Adventures in Hydro #2 - LP Aero/NFT mash-up - or - switching to HPA?

[anon32470837]

Thanks once again for all the help and information you guys are offering!!!

My order of AN nutes arrived today, so Im busy cleaning out the rez for the switch over.

I am still hopeful of some sort of fix for the mega crop though…

Oh - I tried the test @MicroDoser suggested - covering the water surface in the rez to see how that effected the PH rise. It did seem to slow it down a good bit, but didnt stop it. The rez went from 5.5-5.6 to 5.9 after 12 hours, so thats several tenths less rise. After 24 hours, it was 6.3, so not much over all improvement. That does seem to indicate some sort of C02 exchange thing going on though.

more later - Im mixing…

[Tinytuttle]

@anon32470837

By the way, what the heck happened to the weight of water???

Last time I checked - dont ask how long ago that was - 1 cc of water weighed exactly 1 gram! It was an agreed upon international standard - or so I thought.

Great looking thread @anon32470837 not sure if you found your answer yet but working with analytical balances myself for Tyson weight of water per gram is very temperature dependent not sure the exact temp but 60-70 degrees area is I believe but leaning more towards 60.

[anon32470837]

Yeah, its called STP - Standard Temperature and Pressure. All measurements are assumed to be conducted at, or corrected to a standard. When I was in school, the standard was 25C/77F. Here is a definition I found with a quick Google. Looks like they have been messing with this one too! Or my memory is going bad - again!

STP: It is defined to be 273 K (0° Celsius) and 1 atm pressure (or 105 Pa). The definition of standard state conditions specifies 1 atm of pressure, that liquids and gases be pure, and that solutions be at 1 M concentration. Temperature is not specified, although most tables compile data at 25°C (298 K).

[anon32470837]

I got the rez cleaned up and started a new batch of RO water and the AN PH Perfect nutes. So far, it’s working great!.

I started off following the recommendation from their mixing calculator. The PH initially settled at 5.6 and stayed there. The EC was a bit over 1.3, which is higher than I like, so I diluted it down to 1.1. The PH stayed constant at 5.6.

I checked the water from the accumulator tank shortly after filling it, and it was reading 5.7.

Its been about 10 hours and the PH in the rez is still 5.6. The PH in the accum tank is still 5.7.

So, for some reason the PH is still going up slightly in the pressure tank when its first filled, but a LOT less than before, and so far, its holding steady - as is the rez. This is excellent!!

Also interesting, there was no noticeable fizz, or cloudiness when I drew water from the accum tank this morning. So, either I have flushed out all the trapped air, or there was something else going on with the mega crop/calmag.mix.

I did a much more thorough cleaning job this time in the rez and found a good bit of brown, semi slimy/gritty build up inside the aquarium pump I use to circulate the water as well as on the rez walls, and other tubing. Ive seen this before, but to a much lower degree. I wish I knew of this was dead (I hope) algae crap or am I getting the same build up some others have reported with Mega Crop? I still have never seen any precipitation when using Mega Crop even when Ive left it mixed up in glass containers or plastic jugs for days. My water has been changing over the last several months, so without lab tests I dont know how to answer that. It will be interesting to see if the same build up comes back with the AN nutes.

[Doulovebeef]

glad the ph decided to stabilize for ya, at least so far.

not sure about the brown goo. since you cleaned everything, and switched to AN well see if it comes back. should only take a few days to find out. keep an eye on ph, if goo comes back and ph goes wonky the two are connected.

edited cuz im high af and misread a sentence…

[anon32470837]

The AN Ph perfect really is PH perfect - at least in my rez where the water never touches a root. Its been almost 24 hours and the rez is still holding at 5.6.

I’ve been stirring the solution for one minute out of every ten. Im not doing that to aerate it this time. Its because I read something on the AN website about the solution “settling” over time. Im not real happy with it having something that can settle out. Im worried I will be catching that in the filters or plugging up the nozzles or it will build up sediment in my accumulator tank. There is n way to ‘stirr’ the water in the accumulator tank.

Have to wait and see about that I guess. In the mean time, I will flush the accumulator tank every time I top off the rez. Thats going to be happening more often now that the plant is drinking more. Im up to a flow rate of 4.9 liters/day or almost 1.3 gallons/day. Im still getting almost zero runnoff. The roots are drinking almost all of it.

The nutes in the accumulator tank have gone up to 5.8 when first drawn, but then it climbs to 5.9 and stays there after an hour or so. There is zero sign of fizz in the water.

I have no clue what mechanism could be causing the PH to go up virtually the instant it gets pressurized, and then have it go up again after its de-pressurized and then stay there. Its like pressurizing the water/nute ,mix shifts the buffer range in some manner?

Its possible there is still some of the old water in the tank that has not been fully flushed, so I will continue to track this and see if it changes over time.

@Northern_Loki

Also, there are some precipitants (as previously discussed by others in the MC thread).

Ive been thinking about this. I have seen zero sign of precipitates in the solutions I have mixed up.

I have a 1 gal jug with well water + calmag, mixed at EC 1.2 that has been sitting for four or five months. The solution is perfectly clear, other than the light brown tint, and there is nothing collecting on the bottom of the jug or on the surface of the mix. Thats the way its always been for my setups.

The longest I have let a Mega Crop RO mix sit has been just a few days, but I have still seen no precipitation or scum or any sign of anything floating in the water. Just a slight tint at my EC levels.

On the other hand, I have had brown, sort of scummy, sort of gritty, build ups on the inside of the rez, and in/on pipes, pumps etc,. However, I have been attributing that build-up to algae growth. Until just recently, I have had really bad light discipline and was not very careful keeping light out of the rez.

The Mega Crop guys mentioned that it was possible something in some peoples water was reacting with something in the Mega Crop and growing? The differing reactions are interesting.

[anon32470837]

The plant and the roots continue to grow well. There has been a nice addition of new fuzzy roots all over the root mass, so I think Im doing ok on timing.

However - the roots keep growing! I still have maybe 4 to 5 weeks of flower time left. Im starting to worry the roots will out grow the chamber or cut off all water flow between the top and bottom of the chamber. I never expected them to fill a space 24" in diameter and 46 gallons of volume!

Here are some recent pics and a new root tour video. The video is the best way to judge the coloring. The pics still show too much brown compared to naked eye viewing.

I tried some narration of the video. It didnt work too well with me just winging it. Most of my comments come just a little to late so you are already looking at the next part while Im talking about something that just left the screen

This is a comparison shot from two days ago to today. Things are filling in nicely in front and lots of new fuzzies all over. This is too soon to be caused by the switch to AN nutes. This is just happening as I increase the flow rate by very small amounts.

The plant looks good too. Just barely starting to show some frost. Its now 15 days into 12/12.

[anon32470837]

@Doulovebeef

not sure about the brown goo. since you cleaned everything, and switched to AN well see if it comes back. should only take a few days to find out. keep an eye on ph, if goo comes back and ph goes wonky the two are connected.

Yup, I will be watching that closely for that exact reason.

I have been vaguely aware of the crud in the rez for a while, but Ive been discounting it as a possible source of the problem. Everything Ive read so far says that biological crud in the system shifts the PH down, and mine always goes up.

I should be able to tell soon I would think.

[MicroDoser]

Glad you found some stable nutes. I suspected that might help.

[Northern_Loki]

@anon32470837

Everything Ive read so far says that biological crud in the system shifts the PH down

I wouldn’t discount that. I’d “think” (dangerous) that it could be in either direction depending on what type of bacteria and what they are converting. If that’s what it is. Perhaps one is more prevalent over the other in hydro, idk.

Not perfectly related, but here is an interesting graph of aerobic bacteria nitrification, aeration, and PH (in wastewater systems):

[1]

[Northern_Loki]

@anon32470837

Ive been thinking about this. I have seen zero sign of precipitates in the solutions I have mixed up.

I’ve seen it a couple of times. Mostly when I’m purposefully trying to see what it’ll do. E.g. increasing the temperature, letting it sit stagnant.

@anon32470837

On the other hand, I have had brown, sort of scummy, sort of gritty, build ups

Gritty sounds like a chemical (insoluble) precipitant. I’d think scummy could be either biological or a very fine precipitant.

In the related buffering thread, I’ve visually noted precipitants with the increase of PH somewhere after 7.0. Could also be occurring at a lower PH and at a slower rate. I’ll probably need to pay closer attention to that since it is a bit lower than I was expecting. Still getting a baseline feel on that overall. It may not be obvious (at the PH we like to see) if the solution is recirculating, it’ll take on a bit of cloudiness.

[anon32470837]

@Northern_Loki

I wouldn’t discount that. I’d “think” (dangerous) that it could be in either direction depending on what type of bacteria and what they are converting. If that’s what it is. Perhaps one is more prevalent over the other in hydro, idk.

Very interesting info you posted.

Looking back at some of my results, things happen in my rez that dont seem to happen in the outside samples, so its very possible that build up is a major part of the problem. Unfortunately, Im sure any build up is also now in my feed lines, accumulator tank, etc. The only way to get that stuff off was to scrub it, so I dont know how I will clean the system out. Not going to worry about it for now. I’ll look at that after I harvest this crop.

@Northern_Loki

Gritty sounds like a chemical (insoluble) precipitant. I’d think scummy could be either biological or a very fine precipitant.

It doesnt really feel hard or sharp edged like sand. More like very firm, very tiny little bits mixed in with the slimy parts, but thats a purely subjective assessment.

I posted my notes on the precipitation I saw in my sample in the other thread as well. Mine could have just been contamination, so I started a new sample.

[anon32470837]

Up-date on the AN nutes.

Its been two days since I mixed up the AN nutes.

The rez PH has gone up to 5.7 and water drawn from the accum tank is at 6.0.

After sitting out for a few hours, the sample from the accumulator tank has gone up even more - its at 6.3.

So, pressurizing the AN nutes raises the PH just like with Mega Crop - but to a lesser degree. The interesting thing to me is that once it is out of the tank and allowed to sit, the PH goes up even more. Somehow presurizing the mix is changing the alkalinity in addition to the PH?

Or - could this be further reactions from scum buildup in the accum tank?

I drained the accumulator tank back into the rez. After circulating for a while, the PH stabilized at 5.9.

I decided to try increasing the concentration of the AN nutes up to the recommended level, so I added some more to bring up the EC to 1.3. That dropped the PH down to 5.8.

I then added some PH down to get to 5.6 in the rez and then flushed and re-filled the accumulator tank with the 5.6 solution. I drew a sample from the accum tank about 30 minutes later and it was reading 5.7.

I’ll check everything again in the morning.

Plants and roots continue to look good.

Oh, just for the heck of it, I decided that if Im not using pool shock or copper I may as well shoot some bennies on the roots, so I mixed up some of the Garden Friendly stuff and sprayed the roots directly. I will repeat that daily for a while and see if it helps anything.

[MicroDoser]

@anon32470837

Somehow presurizing the mix is changing the alkalinity in addition to the PH?

Did a quick google and found a cryptic answer from someone who seems to know what they are talking about, although I do not. Bolding is mine.

"pH is basically the negative log of the H+ concentration.

And this H+ concentration is in equilibrium with the conjugate base.

Now pressure will effect this equilibrium concentration based on le chateliers principle. Refer to that if need."

It seems ‘Le Chatelier’s principle states that if a “stress” is placed on a system that is at equilibrium, the system will shift in such a way to relieve that stress.’

This stress can be changes in pressure, or changes in solution concentration, or heat.

When you increase pressure for your nozzles, you will be increasing heat also, if only for a moment. This will start a change based on this principle it seems, then reducing pressure and heat once sprayed will cause another change.

Typed this as I discovered it but it might be a thing to account for or which could explain odd results?

[anon32470837]

@MicroDoser

Typed this as I discovered it but it might be a thing to account for or which could explain odd results?

Thanks for finding that!! More for me to read up on…

So, it could be just the pressure itself causing the PH swing, and/or it could be algae or other bio crap building up in the system - which may also be reacting to the pressure changes.

On the one hand, I am enjoying this adventure very much. Im learning a ton of new and interesting stuff. On the other hand, Im really getting tired of running into more things I dont know and have no good/easy/cheap way to resolve or figure out!

I wish I had a cousin who worked for a good analytical lab who owed me a bunch of favors. I could get him/her to tell me whats in my well and RO water, and how it changes after pressurizing, and what the brown crap is on my roots and what the slim/grit stuff really is. That sure would help with planning how to proceed.

If I can come up with a way to pressurize some other samples, I will try some other experiments… gotta run…

[anon32470837]

Ok, I have another interesting data point - but - again, Im not certain what this is telling me.

To re-cap - the AN Ph Perfect stuff did pretty well at holding the PH down in the rez for two days, then it started to go up slightly from 5.6 to 5.7 or so.

Water from the pressure tank has gone from 5.8 to 6.1 over the same time. That same water left to stand, continues to go up to 6.2-6.3 or so.

So, I flushed the pressure tank water back into the rez and the PH in the rez went up to 5.9 and stayed there.

Apparently what ever is happening in the pressure tank is permanent and raises the buffer level in the rez when mixed back in.

I added PH down to lower the PH back to 5.6, and it rose again to 5.9 in just a few hours - but - I forgot to turn off the circulating pump, so it was running full time.

The question is - did the water from the accumulator tank cause the PH rise or was it the circulating pump running full time?

So a the I decided to try PH down again, but NOT flush the accumulator tank back into the rez. I also turned off the pump except for the one minute out of ten to keep it mixed.

The PH has stayed down for the last 8 hours and is still at 5.6.

Im leaning towards something in the accumulator tank being the issue. Most likely seems to be ‘gunk’ build up. Algae, bacteria, organics from the nutes???

On another note - the filter I have on the circulating pump was getting pretty clogged up. This is happening at about the same rate as it did for Mega Crop, but the color is a little more dark brown than Mega Crop. It also has a slightly shiny sheen to it where the Mega Crop was more flat brown.

I took some shots with my USB scope. of the build up on the 150 mesh silk screen.

This is a closeup of some of it smeared on some paper.

I cant tell anything from those pics other than this stuff is large enough to get caught in the 150 mesh.

I removed and cleaned the filter, but Im now wondering if Im removing valuable nutrients by doing that?

[anon32470837]

Plant and root up-date: both are doing well, but Im getting more worried about the roots over growing the chamber every day. I still have 5 or 6 weeks to go in flower. The roots are now touching the walls of the chamber on maybe 50% of the circumference.

They are also growing along the roof of the chamber. They seem to be growing under layers of black duck tape, then popping out further along the tape. There is a seam in the foam that the tape is covering, so Im assuming the roots got into that seam somewhere. It looks kind of cool.

Looking at it from that angle, it does have a sort of inverted cone shape after all. Its not the same as Atomizers cone. Mine is more like an umbrella than an acute cone, but it still looks pretty good to me. Most of the brown crap is being buried by new white, fuzzy growth, so I think thats very good.

Im just worried about the chamber getting toooooo full.

Here are some captures from the videos.

You can see the roots starting to grow along the chamber walls. The roots were still about 2" away in this spot two days ago.

Back side of the net pot.

Its hard to see clearly, but the root mat on the floor is climbing the sides of the chamber. I wonder of the umbrella will merge with the floor mat by the time I am ready to harvest?

The plant looks a little pale up top, but other wise good. About time to thin things out again.

They have grown almost 2" since yesterday.

Looks to me like my plant and roots dont give a crap about PH problems - or maybe they like PH problems??? Either way, I like the newest progress.

Hmmmm I wonder of the Garden Friendly fungus bennies have anything to do with this new progress or maybe the AN nutes or I just hapen to have really good timing now?

I sure wish I could have several controls setup and running at the same time so I could pin things down better. When you are making changes in several different areas at the same time, there is no good way to tell what is causing what.

[BudSy]

They usually only gain extra root mass for the first few weeks of flower. Then they almost stop. Cos they get too busy building bud

[anon32470837]

Oh - timing is now 0.8/43 seconds for an over all flow rate of 1.34 GPD. Now that the OFF timing is getting so short, Im having to make smaller adjustments each time. I was doing 10 second jumps, then I went down to 5 second jumps, but now Im doing 2 second jumps.

Im keeping the ON time at 0.8 still. That seems to be a good number. It also fits in with Atomizers flow rate recommendations, but Im very close to his maximum. Im at 0.056 where he lists the max as 0.06 ml/gallon of chamber volume per ON cycle.

[anon32470837]

@BudSy

They usually only gain extra root mass for the first few weeks of flower. Then they almost stop. Cos they get too busy building bud

Thanks - I sure hope so! I am not looking forward to adding more nozzles!