Are bottled microbe products a ripoff? How can you be sure without a microscope?

Basic Growing Info
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Are bottled microbe products a ripoff?
I started this discussion in another thread and wanted to discuss it more.

How do we know there is life in those bottles?
How do we know what that life is?
Proper microbe activity should make bottles explode.
Maybe they are not alive at all?
How would we know?

The only way to tell is with a proper microscope.
We had this discussion with Microbe man from http://www.microbeorganics.com and Tad from https://www.kisorganics.com and a few others back in 2013-2014
Here is how it all started.

Posted May 11, 2018 (edited)
Thanks to the guys over at The Logical Gardener for this.

The Oregon Department of Agriculture finds big problems with little organisms**

Although a product may promise special ingredients, would you be willing to pay $150 if you knew all it contained was colored water? To help keep this from happening, the Oregon Department of Agriculture’s Fertilizer Program samples and analyzes products as part of its consumer protection role. Most recently, the program has looked at products that contain microorganisms– or at least claim to have them. The results of the analyses are less than encouraging.

“Some products have met the claim and have passed, but the percentage is very low,” says fertilizer enforcement specialist Toby Primbs.

ODA’s Fertilizer Program is the only one in the nation checking on ingredient claims made for microbiological products. The program began testing products claiming to contain beneficial bacteria and one type of beneficial fungi (Trichoderma ) in 2013. Of the 51 products tested for bacteria, only nine met their guarantees. Of the 14 products tested for Trichoderma , none met their guarantees. Last year, the program began testing products with mycorrhizal fungi, which form partnerships with plant roots for mutual benefit. Of the 17 products tested, only three met the guarantees made on the product label.

“Many of these products are being sold at a premium price, yet nobody was looking to see if these microbes were actually in the product,” says ODA fertilizer specialist Matt Haynes. “We had anecdotal information that some products had nothing added despite what was said on the label. Once we started looking, more often than not, the companies making these products were not able to back their claims.”

As an example, a one-liter retail container of a fertilizer product that claimed to have both fungi and bacteria sold for $87.50, yet testing did not indicate the presence any of the microbes.

Not the proper document but all I could find now.
https://www.lakeoswegoreview.com/archives/community/oda-finds-big-problems-with-little-organisms/article_3b631f83-0990-58de-9a46-85a6150aaad6.html

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Even if/ when they contain beneficials, I still say they’re a racket.
Homemade LABS will give you lactose lovers, homemade IMO will give you fungi, a steamed potato in a bucket of water with a fistful of compost will give you anything else you might want in terms of micro organisms.
/My opinion

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No real way of knowing- except a side-by-side grow… add it to one clone and not the other…
I’ve been using them…but like you say- unsure of whether it is helping any…

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I use foxfarm microbe and feel it works very well. 1/2 tsp per gallon every feed. I use it with coco/peat/perlite

I use it along with Kelp Me Kelp You. 1/4 tsp per gallon every feed.

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I don’t trust these bottled nute companies one bit.
Why?
Have a look…
https://data.oregon.gov/Natural-Resources/Fertilizer-Program-Stop-Sales/svge-u3j9

Southern Ag’s Triple Action Neem Oil . came back positive for Malathion, a non-organic pesticide as well as Chlorpyrifos and Permethrin and several other non-organic active ingredients.

Azatin O Biological Insecticide AKA neem
ODA’s actions come following an investigation of the product and laboratory analysis that found the presence of the pesticide active ingredients bifenthrin, fenpropathrin, and lambda-cyhalothrin, none of which are listed on the product label.

Nice right?
What’s in your smoke stream?

To test similar products, ODA visited local stores and purchased six (6) different neem oil products from six (6) different registrants or manufacturers. All products were labeled for organic use. Samples were submitted and results showed all six (6) products tested positive for several active ingredients not listed on the labels including: Malathion, Chlorpyrifos and Permethrin, and several other non-organic active ingredients.

Based upon these results, ODA has issued an additional six (6) statewide SSURO’s for the following registered products:

  • Bonide, Neem Oil, EPA #70051-2-4, Lot #18082202
  • Schultz Company, Garden Safe brand, Neem Oil Extract, EPA #70051-2-39609,
    Lot #U071818 L 002817
  • Woodstream Corporation, Safer Brand, Neem Oil, EPA #70051-2-42697,
    Lot #LBL5182B 0617
  • Lawn and Garden Products Inc, Monterey, 70% Neem Oil, EPA #70051-2-54705,
    Lot # 1800241958 MLN #70892947
  • Certis, Trilogy, EPA #70051-2, Lot #71133547
  • Bayer Advanced, Natria Neem Oil, EPA #70051-2-72155, Lot #NP65FX7081

Agro Gold WS has been distributed within a co-packed box that also contains the product Weed Slayer, an herbicide also listed as approved for use in organic agriculture.

“The product Agro Gold WS has been found to contain both diquat and glyphosate.

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Wait. You guys aren’t used the 137 bottle advanced nutrients full line? It’s got what plants crave. Says it right on the bottle

Really though the only bottled products I use at this point are Pure Crop 1, Botanicare’s Fulvex, and Dyna gro Protekt. Everything else we do homemade w/teas for the most part

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Did you see I posted a DIY protekt formula?

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That’s scary! I try and use nothing to spray because of issues like this.

But also whats approved now, we could find out later that it has some cancer causing ingredient. Or we could be using products incorrectly. Like it could be listed as ok, but once you ignite the product it gives off poisonous Chem reaction that isn’t approved.

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You know what, I have not. But closer to the end of this 5 gallon monster I will have to give it a go. I do like the consistency of the few items I do buy premade but I’ll try a test run for the hell of it. Thank you for the suggestion

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@Nuskool89
Here is the link…

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Might be worth including the podcast that Tad did with Oregon Dept of Ag where they discuss the findings you’re referencing. Interesting interview(s). Seems that it’s not available on his site at the moment but it’s still up on YT, I Tunes and Stitcher.

As you know, rules and regulations are an important aspect of cannabis cultivation. In addition, it’s important to know that the products we purchase to use in our garden are safe and providing the nutrients or microbes that are listed on the labels. My interview this week is with Sunny Summers and Matt Haynes with the Oregon Dept of Agriculture. The Oregon Department of Agriculture have been leaders at the State level in regards to product testing and information sharing for consumers. I was very excited that they accepted my request to come on the podcast to talk about some of their findings and to help growers better understand pesticide and fertilizer product labels and some of the challenges around policy enforcement.

Sunny Summers is the Cannabis Policy Coordinator for the Department of Agriculture. Sunny has a degree from Oregon State University in Bioresource Research. She worked in pesticide regulation and enforcement for 12 years before making the leap to cannabis. When not scratching her head over cannabis regulations, she can be found napping in the woods, kayaking on the Willamette, or chasing one of the Bruiser Bros. around the Sassy Sunflower Haus
.
Matt Haynes is a graduate of California State Polytechnic University, Pomona with a BS in agronomy. He has been with the Oregon Department of Agriculture for 20 years and the Department’s Fertilizer Program for 18 years. Matt reviews product labels for registration, conducts marketplace inspections, collects and compiles tonnage data, and reviews laboratory sample data. Prior to joining the Department, Matt was with the J. M. Smucker Company and Mission Resource Conservation District.

https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/cannabis-cultivation-and-science-podcast-episode-42

Youtube : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckqgjTbWDps

Apple Podcast : https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-42-fertilizer-and-pesticides-in-cannabis/id1258365194?i=1000428257037

Stitcher : https://www.stitcher.com/show/cannabis-cultivation-and-science-podcast/episode/episode-42-fertilizer-and-pesticides-in-cannabis-with-the-oregon-department-of-agriculture-58327900

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Yikes!

I can’t seem to find the 6 listed Neem oils on that database of SSUROs?

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Nice!
Thank you so much for your contribution. :star_struck:
This is a must listen, in my opinion everyone need to hear this.

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I hear BioAg is the only real bottled fulvic acid product on the market.
I could be wrong here and I don’t mean to knock your product, I do not know anything about it. :slightly_smiling_face:

I researched it years ago, not sure why, I think test results proved everything else to be inferior.

I don’t use fulvic acid any more, I think it is good stuff, helps with carbon if you dont use co2, but worth the money, I am not sure, I grow fine without it, Using peat is a good way to get fulvic acid into your plants for free. :money_mouth_face:

I do think it would still help my grow, if I started using it again I think I would use powder.
I hate to pay to ship water.

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Im curious about the shelf life of these products.

Maybe the bottles come out of the packing plant with %/ppm matching whats on the bottle but populations start declining within a week.

By the time its in your hand its dead weight.

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Ofcourse they’re a rip off, all wilderness everywhere proves it’s a joke.

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I switched from Ful-Power to Mr Fulvic, which is AGT-50 from Agtonik in Kalamazoo MI but packed for retail instead of commercial sale.

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Typical-Analysis-2022.pdf (256.6 KB)

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This is a great product , especially for mother plants you can see stuff growing threw the soil within days of adding it.

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I use real growers Recharge. It’s suppose to have microbes, kelp,humic and fulvic acids. Even if it doesn’t have all the microbes they say it tests for, i buy it to support their small business. They also run the podcast dude grows show. gives me countless hours of growing content and a good laugh while I’m at work.

@Nuskool89 I like using purecrop1 in rotation with dr.zymes. I started making my own and this DIY recipe is a spot on replica that can save you alot of $$$$.
80% glycerin
15% corn/soybean oil
2% insecticidal soap (SLS, Dr. Bronner’s)
2% aromatic oil (vanillin, rosemary, thyme)
0.5% guar/xanthan gum
0.5% citric acid

Heat everything through and stir to incorporate. Add aromatic oils while cooling and incorporate.

Use @ 1-2 oz/gallon. Spray until beading on leaves.
(Courtesy of open salts wiki)

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@shag I’ve been using Xtreme Gardening Mykos. Got some as a sample and they “seemed” to work, but this was outdoors in 20s and 30s. In a tent in 3 gallon pots? I keep thinking of the freeze dried “sea monkeys” from comic books and the fair. Doubt I will buy more dry microbes. Might try and get a free sample of bottled ones.

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