I want to feed MSG (monosodium glutamate) to my cannabis plants, what are your thoughts on that?

Advanced Techniques
#75

So I was trying to look up dosage since that seems to be the only thing missing in this thread, and I came across two things.

One is this arbitrary experience, hear say technically at that, on the results of adding MSG to pots of cayenne peppers
https://www.vietworldkitchen.com/blog/2020/08/my-dads-msg-gardening-experiments.html

TLDR; They found that adding MSG as fertilizer to the pot(s), neutralized the heat and possibly the flavor of the peppers. The MSG fed pots were not hot at all, and the pots with no MSG were still hot. I haven’t been able to find any other experience like this so far in a quick hunt.

And then this other paper I found does list some dosages(4ml/liter and 8ml/liter… Unsure how they’re getting milliliters out of a dry powder :thinking: ) against and with standard fertilizer, but doesn’t properly account for all the statistical differences for each result they show with their graphs.
https://eksakta.ppj.unp.ac.id/index.php/eksakta/article/download/283/152/1448
They also don’t actually eat said peppers so no idea if the effect from the first site is a thing or not.

On another note, it seems MSG breaks out to NPK. It seems you can feed a plant solely with MSG and no other fertilizers at all.

MSG can be used as an organic fertilizer because it has a high content of organic matter and nutrients such as elements N, P, and K. This is confirmed by research using MSG (Monosodium glutamate) with an optimum concentration of 15 g / plant, which states that MSG contains 5% N elements, P 0.4%, and K 1.7%, thereby increasing the production of pakcoy plants [37]

So from this site and paper and the previous papers posted in this thread, that science project lol and some quick research; I’d wonder if any “benefit” of MSG is solely because of it’s NPK ratio and easy uptake, and not some extra function(s) we haven’t uncovered yet/aren’t happening in our other fertilizers anyways :face_with_monocle:

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#76

Do you mean like…
I feel this one may be most important and useful of all.
L-glutamic acid acts as a cytoplasm osmotic agent of the “guard cells”, thus favoring the opening of the stomas while improving the health of the plant.

In simple terms:
Glutamic Acid acts on the plant’s pores, pushing them to open regardless of internal or external factors.

Why is this helpful?
Think in terms of a foliar spray, this can help immensely with absorption.
This may in fact be one of the active ingredients along with Diethanolamine for an emulsifier in Saturator.
Diethanolamine has possible links to cancer.
Maybe that is why they changed the formula and name.

DM Penetrator/saturator

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Personal Note:
20 mM Glu

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#77

Here is just a few reasons I may disagree. :thinking:

  1. Glutamic acid is an important amino acid that is essential for plant growth and development.
  2. It is a component of proteins, and it is involved in a variety of metabolic processes in plants, including the synthesis of secondary metabolites, the regulation of gene expression, and the transportation of nutrients within the plant.
  3. Glutamic acid is also an important signaling molecule in plants, and it plays a role in plant responses to stress, such as drought or disease.
  4. Some studies have shown that supplementing the diet of plants with additional glutamic acid can improve their growth and development, especially under stress conditions.
  5. Glutamate as the nitrogen donor in primer metabolism and gibberellic acid precursor.
  6. It reshapes the plant microbiota to protect plants against pests and pathogens.
  7. Glutamate has a potential impact on increased Ca uptake and distribution.
  8. Has the potential to increase cannabinoid production.
  9. MSG has the potential to induce a signaling cascade leading to a plant immune response.
  10. MSG might simulate the effects of defoliation without actually having to remove leaves.
  11. It’s an excellent pH-neutral organic fertilizer
  12. MSG is an awesome source for phosphorus and helps the plant to grow a healthy root system.
  13. It works great in conjunction with blood meal.
  14. Glutamic acid foliar application enhances antioxidant enzyme activities among other things.
  15. Glutamate is one of the most abundant nonessential amino acids found in nature
  16. It works to enhance the immune response effect and protect the plant from yield loss in times of stress when like when removing leaves ect.
  17. Glutamic acid foliar application enhances antioxidant enzyme activities.
  18. Glutamate is not dangerous to feed to plants, smoking it simply burns it to cinder/ash
    19.Glutamic Acid is fundamental metabolites in the process of formation of vegetable tissue and chlorophyll synthesis.
  19. Glutamic Acid help to increase chlorophyll concentration in the plant leading to higher degree of photosynthesis. This makes crops lush Green.
  20. Glutamic Acid is known to be a very effective chelating agent.
  21. Glutamic Acid are essential amino acids for pollination.
  22. Glutamic Acid is a common precursor of many organic compounds.
    23.Glutamic Acid can be taken up directly by the roots, and then transported among tissues or organs through xylem and phloem.
  23. Glutamic acid is an α-amino acid that is used by almost all living beings in the biosynthesis of proteins.
  24. Glutamic acid alone had a constructive effect on the plant scavenging mechanisms against stress.
  25. Antioxidant activities (SOD, POD and CAT) were positively affected by exogenous glutamic acid.
  26. Glutamic acid may act to alleviate the adverse effect of salt stress.
  27. Exogenous Treatment with Glutamate Induces Immune Response.
  28. The treatment of roots with Glutamate activates the expression of PAMP-, salicylic acid-, and jasmonic acid-inducible genes in leaves.
  29. The treatment of roots with Glutamate primes chitin-induced responses in leaves.
  30. Exogenous treatment with Glutamate enhances resistance against pathogens
  31. The treatment of seedlings with Glutamate activates the expression of wound-, PAMP-, and DAMP-inducible genes in a temporally distinct manner.
  32. Glutamate induces expression of the PTI marker genes more gradually and for much longer periods .
  33. Glu treatment to the roots of mature plants also induces very gradual expression of defense-related genes in systemic tissues.
  34. Glu has the potential to contribute to sustainable disease control in agriculture.
  35. Glutamic Acid Foliar Application Enhances Antioxidant Enzyme Activities
  36. Foliar application of glutamic acid produces better development of the tomato plant and increases fruit production.
  37. Glutamic Acid promotes seed germination by counteracting the effect of abscisic acid (ABA)
  38. Glutamic acid reshapes the plant microbiota to protect plants against pathogens.
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#78

ah yeah that’s a good point. Could be an ingredient.

I have not ever done foliar’s really so its not a mode of action I normally think of when it comes to plant uptake. And I’ve yet to see a paper regarding MSG as a foliar spray :thinking: I’ve found plenty of people talking about it, hell I’ve even seen the FDA notices allowing it to be sprayed unlimitedly on all food plants, but no papers. TruthInLabeling.org has an entire page about MSG that reads like the opposite of what we’re saying here lol but they offer no proof, paper, or even link to verify anything they claim.

Papers verifying any of these claims, from either side, would be appreciable.

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#79

s-l640

#80

https://www.hst-j.org/articles/article/BWaY/

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/910/1/012087/meta
https://www.cabdirect.org/cabdirect/abstract/20153189444

https://www.cabdirect.org/cabdirect/abstract/20133097121
https://journals.ekb.eg/article_273379.html

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Shahrokh-Khanizadeh/publication/259575726_Effects_of_Foliar-Applied_L-Glutamic_Acid_on_the_Diurnal_Variations_of_Leaf_Gas_Exchange_and_Chlorophyll_Fluorescence_Parameters_in_Hawthorn_Crataegus_pinnatifida_Bge/links/5911e6c4aca27200fe3e0aca/Effects-of-Foliar-Applied-L-Glutamic-Acid-on-the-Diurnal-Variations-of-Leaf-Gas-Exchange-and-Chlorophyll-Fluorescence-Parameters-in-Hawthorn-Crataegus-pinnatifida-Bge.pdf
https://www.iasj.net/iasj/download/b2b5dc5a588df2d5

There may be redundancy, I posted these kind quickly.

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#81

Difference Between Glutamate, Glutathione & Glutamine

Your body requires substances called amino acids to perform tasks that include building your supply of proteins, helping regulate the body’s usage of energy and controlling essentially all the chemical processes inside cells.

Glutamate and glutamine are different types of amino acids. Glutathione is a substance derived from several different amino acids. Glutamate is also known as glutamic acid. It belongs to a group of amino acids called nonessential amino acids; you need these types of acids for good health but make enough of them internally to fulfil your body’s needs. In addition to helping form proteins, the glutamate in your body functions as a neurotransmitter and helps relay signals in your nervous system. Some of the information it helps transfer is vital for the normal function of all your cells. Glutamate is also essential for the formation of another important neurotransmitter, called GABA, or gamma-aminobutyric acid.

Glutamine Basics
Glutamine is the single most abundant amino acid in the human body. Like glutamate, it is made internally and so is classified as a nonessential amino acid. You need glutamine for purposes that include eliminating the waste product ammonia from your body and maintaining normal function in your immune system, as well as maintaining the function of your digestive system and brain. Most people have no problem supplying their bodies with glutamine. However, conditions and circumstances such as chronic stress, infections, surgery and physical injury can lead to the development of glutamine deficiency.

Glutathione Basics
Glutathione, also called glutamyl cysteiny lglycine, is a natural substance in your body made from a specific form of glutamate, as well as two other amino acids called cysteine and glycine. Like glutamate, cysteine and glycine are nonessential amino acids. Glutathione plays a major role in controlling the types of bonds formed between proteins and other substances in your body. It also functions as an antioxidant and helps protect your cells from cell-damaging molecules known as free radicals. In addition, glutathione helps your body absorb and use other amino acids.

@HolyAngel
The title may be misleading, I did it for fun. :upside_down_face:
Quick tip:
Glutamate(Glu) is basically the same as Glutamic acid and that is the same as MSG.

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#82

A lactic acid bacteria (LAB) mix is good stuff in part because of glutamic acid and less so, gaba production. Also great source of B vitamins and other aminos.

Another plug for this guy’s hypothesis on milk kefir hexanoate / hexanoic acid doing the same thing, maybe to a greater extent… but the trigger in the case of hexanoic acid is the plant sensing dead animals decomposing nearby. Where the trigger in the case of glutamic acid is tissue damage, regardless of reason (browsing, wind, etc). How cool.

Here on my spaceship we use milk kefir serum/whey (clear gold) from a batch we maintain for life. Fresh with no dilution, or premixed with molasses 75:25.

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#83

Thanks a bunch for sharing! :star_struck:
That is very interesting, this may stimulate VIA different pathways than Glutamate.
That answer is above my pay grade.
But I am pretty sure it does.

With that said, I believe if we stimulate through multiple pathways in multiple ways we may be able to multiply the effects… AKA multiply the secondary metabolite production.

@Cactus
Do you have any thoughts on this?

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#84

Hexanoic acid seems to stimulate both.

Hexanoic acid is a resistance inducer that protects tomato plants against Pseudomonas syringae by priming the jasmonic acid and salicylic acid pathways

A lactic acid bacteria (LAB) mix is kinda of a throw a bunch of stuff at the project not knowing what is in it and in what amounts.
The cost of Hexanoic acid is really too high to use for gardening.

While I am sure adding a LAB mix to your grow would give you healthier plants, I am searching for a more definable effect, something where just 1 added component shows improvement in plant health and growth.

This way I can use it as it is intended with precise aim and pinpoint accuracy to achieve the desired goal perfectly.
I can also be assured nothing else is creating the observed effects.

For example:
Microbes are known to produce PGR’s.
Are there any PGR-producing microbes in the LAB?
Not saying there is, I really doubt it, but without testing everything is just a guess.
Again, I say a LAB mix is good, but it is more of a shotgun approach to things hoping for the desired effect.

Is this guy you? :laughing:

Can you show me some?
Can I drink it?
I would be interested in that. :star_struck:

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#85

No :rofl: more like he’s a major source of my confirmation bias LOL!!

I have no idea if it does anything, net positive or negative. I know the smoke is considerable.

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Left is the batch after a few hours. Not yet separated. Right two are serum + molasses. Not much to look at! I’ll update tomorrow with it separated. Yes you can drink it. You can also drink Impello Tribus. :thinking:

For posterity sakes:

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Liquid Gold

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#86

Not this guy…LOL
I would have to look further into it, but the claims they make remind me of what phytohormones do not microbes, so don’t go drinkin it.

Hmmm?
Where have I heard these kinda claims before?
Oh yea, now I remember… :wink:

#87

Settle down young man! You can drink it because it’s lactic acid bacteria which is not a food borne pathogen to humans.

image

Tribus is a LAB culture of 3 specific strains. No magic claims. You’re a science guy right? With all due respect.

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#88

:rofl: :joy: :rofl:
Yea, you are right, that stuff is 100% all cool man.
What I am saying it I don’t trust the bottled nute industry.
They have been found time and time again to be lying about what is in the bottle.

When it first came out it had claims that reminded me of Phytohormones.
I think they took the biosimulant claims too far and had to tone em down a notch.
When I looked just now, I saw nothing outstanding.
That was years ago, that is what I remember.
I guess I could be wrong, I may have to look again.

I also have a thing for bottled fermented products.
If it is a good ferment (tons of microbial activity) the bottles on the shelf should explode.
You know much more about fermentation than I do.
What happens if you take a good fermentation and seal it up?
There have been a bunch of tests done that proved bottled microbes are mostly dead.

We should ask @JoeCrowe to look at some for us.

I feel that is the best way to know the truth about microbes, if you see live microbes you can identify you are good, just because you have microbial activity does not mean you are getting what you paid for.

I studied a wee bit under a guy they call microbeman.
http://www.microbeorganics.com
Tad Hussey from https://www.kisorganics.com and a bunch of others used to hang at the logical gardener site many years ago, but it is gone now.

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#89

MSG is extracted by boiling kelp. People feed their plant kelp extracts! I would suggest that there are probably many people growing using MSG.

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#90

@JoeCrowe
Have you ever looked at bottled microbe products under the scope?

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#91

Nope, I actually don’t use things like that in my grow. For the living soil part that’s outside and I make everything out of compost I brewed up, so it’s definitely alive. Writhing with life. The organic and chemical operations only intersect where I take the root balls, leaves and bubble waste, then feed that into the compost. I would suggest that anything microbe based can’t be stored forever and still be effective.
Also, never double dose the microbes on your crops, it probably won’t work out. The microbes need organic materials to feast on. If that runs low, the plants will take a hit.

3 Likes
#92

From another site…
Posted May 11, 2018

Thanks to the guys over at The Logical Gardener for this.

ODA finds big problems with little organisms

Although a product may promise special ingredients, would you be willing to pay $150 if you knew all it contained was colored water? To help keep this from happening, the Oregon Department of Agriculture’s Fertilizer Program samples and analyzes products as part of its consumer protection role. Most recently, the program has looked at products that contain microorganisms– or at least claim to have them. The results of the analyses are less than encouraging.

“Some products have met the claim and have passed, but the percentage is very low,” says fertilizer enforcement specialist Toby Primbs.

ODA’s Fertilizer Program is the only one in the nation checking on ingredient claims made for microbiological products. The program began testing products claiming to contain beneficial bacteria and one type of beneficial fungi (Trichoderma ) in 2013. Of the 51 products tested for bacteria, only nine met their guarantees. Of the 14 products tested for Trichoderma , none met their guarantees. Last year, the program began testing products with mycorrhizal fungi, which form partnerships with plant roots for mutual benefit. Of the 17 products tested, only three met the guarantees made on the product label.

“Many of these products are being sold at a premium price, yet nobody was looking to see if these microbes were actually in the product,” says ODA fertilizer specialist Matt Haynes. “We had anecdotal information that some products had nothing added despite what was said on the label. Once we started looking, more often than not, the companies making these products were not able to back their claims.”

As an example, a one-liter retail container of a fertilizer product that claimed to have both fungi and bacteria sold for $87.50, yet testing did not indicate the presence any of the microbes.

I had all of the test results but since the logical gardener is shut down, I am not sure where they would be.
The results were either from Tad or Tom aka microbeman.

For more on this discussion please go to this thread.

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#93

Exactly!! This is why you need to ferment things at home.

https://a.co/d/3eAXcE8

I got my grains from a friend, that have been in his family for some long amount of time. I’ve bailed him out when his batch died.

Real fermented kefir exceeds the alcohol limit for non-alcoholic beverages. So for commercial drinks they pasteurize a yogurt like beverage and then add a sache of probiotics back into it to hit label figures for live cultures and call it kefir. It’s not.

On the shelf at room temp, a LAB will breathe so much you can hear the jar hissing the whole ride. A sealed jar would pressurize like mad and then die eventually. In the fridge it’s basically “on hold” where 1 week = less than a day at room temp.

I’d not pay for a bottles microbe. Buy grains or start a lab from rice!

So true. That’s the general reason I feed it mixed with molasses, that and it will stay on hold for a month in the fridge, I know because if you go back to room temp it will tick right back up to full speed fermentation.

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#94

So now that we know MSG is a very good thing to feed our plants, has anyone given it a try?

I bet if I put it in a bottle and charged $100 folks would be all over it. :rofl:

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