Adventures in Hydro #2 - LP Aero/NFT mash-up - or - switching to HPA?

Grumble, gripe, piss, and moan. It took several hours over the last two days to find some new nozzles to try. The Hypro nozzles were recommended, but it turns out that Hypro is an Italian company that shuts down during the summer, and none of the US distributors have any in stock. Lead times were quoted from 2 weeks to 12 weeks depending on who I asked. I finally found one dealer who claims to have some in stock - but - the company has some very poor reviews for shipping on time and customer service. I ordered them anyway, and will keep my fingers crossed.

Then - I discovered that the accumulator tank I ordered is only rated to a max of 100 PSI - not the 130 listed on Amazon.

After more searching, I decided to try a water heater expansion tank. Its rated to 150 PSI working pressure and has a 5 year warranty - AND - its slightly less expensive.

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Well, crap. The new tank arrived today and its damaged! (sigh) At least Amazon makes returns relatively painless, but I hate the delays.

Im making some progress on the control center at least. I have both timers programmed, but Im only going to be using one for now. Eventually, one timer will handle lights ON timing and the second will take over during lights OFF, but that wont be needed until I start a full grow. That probably wont happen until late Sept some time - after it cools down some.

Sheesh!!! I was just starting to post a pic of the board, and realized I forgot to make space for STC-1000 temp controllers. Ah, well, I have lots of time to re-do it now that the tank has to be sent back :frowning:

Maybe I need to go pop some of my capsulesā€¦ :slight_smile:

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Well crap take two!

My bad luck streak is continuing. The replacement accumulator tank arrived today and it is also dented all to heck, so its going back too. Now to see if I can find a different brand that maybe knows how to package these thingsā€¦

The second and third bad things that happened are more likely due to user error, but I managed to kill both timers trying to remove the relays so I could use a solid state DIY mosfet switch. The goal was more reliability - obviously a fail!

The good news is the mosfet switch I built works perfectly - I just dont have a timer that will trigger it.

I found a different timer on Amazon that is solid state (no mechanical relays), and cheap, so I ordered one of them to try out. It only goes down to .1 seconds intervals, but that should be good enough. The user guide sucks, but the instructions look vaguely similar to the FRM01 timers I killed, so maybe it wont be too hard to figure out how to program it.

The other good news is the Hypro nozzles came today, so I can do some playing around at least while I wait for more partsā€¦

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:eyes: lurking here and loving every step.
Best luck !

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Thank you @sk1 !

Well, I have been busy the last couple of days, although a lot of it has not necessarily been what you would call progress. Killing two timers, and returning two tanks isnt much fun.

But the new Hypro nozzles came yesterday, and I got them hooked up and did some preliminary testing. This is without timers and no tank, so things will change once the system is complete - I hope for the better.

Part of the ā€˜no progressā€™ thing is that these new nozzles DRIP! Possibly even more than the tefens. They do make slightly better looking mist, and they do have a higher opening and closing pressure - both good things. Plus, they have far less ā€œlagā€ than the tefens did. More on that later.

This is frustrating because Atomizer tells me his Hypro nozzles do not drip, and they dont open until the pressure reaches 58 PSI. Mine open, and start dripping at 30-35 PSI. I dont know if its a quality control thing or they changed the specs or what, but its irritating as heck.

Its not necessarily a deal breaker, but the drips will put a dent in my D2W plans. I wont know how bad until I can run some flow tests with the entire system in place. I wont have the new timer or tank until Thursday it looks like.

Anyway, I hooked up one of the hyproā€™s and ran it by switching the solenoids on/off by hand. Here is a video of that first test. You can see the unwanted drips shooting out at the beginning and end of most of the cycles.

Looking at the video one frame at a time, it looked like the time from the first appearance of any water until the spray was fully ā€˜onā€™ was roughly .1 seconds on average.

The shortest time was .07 seconds and the longest was .17, but most were right at .1.

The time for the water to go from full on to full off was longer. The shortest time was .07, and the longest was .2, but two others were .17.

Those times are rough. It was hard to judge exactly when the spray was fully on or just starting to diminish in the small preview window in the editing software. I decided to rig up an LED to turn on/off with the solenoid to get a better idea of the lag times, so I salvaged an LED light panel from an old DIY underwater camera setup.

This is the second test with the LED light.

Looking at this one frame at a time, the mist becomes visible in the same frame that the light turns on up to at most .03 seconds later.

Each frame takes up .03 seconds. That means the nozzles starts emitting spray some where around .03 seconds, or less, after the solenoid turns on. Then, the spray reaches full output after a total of .1 seconds on average.

It takes a lot longer to turn off, but it doesnt seem excessive to me. The average is .17 seconds with a single outlier at .2 seconds - exactly 1 frame extra. So it takes roughly twice as long to turn off as to turn on. Total lag time is around .3 seconds Ā± .03 to maybe .06 seconds.

I have no real clue, but that doesnt seem all that bad to me. At least I hope its not bad :slight_smile: I think I can get down to a little under 1 second pulses and still have a reasonably good spray quality - I hope.

The key question is how much water am I wasting during that .3 seconds plus the drips? I wont know that until the timer, and tank gets here and I can run some output tests - shooting into a plastic bag.

Well, that assumes my luck changes and the parts arrive on time and in good shape! :slight_smile:

One other thing that I was very relieved to notice is that there are fewer drips in the second test than when I did the first test. The only reason I can think of for that, is maybe trapped air - which might add to the lag - is getting purged? No matter why, Im glad to see that. There are still drips, but not as many.

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Im bored waiting for parts, so I decided to do a ā€˜dry runā€™ on the flow test. There is no tank, and no timer, so this is very rough. I mainly wanted to see how well it works.

So I started by weighing a couple of 1 gallon ziplock bags. They weighed 13.3 and 13.2 gms each. My scale can only do .1 gm.

First, I ran the nozzles for 15 seconds with no breaks. Total weight of bag + water was 30.8 gms - 13.3 = 17.5 gms of water over 15 seconds for 1.16 gms/second. That works out to roughly 1.11 gallons per hour. Thats a little higher than the spec sheet says it should be at 80 PSI - maybe 10% or so, but in the ball park.

Second run was for 60 seconds with me watching the seconds on my phone to start/stop the solenoid. I did my best at timing 1 second ON and 1 second off for the full 60 seconds, so a total of 30 seconds of ON time. This time the water in the bag weighed 35.7 gms. That works out to 1.19 gms/second. Thats a lot closer than I was expecting it to be to the first 15 second continuous run. That run works out to 1.13 gallons per hour which is not nearly as bad as I was afraid of as far as extra water from drops.

Of course, my rough timing by hand might be off a good bit, so I will have to test again after I get things put together properly, but this is encouraging.

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By the way, what the heck happened to the weight of water???

Last time I checked - dont ask how long ago that was - 1 cc of water weighed exactly 1 gram! It was an agreed upon international standard - or so I thought.

I just looked it up and 1 cc of water now weighs .9971 grams??? Did an asteroid knock a chunk off the earth when I wasnt looking so it has less mass and less gravity? Or did the moon speed up the rotation period thus reducing the weight? Or has global warming caused all water to expand from the extra heat, so it has less density?

After I calm down I will Google it to find out who fucked this up, but in the mean time - WTF??? :nerd:

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Ok, I figured it out. Some idiot(s) did fuck it up!

For some silly reason, some group of idiots decided to build a ā€œStandard kilogramā€ and store it in France somewhere.

The only problem is, they fucked it up, and got the size wrong! So, their stupid 1kg ā€œstandardā€ weight is off! They apparently cant measure length x width x height any better than weights, and got it wrong. So now every drop of water on the planet weighs less than it should.

sheesh!

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I was going to say that the bankers or the politicians took their cut (while no one was looking, of course). :smile:

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Just a thought, but are you 100% sure itā€™s the nozzles fault here? Could it be the solenoids?

When I first started I had a problem like this, except it was much more pronounced. I ended up switching from the 110v plug-in solenoids that were sent to me by Multiponics and went with my own running 12v and a shared LED driver as the controller. This gave me the instant-on and off cycles with low drip. For some reason those 100v plug-in style were not opening and closing as fast as they should have.

It might just be the video, but it looks like your mist sinks rather quickly. That tells me they arenā€™t small enough droplets. In my system the mist literally hangs in the air, slowly floating downwards. I also think you can see your mist a lot more than in mine.

For reference here was my initial test.

I know you measured and you are getting the flow rate you want, Iā€™m just wondering if the heavier mist will cause droplet build-up on the roots ā€“ giving you more LPA type roots instead of the fine HPA roots youā€™re going for.

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No, Im not 100% sure of that, but I think the bigger issue has been air trapped in the lines. The drips keep getting smaller every day, so Im assuming Im slowly purging trapped air.

These are 12 volt solenoids:

They look to be fairly fast opening at somewhere under 20 miliseconds from off to full open, but they are much slower closing - somewhere around 170 miliseconds to close all the way. Im goign to revisit those measurements after I get all the parts hooked up.

Its partly the video I think. Im shooting against a black background with strong over head lights. I had to do that or the mist didnt show up hardly at all. I tried shooting into a red 5 gallon bucket, but you could hardly see anything.

Im still concerned about that though.

I cant really tell from your video - how long would you say your hang time is?

These Hypro nozzles were recommended by Atomizer, and they are supposed to produce 50 micron droplets starting at 40 PSI according to the spec sheet - but - Im wondering of thats true. Atomizer says his dont open until the pressure is 58 PSI, but mine open at about 30-35 PSI. On top of that, the ā€œmistā€ they produce at 40 PSI is clearly a spray and not a mist. They dont produce good mist until at least 60-70 PSI.

Ive tried raising the pressure on the reducer, but I cant get above 85 PSI. Once the tank gets here I will try bypassing the pressure reducer and see what they look like at higher pressures.

Thats a concern for sure. Its pretty obvious from this first test that Im going to need at least two, and more probably 4 nozzles to adequately ā€˜fillā€™ the chamber.

I cant afford to keep trying different nozzles at this point. Im already too far over budget, so Im just going to go ahead with these and see what happens. I will know how well they work - as far as fuzzy roots - within 2 to 3 weeks after starting some clones or seeds.

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The timers arrived today and they seem to work well. The programming wasnt toooooo bad to figure out. Its similar to the FRM01ā€™s so that helped. Once you get past the crappy instructions and actually see how to do the programming, its pretty straight forward.

They have some nice features that I Like too - like a ā€œSTOPā€ button, and an external signal input to trigger the timer or the switch if you need that. I may end up using the trigger to switch between day and night timing modes, but that is still up in the air.

In addition to being solid state instead of using mechanical relays, the other big difference is that these timers feed input power directly through the timer. In other words, the relay portion isnt an isolated switch. It is integral to the timer circuit. You feed 12 volts into the timer, and that same 12 volts is switched at the output terminals. It simplifies the wiring somewhat, but you need to keep that in mind if anyone is considering using these in another project. There are times when the power you want to switch needs to be isolated from the supply power, and these wont work in that situation.

Im going to re-run my flow tests with the timers in place just to see if there is a significant difference. Results shortlyā€¦

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Ok, I am no longer worried (very much) about the drip issue.

I re-ran the flow tests, but for longer times. That should reduce any measurement errors to some degree.

I did one run with continuous flow for 30 seconds. That resulted in a flow rate of 1.103 grams/second.

Then I did a 2 minute run with 1 second ON and 1 second off, for a total of 60 seconds of ON time over 60 cycles. That resulted in a flow rate of 1.196 grams/second.

So, the drips are costing me roughly 6% extra, wasted flow that wont ever get to the roots. I can live with that easily I think.

Atomizer recommends a max flow rate for my size chamber of around 4.58 liters/day x 7 = 32.1 liters/week or about 8.5 gallons a week. Adding an extra 6% is only 1.9 liters or .5 gallons for a total of around 9 gallons/week. I was using a lot more nutes doing 15 gallon rez changes on a regular basis. Im ok with D2W even if I end up using the same amount of nutes I did before, but less would be much better.

At 9 gallons per week of use, I can still go over a week without topping off the rez.

In order to hit that flow rate, assuming I end up with 4 nozzles, Im going to need timing on the order of .6 seconds ON and 60 seconds of off time towards the end of the grow - less early on.

Maybe :slight_smile:

Next step is to repeat these tests with the accumulator tank in place, and then start adding nozzles to the root chamber until it looks like its getting adequately filled with mist.

I re-did the mist test zoomed in a little closer so things are easier to see.

This was at 80 PSI, and 2 seconds ON, 1 second off. My hang time looks likes its right around 1.25 seconds. Im not at all sure that will work for what I want.

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Didnā€™t realize it, but those are the exact solenoids Iā€™m using so I think we can assume thatā€™s not the issue.

Ah that makes sense. I did mine under the top, so itā€™s harder to see my mist. My mist tends to hang in the air for about 3 seconds before it fully vanishes.

Aha! I totally forgot youā€™re running a pressure reducer. Iā€™m not sure thatā€™s 100% part of the issue, but my system tries to stay near 100psi at all times. I do fall below 90psi for a single spray, but that generally triggers the pressure switch to re-pressurize the system back up to 100psi. Itā€™d be interesting to see what happens when you run w/o that pressure reducer. Hopefully thatā€™s all it is.

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I heard back from Atomizer. He says 1.25 seconds of hang time ā€œisnt too bad for HPAā€. That means your 3 seconds are even better. Of course, the implication is that AA would be better yet, and any kind of HPA is second best :slight_smile:

He suggested re-doing the mist test with the room totally dark except for a small LED spot light light shinning into the chamber. That should let you see the droplets that were invisible before. Iā€™ll try that tonight maybe.

I was really hoping to keep the reducer in the system. There are two good reasons to keep it. One is to keep the pressure at the nozzle the same all the time, so the mist is always the same. The second is it will keep the pump from cycling on/off as often.

Using Boyles Law, the usable volume of my ā€œ4.5 gallonā€ accumulator tank should be roughly 1 gallon if I have a cut on pressure of 85 PSI and a cut off pressure of 125 PSI and the nozzles set to 80 PSI with the reducer.

If I assume 1 second ON time and 60 seconds OFF time, and a flow rate of .018 gallons /hour/nozzle, that means the pump will only have to run every 55 hours or so to re-fill the tank - or once every two days or so for a single nozzle. If I have two nozzles, thats about once a day, or about twice a day if Im using four nozzles. The pump Im using will take about 6 minutes to pump that 1 gallon back in.

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Woohoo! The new tank arrived and it is NOT damaged!! Back to buildingā€¦

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Im almost ready to post some pics of the build progress, but I wanted to share this first.

I bought one of these dual TDS meters to monitor the difference between the solution being sprayed on the roots and the run-off. The idea being that you would adjust the nute strength in the rez based on the difference. If the run-off is higher TDS than the rez solution, the you need to lower the PPMā€™s. If its lower, then you need to raise the PPMā€™s.

Not surprisingly, it wasnt calibrated very well out of the box. It was reading a 1413uS test solution as 880 on the IN and 799 on the out. The instructions say its using the .5 scale, so I adjusted both channels to read 706.

After rinsing, and drying the probes, I checked some nute solution I have that reads 1.3 EC / 650 PPM on the .5 scale with my BlueLab meter. The IN read at 820 and the out read 710. Hmmmmmm. The calibration didnā€™t hold, or maybe I did it wrong. The buttons are a little tricky to use with my fat fingers.

So, I re-calibrated both to read 650, using the nute solution as the reference. After several rinse, dry, test, repeat, the meter seems to be holding the calibration reasonably close. The specs say its Ā±2%, and that seems to be about right. The variations were on the order of Ā± 10 to 15 PPM or so. Part of that Im sure is the solution not flowing. This meter is designed to work with the solution flowing through the pipes, so even small movements of the probes or stirring of the solution change the readings a good bit.

Then I diluted the nute mix down to the 320 PPM range. The IN now read 300 Ā± and the out reads 330 Ā±. Thats more like a 10% total variation - 5% up on one and 5% down on the other.

So, for this particular meter, it looks like its going to be important to calibrate it close to the range you are trying to measure.

Its also going to be important that both probes are in still water, or water that is moving at the same speed more or less. Other wise, one will read higher than the other due to the flow difference. The instructions say you can compensate for still vrs flowing water by calibrating 3% higher than the test solution, but I havent done that yet. Iā€™ll see how the meter reads when its plugged into the supply solution, and compare that to the reading I get from the rez with my BlueLab. I expect very little flow one the run-off.

I am not worried about the absolute value of the IN or OUT readings as long as I can accurately see if there is a significant difference between the two. Its that difference that will tell me how the plants are feeding and if the EC of the nute solution needs to go up or down.

This meter is not going to be useful for detecting very small differences between the supply PPM and the run-off PPM, and probably not for mixing nutes, but it should be fine for monitoring larger differences in the root chamber if I have the EC off from what the plants want.

Dang and darn and shoot and crap! Things were going very well today. I finally got the control panel together and powered everything up to look for leaks, adjust pressures, flush the system, etc, etc.

BUT - the stupid ā€œadjustable pressure relief valveā€ I bought is NOT a pressure relief valve at all! It is some sort of stupid bypass, pressure reducing, flow regulator piece of useless stupid junk. The stupid thing lets water flow through no matter what the setting is. 100% useless crap. On top of that, its not covered under Amazons warranty, so I have to get a return authorization, AND pay return shipping!!!

aaaaarrrrggggg!!!

Here is my control center. Its ugly, and I still need to tidy up the wiring, but I managed to get everything to fit where I can reach it easily. and keep and eye on stuff.

I thought it would be nice to have the pressure relief valve discharge back into the rez if it ever blew, so thats why the plumbing. The accumulator tank is hiding behind the rez. Thats partly because thats where it fits best, but also so the rez will act as at least a partial shield if the tank decides to blow up.

DO NOT MENTION THAT TO MY WIFE!!! :wink:

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Im all better now -well almost :slight_smile:

One thing I really liked about that crap valve I bought was it was plastic. All the other ones are brass, bronze, or stainless. The stainless versions are $$$$, other than some cheap ones that only go up to 100 PSI. I need well over that for the system to work, so Im stuck with a brass water heater T&P valve. Its at the highest point in the system, and there will be trapped air in the riser, so maybe it wont corrode too badly. Im still going to have to keep an eye on it and hope it doesnt contaminate the nute solution with copper. I may have to replace it yearly though. We will see.

The next steps are:

  1. flush the system
  2. adjust the cutoff switch, and pressure reducer to the levels I want. Starting points will be 80 PSI on the reducer, and 85 cut-on for the pressure switch. Cut off will be around 125 or as hi as I can get it.
  3. measure the usable volume of nutes that the tank will hold with those pressure differentials. If the math is accurate, it should be around 1 gallon out of the 4.5 gallons the tank is rated for.
  4. I need to build a fixture to mount/hold the solenoids and nozzles. The solenoids need to be outside the root chamber, so they stay dry. At the same time, I want as short a distance as possible between the nozzles, and solenoids to reduce lag in the spray. Plus, it would be nice if they were easily serviceable if they get plugged up. Thats going to take a little thought.

Ive decided to just go with 4 nozzles. Im pretty sure its going to take that many to fill the chamber properly. I can always reduce the ON time if needed.

Ok, back to testing, and adjusting - hopefully with no more surprises!

.

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