Adventures in Hydro #2 - LP Aero/NFT mash-up - or - switching to HPA?

Wow! That is awesome!! I have about a million questions, but lets start with those mister heads. I have not seen any like that. Do you have an idea where I can find a retailer and the specs - flow rate at various pressures, droplet size etc?

In that grow picture, it looked like there were horizontal pipes roughly 1 foot in diameter, with spray heads top mounted in between every other plant?

Was that drain to waste?

What were the aprox on/off cycle times?

How were the heads driven - accumulator tanks, and solenoids, or some other system?

Im putting together some parts lists and drawings for a possible system that I can maybe afford to build. I will post thse shortly, and let you pick them apart :smiley:

I understand that this is going to be a challenge - thats the best part for me :slight_smile: Its obvious after some searching, that HPA, and especially AA, is not for everyone. Very few people are doing it from what I can see. There must be a reason for that :slight_smile:

I guess I need to change the name of this thread - or start a new one. There are more posts on HP aero than LP :slight_smile:

First, tonights clone root report. Im still amazed at how fast these roots are growing.


Im going to keep this LP system running until I actually get parts to start the HPA build. Im thinking I will probably toss these three out in a few more days at most and start three new ones while changing some of the details. The idea will be to see if I can get them to root faster.

At the moment, Im thinking my biggest screw ups on the first go were:

  1. not letting the freshly cut stems sit in water long enough before dipping them in rooting powder. It seems to me you need to wait until the stems can adjust to the new situation of having no roots and taking in water direct from the stem - maybe.

  2. I also think my extra long ‘dry times’ slowed things down. Im going to start off with a 1 minute ON x 5 minute OFF cycle.

In the mean time, I will continue planning and running the numbers on an HPA setup.

Oh - I will try to get a timelapse of root growth posted up soon - its amazing to me.

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The misters I used where from Israel, but there are others who make simular misters.
Here is one, they should also be world wide.

You will need a different mister foot and look at their catalog, they claim to have a 55 micron mister at 4 bar.
But I would look for a 80 micron, I have done as high as 100 micron with minimal difference in growth.
http://www.naandanjain.com/products/micro-sprinklers/misters-foggers/fogger/

Aeroponics is recirculation, misted into the tubes and it flows back to the res. Remember to get a tilt on the tubes, that they drain well between waterings. The tubes I used where 6" diameter, and yes on a SOG setup like that one mister can cover 2 plants. On smaller systems, you often use more misters to releave pressure.

Watering times is a huge debate, I ran 1 min every 5 min light on, 1 min every 30 min lights off.
I used these kinda pumps, dunno what they are called in english.

They can handle the many on and off cycles, if you know how to build a solenoid setup. That can be used for smaller systems, I have always just used big pumps and grown alot of plants.

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Excellent - thanks! Those particular misters seem to be intended for commercial or large scale growers only. The minimum quantity from the US distributor is 100ea. That would give me lots of spares though :slight_smile:

Yeah, sorry didn’t think of that but 100 misters should not cost a fortune.
I had spare misters for a compleate room, then change them all between grows.
That way you can limit cloggings, also be sure to add a 120 micron disc filter and flush it often.

I used to work in the greenhouse industry, so I brought everything wholesale.
Thouse 100 misters, will prolly not cost u more then 20 would in a Grow shop for potheads :wink:

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I think Im going to start off with a slightly different approach than the horizontal tubes. I dont think I really have room to do that efficiently in my tiny tent, plus I really want to try the drain to waste thing. The idea of NOT having to mess with constant PH and EC adjustments is really appealing.

Here is a crude flow diagram for how I think I want to set it up. Id appreciate any feed back on it.

I have left off details like couplings, T’s, shut off valves, and minor parts to drain the accumulator and rez, etc. I also didn’t draw in the pressure gauge. I may go with two – one before and one after the pressure reducer. Im going to need to monitor, and adjust both of those while dialing things in, and two gauges will make that easier. Gauges are one of the cheaper parts. Im also considering one of those inexpensive BluLab dual probe TDS meters to monitor the TDS of the runoff, and the supply water.

From my reading, it seems that there is a close interaction between almost all the parts. Which, and how many heads you choose, for example, depends on the pressure ranges available from the pump and cutoff switch, the root chamber size, and shape, pressure differentials at the reducer, where and how many solenoids, etc etc.

I don’t really fully grasp all the theory behind this, but I think I am kind of, more or less, almost in the ball park. I’ll post my preliminary parts list later.

This is how my tent will be laid out.

My grow tent is in my hobby room, so space is limited. Its 28”deep x 38” wide x 48” tall - inside dimensions. It sits on top of my wood work bench which is 30” above the floor. My current rez, pumps, carbon filters and misc stuff is all under the bench at the moment and most of that will need to move for the new layout.

My current thinking is to cut a 24” round hole in the top of the bench/floor of the tent, and hang a 30 gallon fabric smart pot below the table. The cut-out will have an insulated foam top on it with cutouts for net pots, to start and grow clones or seeds. I will only grow a max of two plants at a time to harvest from now on – in a SCROG setup. I may start several seeds or clones, and then just keep the two best ones to finish the grow.

This layout will keep the root chamber mostly insulated from hi tent temps and should allow me to keep root chamber temps at no more than the low 70’s at most. I really like Atomizer’s ideas of doing HPA drain to waste as well as his ideas for using a fabric root chamber that can air prune the roots if/when they get to the sides or bottom of the chamber.

The fabric pots I’m looking at are 30 gallon pots 24” in diameter x 16” tall. I can easily make them taller by cutting up, and stitching on another pot, so any height is possible as long as its less than the 30” I have under the table. That means I can have a circular root chamber 24” in diameter, with fabric sides and bottom, that is anywhere from under 30 gallons, up to maybe 50 gallons if need be, for no extra money – the pots come 5 to a bundle. These pots are not quite light proof, so a light shield, that also allows for good air circulation outside the pots, will be necessary. The air circulation will be dry room air for evaporative cooling of the chamber. Also, you need dry air to prune the roots or they will just keep growing through the fabric. I already have materials for that and the catch basin.

I am still almost clueless as far as how many heads, where to place them, how to point them, cycle times, etc. Ive been ‘doing the math’ on spray times, flow rates, chamber volumes, etc, but Im not at all confident I have done it correctly. I’ll post those later. For the moment, I am thinking two No Drip Hypro heads will be about right – maybe – but that is really vague guess work on my part.

Im trying to come up with a list of parts that will keep me under $300 - preferably well under - but Im still working on that.

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Ive been worried about clogging. Lots of folks report that problem, but most of them seem to also be re-circulating. Ive read some recent reports of folks using filters in the 100 micron range that do drain to waste without recirculating. They report far fewer clogs, but still recommend having easy access and easy change misters. I think I will try a pre-filter in the rez, then feed to a 100 micron filter before the pump.

It looks like it would cost me around $50-$60 shipped for the ones you listed. The ones I linked to above are around $3 ea, and the first ones were about $1.50ea, so they fit my budget a lot better :slight_smile:

Run to waste hydroponics in my world is for coco or hempy bucket, that holds the majority of the nutrient solution.
Drain to waste will cost a fortune in nutes!

Clogging is not a huge issue, just a thing to be aware of. Another reason multiple misters for each plant, isnt an bad idea as one might clog but it wont kill the plant.

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If I can get this to work the way Atomizer says it can, there is supposed to be almost zero waste. He is proposing very short, but frequent mist cycles. The idea being to keep the environment as constant as possible in the root chamber rather than a wet/dry cycle.

His target daily usage for a root chamber similar to what I want to do is about 1.3 liters/day in the early growth stages and about 2.5 liters/day in flower. That requires ON times of 1 second or so with intervals of 30 seconds to 1.5 minutes.

If we assume the 2.5 liter/day number, thats only 17 liters, or 4.4 gallons per week. I go through about 3 times that amount with my recirculating system just by doing a rez change every 7 to 10 days. Plus, he claims I will need to run the nutes at about 1/4 strength compared to what Im running now.

I can mist for much longer times or at higher rates than he proposes, and still save money on nutes over my current costs. Im using Mega Crop at fairly low concentrations now - EC 1.3 - so costs/grow are not hi anyway.

Which reminds me - what EC/TDS do you recommend for running that horizontal pipe system? Ive read all sorts of different recommendations from a PPM of 300 up to 3000!

Here is the parts list so far.
The filter: $8

The pump: $25
This pump is probably the most controversial thing on the list. It’s a solenoid pump or vibrating pump from an espresso machine. They have enough flow to work and a max pressure of over 200 psi. They can last a long time though, and the price is very appealing. The one grow thread where I found this, it lasted two years before the guy let his rez run dry and melted the pump.

Check valve: $9

Pressure switch to control the Ukla pump: $19

2 gallon accumulator: $45

Pressure reducer to drop the accumulators 130 psi down to the 80 psi range: $13

Pressure relief valve: $23

Solenoids – I plan to use one on each spray head, so I need two of these I think: $15 for two

No Drip Spray heads – these are the nicer ones I think: $6 for two
https://www.dultmeier.com/products/0.811.833/9844#

Pressure gauge: $14

Timer – This one does 0.1 second timeing and its simple to use it to operate a solid state relay to drive the solenoids. The programmer and timer cost $23

The solid state relay: This one is way over kill: $ 13
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075L5X5CT/?coliid=I1D44DMEVJNYZG&colid=19CTNL8CVWP6J&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

I will also need a hand full of ¼” push fit tubing, elbows, couplings and cut off valves. That should all come to less than $20

The 30 gallon fabric pots – 5ea : $20

I would also like one of these HM TDS monitors: $20

I think I have all the small misc items I will need to finish it off.
This all totals to - $ 273.00.

If I can make the room for it, I would like to go up to the 5 gallon version of the accumulator. Its only an extra $ 17 and would allow for much lower cycle times on the pump. The smaller one will fit perfectly where I want to put it….

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Final report for these three clones - all three rooted!! So, it took forever, but I had 100% success - sort of. The plants still look like crap, so Im not counting this any kind of huge success. More like getting away with it - barely :slight_smile:

Sometime in the next day or so I will start three new ones with the changes I mentioned above and see if I can improve anything.

I think its interesting that one cloe rooted in the center of the stem first, one at the very top and one at the bottom. That probably doesnt mean anything though.

3 - late to the show. This one probably rooted a couple of days ago and I just missed it.

2

and my favorite daughter #1

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Just for reference, these are what the leaves look like. They are terrible, but a little better looking than yesterday.

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I spent a lot of time last year talking with Atomizer and following his direction on building my system. I was just like you – loved the thought of low nute usage, no messing with pH/EC daily, and running to waste so I could eliminate junk flowing back into the res.

My reality was much different, though.

Initially the girls started showing signs of underwatering, so I had to increase the cycle times. It took a lot of playing to get them happy when they were little and it used a lot more water than expected. Because it was D2W I was losing all of that runoff, which in turn meant I had to add more to the res daily. Since I was adding new water constantly I never could get the EC/pH balanced – about the time I would get things settled enough water had run through that I had to start over again with the balancing act. I found myself spending 2-3x as much time in the room playing with water and timings.

At this point I was starting to realize how much nutrients I was flushing away and decided to reinstall my siphon to recirculate the water. (I set the E&F portion to only be the bottom 1" of the beds – so the whole upper is still HPA.) Of course the siphon needs a certain amount of flow before it’ll fire, so I needed to add water to the beds to make this happen. I just redirected my water cooler flow into the beds for now, which has worked for this run, but I’m still not 100% happy. There will be a lot more mods once I harvest these girls.

Every system is different, which plays havoc on the math. With me running such large beds I use 4 nozzles each, one in each corner facing inwards. This ensured I had enough mist on all sides of the root zone and if one got clogged I didn’t lose the entire plant. The root ball on mine are about 12" around near the top and cover the entire 24" square at the bottom. I think next time I will change how the root trellis works, which should help.

I still believe that HPA is the way to go, but root dissection after harvest will be the tell-all. (With the dual-zone system I can compare how the upper HPA roots look vs the lower E&F roots.)

I agree here wholeheartedly. I never got my system 100% dialed in last run, which is why I made the changes I did. (Had to get through this run.) Next time I will spend some more time on things to get it “just right”, but whatever I do I will never again run D2W. :slight_smile:

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Interesting. Im going to have to go back and re-read your earlier posts, but I have to run do some chores now…

Did you do build/grow thread anywhere with pics and details?

Quick question of your setup - so your draining those sink/tubs into another container and then using the siphon to drain that back into the rez?

Not yet unfortunately. I’ve got everything documented on my side, but I still need to organize and type it all up. I’ll try and get to that this weekend…

Not exactly. Wish I could draw pictures, but alas I’m a programmer not an artist. :slight_smile:

Initially the drain from each grow bed was tied into a single pipe that went to a P-trap and onto my septic. When I got rid of D2W I kept the shared drain but replaced the P-trap with the siphon that drains back into the res.

So now when I add water to the beds it actually fills the entire drain up to the siphon and the bottom inch of each sink before the siphon fires and recirculates the water back through the system.

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Oh, ok. Thanks.

I looked back at your old posts and if you are running 24 heads in the 100 psi range, thats a lot more than I am planning.

I started to say that with 3 second ON times, that you were using a lot more nutes than Atomizer recommends, but you had 5 minute OFF times. I have not done the math, but that should have more than equalized it. Your On times are longer than his, but your off times are longer yet.

Did you try very short times - 1 second or less - with shorter off times? If so, how did that go? I forget, but I think he was saying roughly 1 sec (or less) on and between 60 and 90 seconds off?

Looking forward to that!

Two days ago, I started three new clones in the tent. Im running these on a 1 minute On and 5 minutes OFF schedule. The nutes are at PH 5.8 and EC 200.

The other change was I left the fresh cut stems in water for maybe 15 minutes before I messed with them. Then, after I put the rooting powder on them, I let them sit for about 3 minutes before putting them in the cloner. I figured that would give the stems time to suck up some of the powder before it all got washed off in the first spray.

The root camera idea hasnt worked out as well as I hoped. A large number of the images are too blurry due to water flowing or drops left in front of the lens. Plus, my sandwich bag idea for a water proof housing didnt work that well either. I pulled out the webcam and it was soaked! It still works after drying it out, but I dont want to press my luck. My under water cam wont talk to my windows 10 laptop any more either. The drivers no longer work and I have not found any new ones - that work - for the capture device Im using - EasyCap. It seems there are many variations on this cheap piece of junk and they all require different drivers…

I also ordered most of the parts I will need to build an HPA setup. They should all be here over the next two weeks or so. Then the fun can begin!

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I like that idea, though. I’ll keep my eyes open for a deal…

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When I built my underwater camera, I had no problem getting it to work with my sonar mfd, but I couldnt get any apps for my android phone, or my windows 7 laptop to work. I finally ordered the EasyCap converter, and it worked perfectly on everything - until I got a new phone and up-graded to windows 10. Now, the only thing it works with is my sonar.

I could dig the Garmin out of the boat box, rig up a 12 volt supply and use it to record, but there are no time lapse options on my sonar :slight_smile:

Every once in a while I do a search for new drivers, but 99.99999% of the time, I dont have much use for an under water camera in my work room, so I wasnt very motivated :slight_smile:

Im going to have to look for drivers again or maybe just see about getting a newer EasyCap or similar device.