HB’s 4 strain DWC Perpetual Grow

Thats a very good question and the best answer isnt 100% clear to me.

I would say it depends on your goals here.

If you are after true aero growth - as in fuzzy roots rather than the normal smooth hydro roots, then you will want to keep as much of the total root mass up out of the water as much as possible. Once the roots hit the water, they will stay smooth.

Smooth roots isnt BAD by any means. Its just not as good as fuzzy roots. So the more fuzzy roots you can get the better.

Thats not going to be easy. When Ive tried root trimming it did seem to cause at least some extra side growth = more fish bones. It also stopped or at least slowed the downward growth for a few days. Its also possible it slowed the entire plant down at the same time. That kind of thing is hard to tell over a short time period.

On the flip side, DWC roots are not bad. No matter what you do, the roots will eventually make it to the water. Something similar happens in all my grows. The roots get to the bottom of the chamber as some point and start to pile up. They get the most mist down there because all the mist goes down eventually. That means they tend to be wetter and smoother than the ones up top. Your situation will be similar but more dramatic in that my root chamber never has standing water - its all fabric and the excess water just drain right through it.

We are talking small increments here and other things can easily add to or erase any gain fuzzy roots give you.

So far, your roots dont look like really happy aero roots - with one exception. One plant does look like its developing some fuzzy’s and some new shoots from the bottom of the pot. For what ever reason, those roots are a lot happier than the other roots.

I personally am fanatical when it comes to fuzzy roots. Its really the only reason I do aero, so keep that in mind. All of my advice is colored by that personal vice :smiley: Any potential extra yields - note I said potential - would just be a bonus. I have been getting very good yields since changing over to HPA and even more with AAA, but Im not 100% convinced aero is the main or only reason. I think the way I do scrog has a lot to do with it too.

If it was me, I would try trimming the roots and see what happens. Id also try to figure out why that one plant is so much happier than the others. Light leaks or air leaks would be my first guesses. I would also check for slime or rotten roots and treat or prune as needed.

How are your root chamber temps? Hi temps may be a reason for the browning or it could just be too low a mist density on average. Or is that one plant closer to the most powerful mister or the furthest or something else?

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The bottom of the tote is raised slightly higher in the center than the perimeter. If I’m looking at the same thing you’re referring to, I’m pretty sure the plant with the nicer roots is dead center of the tote. As far as my ability to properly examine my build allows me to do so, I don’t see any leaks other than my uneven hole saw cut on 2 pots which is now filled in with neoprene pod lining. It could be that the fogger is elevated more in the center causing those roots to grow better. Today will be a good test of this as it SHOULD be the first day I’ll be walking in with confidence in terms of my fog system being intact and properly operating(secured the misters on top of net pots that I’ve placed in the tote upside down, both net pots secured by the plunger grips the circular air disks come with).
When i left yesterday my temp inside of the tote was at 65°, my room itself was sitting at 75°, and to be on the safe side I emptied, cleaned, and refilled the tote with fresh water and nutes.

I’ll be in my room in an hour or so. I monster cropped some green crack and lemon headband clones last night as Well and finally got rid of my lone plant in soil. If i find either of these pots are still creating problems im considering grabbing a new lid and cutting my sites out again, maybe even reducing the sites from 5 to 4 or 3. I’m really wanting to take one of my bigger ladies in dwc buckets and popping it into this fog system just to see how well a more demanding(but resilient) lady fairs.

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Just out of curiosity, 9 days(i think, no more than 11) under 12s. Think this is one of the better looking starts ive gotten to this early in a grow. Am I just hyping up these new lights in my own head or does she look healthy to you all?

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Looks great to me!

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Root update

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So I like this system, I really do, but i think I can do better. So starting today we’re gonna add something to this process.
I’d like to build a 10 site Fogponics setup using 7 Gallon totes with 6 inch net pots, one per tote. They will be in 2 rows of 5. At the end of each double sided row will be a 27, air tight tote with a 6 headed ultra sonic mister resting On top of an adjustable bouy system. Each resevoir will have two ports built into them near top, one either side. I will be running pvc tubing from resevoir to the first bucket in each row. In the rear of each resevoir, dead center, I’ll have a slow moving fan built into the tote. In between each bucket the pvc will run pulling air from the first bucket into the second and the third from the UPPER HALF of the bucket. In the resevoir on the other end of the row same setup except the pvc piping will be ran to the LOWER HALF of each bucket, into the third bucket where the ends will meet. Inside of each tote I plan on Building a system of layers out of screening of some sort. This will to help prevent the roots from too quickly reach the bottom of the tote sans water.
Potentially, I don’t see why I couldn’t even train them to spread outward and not down.
Also would expect to have to put submersible cooling units in each resevoir
Definitely will post, plan on having this built in under 2 weeks.

Any feedback is appreciated.

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I really hate to do this, but Im going to rain (get the pun there?) on your parade.
just a bit :cloud_with_rain:

First the fans, pipes, etc. Ive seen this tried before and it just doesnt work.

Remember what I said above about the droplets NOT bouncing when they hit something? Droplets of water do not bounce unless they are traveling at very hi speeds. Even then they dont really bounce off a surface - they shatter into smaller droplets. Your droplets are already too small, so you dont really want to make them smaller.

Most importantly, the droplets have to be moving really fast, or they just stick to the first thing they touch.

What that means is your fans will collect a large % of the available mist as they try to push it from one tote to the next. Then the pipes will collect another large portion as the mist travels through them. Plus you still have the walls, floor, ceiling etc in each tote. The more the mist moves around, the more gets stuck on a surface. Then the return air will force more mist in the starting chamber to hit the walls, etc etc.

I would highly recommend you do a proof of concept to test this before you get too far along. Put the fogger in one tote with a fan blowing into a pipe that cycles right back into the tote, and see how much mist you get cycling through - or how much is lost.

Actually, if you just put a fan inside the tote that swirls the mist, you will quickly see how much is lost when the fan is running vrs off.

Second - on the trellis or screen to train the roots. That idea has also been tried many times and it just doesnt work. The roots can sense where the water is coming from, and they will just ignore any screen, and go for the source of the water. If you make the trellis or screen fine enough to force the roots to grow sideways, no mist will get through it. Roots can and will grow through screens so fine water can only get through by wicking.

The only way to train roots as far as making them go in a specific direction is to move the source of the water so they go toward the source of the water. In your case, thats not going to be easy because your mist mostly just wanders around. It doesnt have a forceful movement like the mist coming out of HPA or AA aero nozzles. Plus, you cant really make the foggers work up on the side of a tote.

Trimming has some effect as I mentioned above, but its not much. Your roots are so close to the bottom of the totes, you dont have much room or time to mess with them before they hit bottom.

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So basically each tote will have to have its own independent fogger, a reservoir will not work in this case?

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Basically thats it.

Id suggest you test to see if Im correct though. Take a tote and a fogger. Let the fogger run till the tote is filled with fog and then look at it to see how dense it is.

Then stick a small fan inside, wait for the fog to build up again, then turn the fan on for a minute or two, and compare the fog density. Or start the fan and the fogger at the same time and see how well the fog builds up.

Its been a few years since Ive seen any reports of anyone trying this. Its always possible Im 100% wrong about this, or you may come up with a solution no one else has that actually works.

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Ive been reading trying to find out what materials slow down the dissipation of fog but so far no solid answers. I’m gonna build a concept system like youve suggested and tweak it around until something more realistic begins to materialize, if anything at all does.

I really would like to see this system run 100% of my room which is roughly 3 seperate 12x12 areas . I know that probably sounds overly ambitious but I’m in love with the concept. My room is too fractured with too many independent systems and my goal is to streamline it all from clone to harvest with the same environment (minus temp and humidity adjustments) using the same system.

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Little update on the green

crack, day 10/11 flower. Starting to see some sugar already!

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What I walked into today, almost 24 hours not being in the room. Everything was smooooth. Lost 2 clones out of 30 in cloner. All monster cropped clones are looking healthy. Only day 2 since cut tho.

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New idea for a concept…
Same 40 gallon tote, 6 plants per tote. Attached to the side of each tote, near the top, there will be a shallow resevoir running the entire length of the tote. I’ll keep it elevated either by an attachment connected to the tote or an independent stand. Both sides of the tote will have this resevoir, 3 foggers per side inline with each plants site, with minimal distance seperating the resevoir from the tote. Keeping the resevoir small and shallow, but immediately next to each plant sites should force all the fog created directly into the tote allowing me to keep the tote free of standing water.
Any thoughts?

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Id have the reservoirs built to insert into the side of the tote, as a fully open unit. Not with independent holes for each fogger, to reduce any objects dividing or interrupting the flow of the fog causing it to ultimately disappear.

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Interesting thought on having the foggers up hi like that. My first thought is you will have the same issue I had on my last grow. That positioning puts the foggers closer to the roots and they can then reach the foggers that much quicker. Remember, the roots will grow horizontally in open air with no support for quite a long distance. Plus, if the lid of the tote is wet, the roots will grow along the lid to get to the foggers.

Those darn things are hard to fool and very persistent! :smiley:

If you can relocate the foggers to different positions as needed that will help.

As far as running everything in your space on foggers, there are some other considerations.

For one, young plants have different needs compared to flowering plants. Thats in terms of flow rates and nute concentrations, so you wont want to have everything in the same chamber or feeding off the same nutes. Different strains also seem to like higher or lower EC and slightly different PH levels, etc.

The flow rate thing is important. Do you have a spec on those foggers as far as how many ML per hour of fog they produce? Im not talking volume of fog, I mean the volume of water they convert to fog per hour?

There is a forum user named Atomizer who is generally considered the expert on all things aeroponic. I dont like him at all, but its not because I think he is wrong. He knows his stuff on aero.

According to him, an aero system - any system producing small droplets like HPA, AA or fogponics - has certain flow rate requirements for the root chamber. In other words, you need to be putting enough liquid into the air for the roots to feed on properly.

Here is a quote from him. Note that these numbers he is giving are for a 26 gallon root chamber. You would need to scale them up/down depending on the open space the fog has to fill.

"In an ideal system, you would set the misting duration based on flowrate and chamber volume. For early growth, the misting duration would provide 0.02ml -0.04ml per gallon of chamber volume. For later growth, 0.06ml per gallon.
The interval between mistings is adjusted to provide the target daily throughput, which will be somewhat dependant on environment variables (light,heat etc). As an example, a 26 gallon chamber with one 1gph nozzle would need a 0.5- 1 second misting duration in early growth and upto 1.5 seconds for later growth. The interval between mistings for early growth would be 35-70 seconds (dependant on the misting duration setting) with a target daily throughput of 1.3 litres. For later growth, the interval would be around 50 seconds with a target daily throughput of 2.65L. The name of the game is to inject mist little and often to maintain an optimal aeroponic environment.
Most aeroponic systems have flowrate, coverage and/or control limitations which provides a defined wet/dry cycle rather than a constant mist environment."

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Your big girls sure do look happy!

Its interesting to me how different each set of roots looks in your fog system. I have run into the same thing. Three different plants, all growing in the same dam system, side by side, all from from the same set of seeds - and yet each one reacts, and looks very differently from the roots up.

It looks like you are getting new root growth and some fuzzy hairs! How close are those roots to being in the water at the bottom of the totes?

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