are here to get to growing and lot of this stuff is just another distraction. Experience dictates that there are a variety of solutions that seem to work well-enough without having to dig into the background, building custom nutrient solutions, etc. If it work wells enough, leave it alone.
When things do act consistently whacky, though, it becomes increasingly difficult to troubleshoot the where and the why a problem is occurring and how to address it without using more shotgun. The chemistry is still acting as chemistry does. We just have less information and there are more variables to consider. Particularly difficult if one is trying to manage PH with precision.

Yeah, lots more words. It’s out of my system, now. For at least an hour or so. :imp:

A weak base can create a buffer, too. Think “weak acid/base” as the starting point of a buffer. Watch that video link, it’s short. It shows two different (but similar) mechanisms to create a buffer, both have a weak acid or base involved.

ps. Side thought. Phosphoric acid is a weak acid. This is the usual suspect for commercial PH down while the PH up may be a strong base (Potassium Carbonate, for instance). Hmmm, interesting.

Oh boy. Yeah, lots of words that need clear definitions in my head. The chemistry might be straight forward, but keeping it straight in my mind is not nearly as easy :slight_smile:

Ok, lets look at what I think I know - correct me where needed.

  1. Something about my water (RO and well) is causing a strong buffering action in the UP direction. The target PH/pKa seems to be in the 6.4-6.7 range. (I dont really know what pKa is, but I know it needs to match the PH at your target range)

  2. What ever is causing it, the buffering action is not easily “used up” by adding more PH down.

  3. I need to combine a weak acid with a weak base to create a buffer. The relative quantities of each will determine the buffer PH, and I think how strong it is, ir how capable of buffering against change.

  4. You need weak acid/base pairs because that reaction is easily reversible in solution. Strong acid/base combinations are not reversible, and only go one direction.

Thats a start, but it does not solve my immediate problem of what to do now. I will have some new nutes that claim to control PH in another week or so - slow shipping.

In the mean time - what can I do right now to stabilize the PH?

It looks like Magnesium Carbonate is a good weak base. What is its complimentary acid?

Oh crap again. Ive been reading about “Good buffers” for days thinking a “good buffer” was one that worked well. Turns out there is some jerk named ‘Good’ who listed a bunch of buffers. ‘Good’ doesnt mean its good for me!!!

Ok, first things first.

I need to fix this problem - at least temporarily - now. I cant be adjusting PH every hour with huge doses of acid.

So, unless someone can suggest a specific combination of weak acid/base, that I can mix up and dump in my rez, Im going to have to go back to the well water. At least with the well water, the PH swings were manageable.

I have been making lists of weak acids and bases, but I have not found which ones work together or are “conjugate” - at least not any that are specifically safe for plants.

Plus, the example graph @Northern_Loki posted above shows a weak acid plus a strong base as opposed to a weak/weak combo.

Im reading other posts that are similarly contradictory - at least to my limited understanding.

So - Im just getting more confused.

Can anyone point me to something specific I can buy and mix up and dump in my rez that will buffer in the 5.5-5.8 range?

Or - is that not going to work? Do I need to mix my own nutes from scratch?

The only specific buffers Ive seen so far are MES and organic resins - both of which are very $$.

Fatman says to use a phosphate/carbonate combo - but which exact chemicals is he talking about? There are hundreds of variations. He is also mor worried about controlling a falling ph, and mine is rising - does that make any difference?

aaaarrrggghhhh!!!

I thought you had given me a solid lead here, but Im reading that Potassium Carbonate is a weak base and not strong?

Edit: I have found conflicting references on this too! Some sites say its a weak base and other say strong!!

  1. RO water has no buffering. It may float up or down. But no buffering. You’ve removed most everything. First, what is the EC of your RO water? Your well water, on the other-hand, is an entirely different beast (it has remained a mystery). The RO should be sitting near the middle (PH=7) of the earlier graphs. Addition of either an acid or base should cause an abrupt change in the PH. If you have already added a base, for instance, then you add an acid, you are still on the curve of the earlier graph. Dump in a bunch of acid and you’ll eventually flop over to the other side. But, to get it to settle at a PH between the two is like trying to balance on a knifes edge. Mind you, this is RO + strong base then add a strong base. Nothing else.
  2. Are you saying that with RO straight from the RO system with nothing else added it will not PH adjust down? This in combination with (1) does not make sense to me. What is the PH down that you are using?
  3. A weak acid in conjunction with its conjugate salt or a strong base will produce a buffer. A weak base in conjunction with its conjugate salt or strong acid will produce a buffer. A weak acid + a weak base = I don’t know.
  4. A buffer will create an equilibrium between the two chemicals. Between the H+ and OH-. If H+ is added into solution, the chemical component with the OH- will interact with the added H+. And the converse. In fact, as you consume the capacity of the buffer you only need to add one of the chemicals in the buffer complex to regain some of the buffering effect.
    A strong acid added to a strong base will form a neutral salt or water and doesn’t contribute as a buffer. A “strong” something really really wants to donate H+ or OH-. And it will get rid of them the instant an opportunity arises.

First need to figure out what the deal is with (1) and (2).

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Potassium Carbonate is strongly alkaline (carbonate). But, I (currently) believe you are correct, it is a weak base. Alkalinity and PH are different measures.

Don’t know the carbonate + phosphate combo. Mono-potassium phosphate and Di-potassium phosphate, for instance. Here is an example calculator:

Note, that your nutrient solution may already have one (of maybe both) of these components. You may be able to build off of that. Off course, nutrient ratios will get munged.

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Ah, part of my problem is the whole ‘conjugate’ thing. Ive been confused by ‘conjugate base’ vrs ‘conjugate salt’ - and still am :slight_smile: Is that the same thing? Ive been trying to find conjugate bases for the acids, should I look for conjugate salts instead? It seems to me lots of folks are confused by this based on what I am reading.

  1. The RO water EC is too low to register on my BlueLab truncheon, so its below 0.1 The well water was also mostly too low to read, but when it did it was generally around 0.1 to at most 0.2.

  2. No, the RO water PH’s down just fine - and seems to stay stable. It also PH’s up just fine- and also seems stable. That is based on my testing in mason jars. I only let those tests run for a few (3?) hours, so maybe I need to let it sit longer? Also, I PH’ed the RO down to 3.4 range. Maybe I need to re-test at 5.5-5.8 instead and see how that does? hmmmm I think I will do that with the RO and well water and see what happens.

However, the combo of calmag (100-200 PPM±) + mega crop (0.9-1.1 PPM±) + RO water + Potassium Carbonate (GH PH up) and zero PH down, starts at 5.5-5.6, but quickly climbs back to 6.4+. I repeatedly PH’ed it back down and it just climbs back to 6.4-6.7.

Ok, I started the new PH tests.

Well water starts at PH 6.7 and EC about 0.2. Ten drops of sulfuric acid mix drops it to 5.7 after mixing, but it instantly starts to climb. After 10 minutes its up to 6.1 and still climbing.

The RO starts around 6.9PH but it wont hold a reading. EC wont read either. Adding one drop of the acid lowers PH to 4.8. After ten minutes its still 4.8.

I will let both go for several hours.

Out of desperation, I added another 40 ml or so of my new cal-mag. Its made from Calsium Hydroxide and Magnesium Carbonate. The magnesium carbonate was mentioned somewhere as one of the possible buffers - but I have no clue what its conjugate would be. Adding that cal-mag immediately dropped the PH from 5.9 to 5.5, but after 2 hours its back up to 5.7.

By the way - I hope my chemically induced PH frustration is not coming across as directed towards you (or anyone else) in any way! I am once again in your debt for the on-going help. Im just blowing off steam :slight_smile: