HB’s 4 strain DWC Perpetual Grow

I should point out that I have been talking like I am an ‘expert’ on aeroponics. Thats true if an expert is an “Unknown drip under pressure” :smiley:

I have made more than my fair share of mistakes in aeroponics starting from LPA all the way to AAA, and Ive only been doing aero for a little over 3 years now. I am still learning and figuring this stuff out a little more each day.

Heck, Im having issues on my newest grow that I am having a tough time figuring out, and I thought I had this all dialed in fairly well!

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For two of them they’re awfully close. I pruned the longest pieces of them today and have a small air stone just in case. One of my DWC roots here

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I doubt you will need the air stone. Plus, that extra air will disrupt the mist. A fair % of your droplets will be going right back into the water at the bottom of the tote. Each one will be at 100% DO by the time it gets there, so Im pretty sure the water will be fine for O2.

EDit: Those are some nice looking DWC roots! You even have some fuzzy’s above the water level :smiley:

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Na you’re guidance is much appreciated and to my best knowledge accurate. Im reading more on the behavior of fog and how it moves. The only thing I’m seeing that we may differ on is some material I’ve read says that even though fog does rise, it falls as is dissipates. Or I’m misreading the literature. Its tendency to fall is what makes me believe the fog being released high would be more effective than any other position but again, im no expert either lol

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I wasnt very clear when I said the fog would raise up off the foggers.

Its not that the small fog sized droplets are lighter than air. All water droplets are water, so they have a higher density than air and will drop - if allowed to drop.

This is a chart that shows how fast droplets of various sizes fall in “still air” and how far they can travel in a 3 mph breeze. As you can see, “dry fog” like that produced by ultrasonic foggers falls really really sloooooowly. It will take a 5 micro droplet over 6.6 minutes to fall 1 foot. In that same 3 mph breeze, it can travel 3.4 miles before it hits the ground.

So basically, even the smallest air movement will move those small droplets all over the place - until they touch something and stick.

The main reason those droplets go UP from the fogger mechanism is heat. The surface of the fogger heats the air right above it, and as the air warms up, it raises up and carries the fog with it.

But any other source of air movement - even very small amounts - will also move those small droplets all over the place. They weigh basically nothing, and they have almost zero momentum, so they are very easy to move.

BUT - more movement also means more chances to hit a wall or the water on the floor or the lid, or the net pot, or maybe a root.

Remember - droplets do not bounce, or stack up in a pile one on top of the other. When they touch anything - even each other - they stick and thats the end of their travels. If they hit each other, they form a larger, heavier droplet they will fall faster. The more hits, the larger it gets and the faster it falls.

It looks to me like your roots are looking a little better each day!

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This may be the death of me.

Plan C:

Acquire a larger tote, 50-60 gallons with a considerable depth. Take two chicken feed troughs, cut to fit and be ran down the long side of tote, on the INSIDE of the tote. Make this an attachable and adjustable piece that be easily removed for cleaning/refilling, and also raised up or down depending on what the roots are appearing to need.
Larger tote = more sites, most likely 8. 8 sites in a 60 gallon tote would amount to 7.5 gallons of space perplant. I know I mentioned screens earlier, and was just reading and article on how they are used to help collect the droplets of water from fog for areas with little to no natural water supply. I would run two screens in this system, but only one at first. This one would be directly beneath my net pots. And it would not be put in until fuzzy roots begin to develop out sides of net pot. The screen SHOULD allow my fog to rise, but it will catch it on the way down and create a slow drip back down the roots and into the tote to be cycled back thru. My troughs would be on both sides of the tote, each with 2 to 3 foggers. Ideally these would be placed into the troughs at an angle, easy to remove, and in very shallow water. These troughs also need to take up minimal space from side of tote extending to the center of the tote to keep roots from getting mixed in. Troughs would begin 3/4 way up tote, once screen is placed half way down tote to ensure roots are fully exposed and fed. Once roots reach that half way point in the tote, my second screen would go in about 1/4 from bottom of tote. This would be used to again, collect nutrient filled water dripping from dissipated dog creating a barrier of sorts, trapping the fog inbetween the two screens UNTIL the roots reach the bottom screen which would now serve two purposes: 1. Ever so slightly slow the rate of which the roots are dropping towards the bottom of the tote. 2. Create a moist and nutrient rich environment for the bottom of the roots. This is why I would like the troughs to be adjustable because at this point I could raise one of them back near the top with the foggers aimed sideways spraying the top of the roots while the other trough would be just above the bottom screen angled to hit center of the root mass. The top screen, I can go with or without. I can see its benefits and its cons. The bottom screen, at least in concept, im committed to until results dictate otherwise.

So what I’m shooting for here:
-Main tote to have no standing water
-More control over the flow of my fog with the potential to create an ideal environment in center of tote for fog to linger longer before dissipation.
-Taking advantage of dissipation by creating nutrient rich pockets of moisture at top and bottom of tote which(in theory) would allow the fog to linger, while immersed in the roots, longer before it begins to break down.

Some updates from today attached


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I like your thoughts on everything except the screens :slight_smile:

I have never yet seen anyone be successful with any type of screen as far as getting roots to make good use of it. Well, the exception is one or two cases for stability and support.

I recently saw a post by Atomizer where he is using a screen in a trough to support his plants, but it is just to give the roots something to hold onto for stability because he is not using any kind of net pot. His atomizing system uses hi pressure to blow the droplets all around and he isnt worried about loosing some droplets to the screen. You have the net pots serving the support purpose already, and he did not.

Im pretty sure that article you read was talking about the screen collecting condensation when the air reached the dew point in an environment with low relative humidity - like a desert environment or some other relatively dry place with little to no rain.

Inside your totes will be as far from that as possible. The humidity is gong to be at or above 100% as long as there are no air leaks, so there will never be condensation or dissipation in the way that article was talking about.

The screen will collect droplets, but not in the sense of recovering the moisture as the fog dissipates/evaporates away. Instead, those screens are going to grab droplets out of the air as they pass by - which will keep them from getting to the roots.

Your droplets are NOT dissipating. They are going away because they hit something and stick to it.

All the screen will do is reduce the number of droplets floating around that much faster. You will be adding one more thing for them to collide with and get stuck to that isnt a root.

Remember your primary goal with any type of aeroponics is to create a UNIFORM environment of droplets in which the roots can have the ideal mixture of O2 and nutes. Ideally, that environment needs to be as uniform and consistent as possible.

In most aero setups, you end up with a wet/dry cycle. The nozzle ON cycle sprays too much water onto the roots making them too wet, which deprives them of oxygen. Then there is the OFF time while the roots dry out - often becoming too dry. That wet/dry cycle can be made to work, but is not ideal.

According to NASA, the ideal environment is composed of 20-80 micron droplets - but - you dont want the mist too wet or too dry. You want it to be as uniform and unchanging as possible - AND - at just the right balance between wet and dry.

To achieve that balance, you need to juggle the flow rates and ON/OFF times of the misters, nozzles, or foggers that you are using to create that environment.

Too hi a flow rate and the roots get soaked during each ON cycle. Too low a flow rate and they never get wet enough. Too short an OFF time and the roots are back to too wet, and too long an OFF time makes them too dry. You need to juggle the flow rate and ON/OFF times to get to those numbers I quoted by Atomizer above. Each system is different, but his numbers will get you in the ball park. Then you have to look at the roots and the plant to dial it in.

It looks to me like your roots are telling you that they are pretty close to being happy. You are getting new white growth and fuzzy hairs, so you are at least in the ball park as far as that environment.

It sounds to me like you are worried about the center, or the under side of the root mass not getting enough mist? You dont really need to worry about that. Those small droplets - especially the ones you are making with the foggers, will easily penetrate into the root mass.

Take a look at the pics of my roots above. They are not all smashed to gether like you see when you pull a mass of roots out of a DWC bucket. There is tons of open space for those micron sized droplets to pass through.

All you need to do is provide enough of those droplets - but not too many. You want it to create the Goldilocks environment - not too much and not too little, but just right :slight_smile:

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This is what a fairly happy ball of aero roots can look like. At first glance, it looks pretty solid - but its not.

By the way - the browning you see on the lower left side is bacause the root mass is too close to the side of the root chamber - which prevents good circulation of the mist on that side. Plus the side of the chamber grabs droplets out of the air.

When you zoom in, there is tons of open space for those micron sized droplets to get in.

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I should clarify, my biggest concern for the center of the tote isn’t the roots being properly fed, I’m seeing reasonable growth both in plant and roots(although I think MAYBE a forth fogger for this system will help move both inside and outside of tote growth), I guess my end goal is to prevent this from becoming a hybrid system due to the roots hitting the water. Partly just to optimize space for root growth, keep a consistent(consistent per ideal environment for the various stages of growth) environment from clone to harvest, and for the sake of science(?), or my limited ability to wrap my mind around this in a scientific manner, to see what 100% fog system is capable of in terms of quality and yield. I currently have two DWC totes similar to my fog tote one being 3 sites the other being 4 sites. 12 plants in total, all taken from the same batch of cuttings, same 3 strains, all put into pots within 2 days of one another. Out of the 7 DWC sites, 5 are outperforming the fog setup BUT ever since ive added the third fogger im getting more daily growth out of the fog system. It just still has some catching up to do thanks to my own errors and lack of preventative measures.

Also just noticed what I said that made it appear for me to be concerned about center roots not getting fed properly. Im my mind (this goes back to the screens which im still having an internal debate on) I would be creating a super humid area of the tote as a safety net if something we’re to go wrong electrically or due to user error.

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Looking for some opinions here if anybody cares to voice them. This pertains only to the system im using now, and the specific plants rooting in the tote now.

Anyone able to tell me why I should not or even could not put a layer of saran wrap over each net pot minus a small hole for the stem of the plant to go thru? Reduce the amount escaping nutrient-rich fog escaping thru the hydroton in the net pots?

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The roots are going to make it to the bottom no matter what you do. Once they get there, a thin layer of water wont hurt. The only way to help with that is a taller chamber - but - that means a LOT more mist generation in order to fill all that extra space.

My root chamber is about 29" tall and the roots hit bottom just two or three weeks into a grow - even with autos. If you are growing photo period plants, they are going to pile up on the bottom big time.

This is my current grow. This baby is about 2 weeks old and the roots are over 12" long already. Most of that growth has been in the last 5 days because this one got off to a slow start. I expect these roots to hit bottom by next week easy.

Remember that your droplets are far far smaller and dryer than the “ideal” 50 micron droplets by a factor of 1000, so you are going to need more fog than you think. That amount will increase as they grow. It takes 1000 5 micron droplets to deliver the same amount of water as a single 50 micron droplet.

Unfortunately, its just not going to work that way. Droplet physics isnt on your side on this.

I would suggest you use something that can breath if you think there is too much air flowing through the hydroton. Some kind of loose woven fabric should do the trick.

Remember - you absolutely, positively, for sure must have fresh air inside the tote or the roots will not be happy. The water will turn anerobic and thats bad.

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Up late smoking a joint, found these on Amazon.

:thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking:

Check this out at Amazon.com
VinBee 15 Pcs Plastic Soda Pop Water Bottle Bird Drinker Feeder Cup Chicken Pigeons Feeder Trough Animal Feeding Accessories https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TVS2932/ref=cm_sw_r_other_apa_i_pPMQEbHJ88AKC![cameringo_20200429_211758|281x500](upload://shfN2BoFqO8rG6Bds114G1Wb1qD.jpeg)

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You going to use those to keep the water level for the foggers constant without having to fill the tote with water?

Thats a very cool idea!

I forget - your tote is 45 gallons or so? Thats roughly 80% of the volume of my root chamber. In early growth, I use aprox 1 gallon per day of water to keep the chamber full of mist. Later in the grow it can get to over 2 gallons per day. You will likely need around 80% of that flow rate - maybe. Im not 100% sure your smaller droplets will translate exactly. You may need more or less, but that should be in the ball park.

That will give you an idea of how often you will need to refill the bottles.

EDit: I just looked closely at the pic of your net pot with the hydroton in it. The hydroton isnt up to the top, so, yeah, they will be leaking a lot of air.

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Its hard to tell from this angle but the part missing the hydroton is covered in water proof tape all around the net pot. Wasnt the best cutting ive ever produced, poor girl was too short to properly nest in the pot fully in hydroton. I think today I may be able to fill her in more.

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Congrats on winning the vault promo!!! Hook me up with some seeds, bro!..lol

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Ty. Any breeders out there id do this 10 pack for a 3 pack fem seeds

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Lol…which pack? You mean you would send seeds to person to grow out and send you seeds back?..lemme know.

Sorry for the lack of updates, been busy and had a very bad day this week that forces me to change my setup some. My 5 site fog system is now a 2 site(2 big ass blueberry cheesecakes) DWC/Fogponics

So far the girls are loving it. Flower about 23 days in, green crack and lemon headband. I’ll be making buckets all week between work, working my way into a 15 plant perpetual grow, need 35 more buckets to get there. Plan is to build 3 (12) bucket systems, RDWC, and continuing to incorporate the fog at various stages.

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Im confused. Are you taking a standard DWC setup - with an established plant in flower - and adding a fog generator inside?

It looks like you have lowered the water level in the DWC? How low?

With two plants - how big is the tote, and where are you putting the fogger?

The roots and plants do look good!