Adventures in Hydro #2 - LP Aero/NFT mash-up - or - switching to HPA?

Indoor Growing Hydroponics
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#21

When building my room out this year I compared AA vs HPA and found I was able to put together a true HPA setup for a few hundred bucks, much less than what I had expected. The difference in cost to go to AA was huge – the nozzles alone are $50+ ea vs less than $1 ea for the Teften nozzles, and the difference in droplet size was minor. Buying the parts separately on Amazon you can do this pretty simply, I even have a parts list and photos of the build if that’d help.

This is the part of HPA that is so different from your LPA setup. I run 3 seconds on, 5 minutes off – this is how I end up with the fine root hairs you mentioned before. I never form droplets of water on the roots at all – pure mist at ~100psi. If I am forming drops I reduce the ON time, if they’re too dry between runs I reduce the OFF time. Of course this requires a second-accurate timer and you have to make sure the solenoids/driver you’re using are instant-on/off and don’t have a delay. (Cheap transformers take 1-2s to actually power up which doesn’t work in HPA, I learned that the hard way.)

You’ve got the proper testing/tweaking mindset it takes to run HPA, I’d love to see you jump in. :slight_smile:

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#22

Thanks for jumping in!! Getting details from AA guys is like pulling teeth and the HPA guys are not much better, but mostly there just are not that many guys doing HPA and even fewer doing AA.

I would love to see all the details you can send this way as far as hardware, pumps, solenoids, timers, etc - but especially on spray heads. The cheapest AA heads Ive seen so far are in the $25 range, but the company supplying them is iffy and the specs are mostly missing.

At the moment, I am thinking a pure siphon type AA setup - with no accumulators, will be reasonably priced. I can get a quiet compressor that will run one or possibly two spray heads for around $100. I have Sonoff timers that I can re-program to do 1 second timing - I think, so I would only need a good fast solenoid to drive the heads. I have all the plumbing parts other wise. Building a root chamber will be easy, but I still dont have a handle on how to size the chamber.

LOTS more reading to do - and begging guys for details :slight_smile:

#23

I am not sure if you’ll be able to use the same solenoids as I am since you’re looking into air, but these are what I use.

I am using the Aquatec 8800 as my primary pump.

For powering the solenoids I ended up going with an LED driver after much fighting with cheap transformers.

I was never able to find air spray heads for under $100 that would work. Either they were lacking specs, inconsistent sprays, clogged easy, or had some brass/copper inside. After much testing I found that using the Teften nozzles provided just as good of a quality mist as the more expensive setup, but at a small fraction of the cost. I run 4 nozzles per grow bed so 24 total, I didn’t want to drop $2400 on nozzles alone when I was able to buy all I needed (with tons of spares) for under $50.

Most of my expense with the system was ensuring I had an easy to use system. I have a check valve right after the pump to keep pressure up, and many valves to allow me to control flow, disable entire sections of the room, and bleed off pressure into a dump tank (for res changes).

For the root chamber I did my own experiments here. I saw a LOT of people using 4 and 6" fence posts, but that just didn’t seem like enough root mass for the way I like to grow. I ended up using utility sinks – they give me a massive area for roots and once I installed a root trellis I am seeing some pretty good spread. Time will tell after this run, though. :slight_smile:

For a bit of reference, here was my initial layout. (There were some tweaks once we got it all into the room, but most of it’s here.)

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#24

Thanks for the detailed info!! You have me flip-floping back and forth between AA and HPA now. The noisy spray heads might be an issue.

Tell me about the accumulator if you would. What is it made of and/or is it coated on the inside or does it have a bladder? Im concerned about nutes attacking any metals other than stainless.

Is it possible to build a DIY, safe, reliable accumulator? Thats one of the details that was leaning me towards AA - no accumulator needed other than an air tank - which I have.

#27

Im not finding any Tefen nozzles that look like yours. Are they the fog or spray type? Plastic? Do you have a model number by chance or a link?

#28

Are these the nozzles?

#29

What a difference a day makes. That root has grow a bunch! The other two clones still have not popped out any real roots, but they both have bunches of little white buds.

Yesterday:

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Today

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#30

No worries about the accumulator, they are air-pressurized bladder systems. My house uses a giant one to build pressure and I have one on the RO system under the sink as well. Very safe and no nutes exposed to metal.

I would not recommend it. Accumulators are basically pressure bombs – one small failure and they will explode. You can actually run the exact system I have w/o an accumulator but that will put extra strain on the pump itself to keep pressure. This way I can maintain 120psi at all times and the pump runs only about 5 times a day for 1min or so.

Yes those are the exact nozzles, they are plastic misting nozzles. Looking at the Tefen site I don’t see them any more, either.

I would stay as far away from Multiponics as possible. I used them because it made sense to me to spend a little extra for the ease of a single order. The problem is they take anywhere from 3-8 months to deliver anything (mine took 6 months and there are Facebook many reviews telling how everyone seems to have this issue).

You’re basically looking for nozzles like these, which are the same as mine w/o the 90 degree elbow attached.

Those roots really are starting to show on that 2nd clone. Nice work man, looking forward to following along.

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#31

Thanks for the new info!

That one clone, of the three, is doing far better than her sisters. Clone #2 is the runt of the three, and is showing a single root hair breaking free from the trunk. That one started out the biggest, and was from the top of the main branch of the mother, but the exacto knife slipped. The third clone is the largest of the three and its leaves look the best (all look crappy), but still only has white nubbins. They are getting slightly bigger each day though, so I think all three will root eventually.

Here is how they look last night and then again today. Im amazed at how fast the roots develop once they do break out from the nubbins.

1 last night

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1 today - the roots are getting to the point where I cant take the baby out of the net pot safely.

The runt today

3 today

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#32

Back to the aero discussion…

Ive given up on AA. The cost of a quiet air compressor combined with the $$$ mist heads is jut not gonna happen. Plus, the space for a compressor, an extra air tank, and an accumulator will cause space issues that will be very difficult to handle.

So, Im gonna try HPA and see how cheaply I can do it. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of components that can be built DIY.

I agree about the accumulator being a potential bomb. There is also the problem that compressed air will be in contact with the nutes all the time which could make fizzy water droplets and get absorbed over time. So Im gonna need a bladder type tank.

I found a thread where one person was using an espresso machine pump to drive his HPA setup. He had it operating for two years - until he let the rez run dry and melted the pump :slight_smile: I would be ok with 2 years of opperation for the low cost compared to diaphragm pumps.

Ive been reading HPA threads non-stop for the last 2 days and Im starting to get a handle - I think - on how the system needs to be setup, inexpensive components I can use, etc. One thing I do not have a clear idea on is how large the root chamber needs to be for one or two plants.

Do you have any suggestions on how to decide how big the chamber needs to be? Most everyone agrees a 5 gal bucket is too small, and the chamber needs to be fairly tall - but how tall and how wide?

I know I want to use the idea from a guy named Atomizer on RIU. He suggests using a fabric, or at least fabric lined, chamber. He likes the fabric from trampolines, but I am thinking of doing it his way using extra large, fabric smart pots.

The idea is that the roots will grow over to the fabric, and then when they try to grow through the sides or bottom, they get air trimmed automatically. Plus, the air circulating around the outside of the chamber will automatically help keep the root zone cool through evaporation of the excess water on the fabric.

This is especially important for the bottom of the chamber. If roots get to the bottom, they will tend to matt up and trap water or they will seek out any standing water from over spray. Those roots will not be true aero roots if they get into standing water. A fabric bottom in the chamber will allow any excess spray water to go through the fabric and will not make puddles. You need a second container below that to collect any runoff, but if things are dialed in closely enough, ther should be almost none. Thats why this is such a good way for doing drain to waste - there is almost no waste.

But I am still not clear on how large to make the chamber…more reading to do…

#33

Another possible source, Nylon in this case:

http://www.agrihouse.com/secure/shop/category.aspx?catid=9

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#34

This is sort of what I did except I was using a mesh as a root trellis to help spread them over the entire chamber. The fabric might be a good idea, though.

When I was researching my setup I noticed a lot of folks using those plastic fence posts in a SOG setup, but I knew I wanted HUGE roots and fewer plants.

I started with 5 gallon buckets for simplicity but found them too restricting to root growth.

I moved up to plastic totes like a lot of folks use but hated how flimsy the sidewalls were, and they were not going to be able to hold up the monster plants I was planning w/o building a structure around them.

I finally settled on the plastic utility sinks, they’re about 24x24x18 and hold 20 gallons and have the added benefit of a leakproof drain + perfectly angled bottom to prevent puddles.

Here’s a shot during the build to an idea of how they work for me.

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One thing I will note – I initially started with drain to waste but found it to be FAR more work than I expected. I spent more time adding water, checking nutes, and balancing ph than I ever did with my recirculating system. This run I made a quick shift to a hybrid system with HPA + my old E&F siphon back into the res. I’ll be doing some major reworking next time around ensure I get the massive benefits I’ve seen with my HPA while still keeping the ease res maintenance of my recirculating system.

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#35

Thanks for the link. I found some more nozzle recommendations last night and one of the details is that the nozzles work better if they are the No Drip type.

No Drip nozzles have internal spring loaded check valves that dont open until a pre-set pressure is reached, then they spring closed when the pressure drops to a lower level, but well before the pressure in the supply tube goes to zero.

For example, they might open at 60 PSI but close at 40 PSI. What this does is reduce or eliminate any pre-dripping or run-on spray at lower than optimum pressures. It takes some time for the pressure in the pipes to build up and drop down from the optimum pressure for good droplet size. Apparently, you can use/loose more water from run-on spray and/or pre-drips than you use in the spraying itself.

This is important for another reason too - droplet sizes are more consistent. The run-on and pre-drops are too big to promote good fuzzy aero roots.

Im currently thinking of trying either the red or white versions of these.

#36

I just heard back from Atomizer and this is his recommendation for chamber size and No Drip nozzles - its right in line with your choices.

Anti drip nozzles are the next best thing, response wise. to using a solenoid on each nozzle. When it comes to running drain to waste, mist run on can equate to more than the actual misting. Anti drip nozzles open at a set pressure and close at a lower pressure. Non anti drips will allow the line to pressurise and depressurise via the nozzles which impacts on the response and mist quality, they are not ideal for DTW because the spits and dribbles at the start and end of each misting cycle will add up to a lot of waste. As for chamber size, make it as big as the space will allow (within reason) and at least 16" deep then using the mist pattern of your chosen nozzles as a reference, figure the fewest number and best location that will provide full mist coverage for your planting layout. You shouldnt need more than 4 nozzles for a 2x2 (38 gal) chamber.

Im curious about all of this.

How were you doing the re-circulation and how much runnoff do you have to circulate?

Im also curious about why the D2W was so much trouble? I was under the impression that doing HPA with D2W was less trouble because you dont need to constantly check PH or EC the rez - mix it once and forget it until you need to re-fill? Also, Atomizer recommends no more than 1ml of spray per cycle per 100 L of chamber size, so there should be almost no runn-off anyway - I think? Im still trying to process everything Ive read recently, so I may be way off base…

#37

On another note - Im going to have to figure out a way to do time lapse of root growth. I dont know why, but Ive become obsessed with roots and root pics and I really like watching time lapse of grows. I have a short one of these clones durring the first several days, and I was amazed at how much moving, and waving of leaves they do when they think you’re not looking! :slight_smile:

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#38

Daily root pic up-date - because I cant resist…

Yesterday:

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Today:

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I didnt take a pic of #3. It is still in nubbin jail.

The leaves on all three look terrible, but there are lots of tiny little leaves starting that look much better.

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Im going to let these go a little longer, then try again with different technique and see if things improve.

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#39

hehehe I may be killing my webcam, but I couldnt resist. I wrapped it in a baggie as tightly as I could and stuck it in the root chamber. Not the greatest pics, but it will work.

Tomorrow I will dig out my underwater camera and try that.

Here are a couple of pics with the water running and off. I have the time lapse going to with shots every 1/2 hour.

Thats probably way too much light for the roots, and with the chamber all sealed up, there wasnt enough light for the cam to work, so I stuck a 3 watt light near an opening in the chamber to give just barely enough to activate the cam.

I cant get all three net pots in the frame at the same time, so ths will have to do for now. I may switch it around when #3 finally starts to pop real roots.

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#40

You need minimum 5 bar pressure, to make a 80 micron fog.
That is the droplet size, you are looking for if you truely want to bennefit from highpressure aeroponics.

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#41

Thanks for jumping in.

Thats pretty much in-line with other recommendations Ive been reading, although most seem to target 50 microns as the target size with a droplet size range from 30-80.

The coffee pump I Linked to above can do over 200 pounds. My plan at the moment uses that pump feeding into a 2 gallon accumulator that is rated to 130 pounds. I plan to run pressure cutoff at somewhere around 120-130 pounds. The feed will then go into a pressure reducer that drops it down to roughly 80 pounds. Thats the lowest recommended pressure for the new heads I found.

http://flsprayers.com/shop/tips-nozzles/hypro-afd-series/

Im still not clear on which exact one to use though - need to go back and re-read some old posts.

The accumulator and the pressure reducer allow thee pressure at the heads to be held constant as the pressure drops in the accumulator. It also drastically reduces the cycle times of the pump.

Are you running HPA? If so, Id love to see any pics you have and hear about your experiences :slight_smile:

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#42

I used to run HPA on large scale, back then I also designed and build HPA systems for other growers.

I would not go under 80 micron, due to cloging and I would use a easy change mister.
This type of foggermister is my favorite, it’s mounted on a mister foot and can be changed very easy when they clog.

Mister foot

The fogger mister is cone shaped, so you can press in into a PVC tube and it will stick.

Micro-Sprinkler-Equipment-Gardening-Misting-Sprinkler-With.jpg1465×1080 399 KB

My experiance with HPA is great, it’s the best commercial setup for indoor SOG growing.
It’s like driving a F1 Car, you can get incredible results if you know what your doing.
If not, you can crash and burn really fast.

It’s uforgiving, minor mistakes can very easy be very costly.
Once killed 650 plants 5 weeks in flower, in just a few hours, as my exhaust failed.
5 weeks of 15K watt power use, out the window is not a fun write off.
Had it been any other system, but aeroponics the plants would have been stunned not dead.

I know I might not be selling HPA very well, and I am not trying to discurage you from going into this.
Just saying the risk is as big as the reward, but everything have to be perfect.
If anything is off, temps, co2, nutes or nutrient temps. You will not bennefit much from your great effort, in running HPA and you will yeald the same as any other well grown hydro.

The reason why, I today just have a flowtable with drip fed hydroton.
Im only growing for the misses and I, no need to worry about mister cloggings, temp swings or if 1 min feeding every 5 min is better then 15 sek feedings every 3rd min.
If your growing for an income, it makes a lot of sence and is worth the time it takes to learn. And money put into trial and error, but expect some failures and be happy if they don’t come.

If you have any questions, just shoot. Aeroponics is my feild of expertice, and I’d be happy to help.
I’ll send u a link, but my old op was busted and I don’t feel comfy posting it public.

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