Adventures in Hydro #2 - LP Aero/NFT mash-up - or - switching to HPA?

[MicroDoser]

@BudSy

They usually only gain extra root mass for the first few weeks of flower. Then they almost stop. Cos they get too busy building bud

This is why I love the cutting I have stuck with for nearly 20 years now. Branches a lot with no topping, keeps on putting out lots of roots well into week 5. Incredibly mould resistant (RH% can be over 90% with mould forming on the walls with no issues). And can produce 1.3GPW using HPS in 11 weeks including veg time. According to a report I had one time when I got arrested it manages 27% THC too.

When I first got it, I spent about a year watching it grow and saying to myself “That’s mental”.

Took me three years to tame it so it would behave in my system without just completely overgrowing it.

I have a plan for this year to get out the colloidal silver and try to hermie it to get some S1 seeds, because this is not a plant I would want to lose. I would be interested to see what you could do in an HPA system with one

@anon32470837

I sure wish I could have several controls setup and running at the same time so I could pin things down better. When you are making changes in several different areas at the same time, there is no good way to tell what is causing what.

I have had a dream of having a 9 pot system where the pot in the middle runs the best settings from the last run and left to right has one change, front to back has another so you could test two variables, and combinations, to get better settings for next time. 9 different sets of settings in the same room would allow rapid development of the grow space. Obviously, all controlled by a computer for stability and consistency.

Then a grid of three by three of those for 81 plants in different environments (temperature and RH%). You could get some work done with that in a year!

But I can’t.

Reality has other ideas. So I, like you, have the one space and so any changes must be carefully considered and made in absence of a control.

[anon32470837]

Sorry for the slow response - kidney stones.

Wow, you’ve been growing from the same cutting for that long?!? Thats amazing to me. I barely kept three clones alive through ONE summer!

More later, but I have to toot my own horn a bit before my pills kick in and I go back to bed. This is just to cheer me up, Im am not bragging…

I am proud to announce that I have invented a new, hi-tech, guaranteed to work better than anything you have ever seen before, way to grow weed.

I call it the Hi-Pressure Aeroponic Inverted Black Duct Tape Technique. HPAIBDTT for short

I have not decided yet if the duct tape should be considered a new type of medium or a new type of container, but either way, the roots love the crap out of duct tape. I may add several more rows of tape next grow!

Six days ago.

Today:

[anon32470837]

Actually, those roots started going nuts after I moved the nozzles to the top of the chamber. The chamber ceiling is now staying wet and getting a lot more misting than it was before.

[anon32470837]

Oh - the PH perfect stuff is doing well and holding PH at 5.7 still. It seems to do fine IF I dont drain anything back from the accumulator tank.

Mean time, the PH in the accumulator tank is trending down very slightly. It has been at 6.1 at first and now its 6.0. Its still too hi for me, but its trending in the right direction. No clue why.

[SuperiorBuds]

That’s awesome. It always amazes me how roots will find every drop of moisture they can track down. It’s almost like the duct tape is acting as a root trellis for you up there.

[anon32470837]

It seems like the rate the plant is drinking has been slowly but steadily increasing every day. I have not had to empty the drain pan in close to two weeks. It was just staying about the same level or filling very slooowly, but now the water level is dropping even when I dont drain it. So evaporation is more than keeping up with my runoff.

That combined with things looking a hair dry has made me increasing the flow rate again. I decided to try upping the ON time from 0.8 to 0.9. Im now at 0.9/46. That has me up to 1.4 gals/day total flow.

I also decided to do a close up look at the hairs. Over all, they look good, but as usual, not all of them are that way. There is a wide range of quality and quantity as far as white fuzzies. Here are the latest set up close up pics.

This is one of the larger root stems near the net pot - maybe 1/4" diameter. The brown crap is clearly visible.

[anon32470837]

@Northern_Loki

I wouldn’t discount that. I’d “think” (dangerous) that it could be in either direction depending on what type of bacteria and what they are converting. If that’s what it is. Perhaps one is more prevalent over the other in hydro, idk.

I am reluctantly coming to the conclusion that you are correct on that.

Based on my tests with Mega Crop samples and how the AN PH Perfect nutes are behaving, the only thing that makes sense is that there is something biological driving these PH swings - and its in my rez and system.

The AN nutes in the rez are no longer able to hold PH. I did a rez change day before yesterday, and the PH isnt holding worth a crap. Its rising slower than with Mega Crop, but still going up faster each day.

I did several samples of Mega Crop in mason jars. The ones left open to the air turn cloudy within hours and the PH starts to go up. The ones that stay sealed stay clear and the PH sloooooooowly drifts up.

Turns out its the same for the AN nutes, just slower to react. Im assuming the buffer holds things steady as long as it can, but then its game over.

The Mega Crop had some slightly gritty/slimy build up in the rez over time, and now the AN nute also have the same build up. Its a slightly different color, but the same feel - slimy/gritty. The water in the rez is also turning cloudy and has scummy bubbles floating on it. The Mega Crop never got that bad.

This is a pitcher I use and you can see the scum line on the PH meter. Never had anything like this with Mega Crop.

The only thing I can think is that there is some sort of algae and/or bacteria just floating around in my air that gets into the rez over time and feeds like crazy on the concentrated nutes - no matter whos nutes they are.

Not at all sure how to proceed from here, but Im not freaking out just yet. I may go back to low dose chlorine and see if that helps. So far, the plant doesnt seem to give a crap about my PH problems.

If anything, the roots are doing too well and the plant is doing great other than stretching more than I thought it would.

Im going to have to trim back my new duct tape roots. They are forming a curtain and starting to cut off mist from getting to the far side of the chamber.

Im also either going to have to trim back the root umbrella or add another nozzles down below. The mist is also starting to get cut off from reaching the root mat on the floor. Its very obvious where the mat isnt getting enough mist and where it is. The areas where mist can drop down from above are super white and fuzzy, and the other areas - where the umbrella is touching the side walls of the chamber - are not growing and not as white or even a bit browner.

Im probably going to add another nozzle down low that shoots up into the bottom of the umbrella. I will run it on a separate timer just for grins and more control. I dont think I will need all that much additional flow down low.

[SuperiorBuds]

@anon32470837

The only thing I can think is that there is some sort of algae and/or bacteria just floating around in my air that gets into the rez over time and feeds like crazy on the concentrated nutes - no matter whos nutes they are.

I was just about to ask – where are you located again? (Generally, don’t need to get specific.) Just as soon as you said the sealed jar is working fine it hit me, you’ve GOT to be getting something from the air. Being in the forest I always have some spores in the air, even with the HEPA filters on the intake/exhaust. It’s one of the reasons I opted for a sealed res this time around. Less chance of junk getting in there.

@anon32470837

Im also either going to have to trim back the root umbrella or add another nozzles down below. The mist is also starting to get cut off from reaching the root mat on the floor. Its very obvious where the mat isnt getting enough mist and where it is. The areas where mist can drop down from above are super white and fuzzy, and the other areas - where the umbrella is touching the side walls of the chamber - are not growing and not as white or even a bit browner.

The roots are looking great man! You’ve hit the point that I did last run – I couldn’t get enough mist deep enough into the root zone to keep the plant going at full bore. This is the point last time I started the E&F secondary feeding. (And this is why I added the lower-half NFT/waterfall for the new version.) Hope you can get it sorted with additional nozzles.

I know you mentioned this before, but how big are your root chambers? I know you have more volume than I do, but if I remember correctly I have more width while you have more depth.

[Northern_Loki]

Not quite the same thing but from the buffering tests we did see precipitation at PH above 7.5 depending on the type of acid in solution. For citric acid, the point at which the precipitation occurred moved way up in PH. But, the precipitation remains mostly soluable when the PH was pulled back into the proper range. This is not entirely surprising since, for the titrations, we are pushing the solution chemistry all over the place.

I did notice on one of the tests, the same thing you’ve noted. The solution sat stagnant with precipitation occurring at a nominal PH at over 24 hours or so. I also have a citrate based solution sitting overnight with the PH at 7.5 and has not yet shown a precipitant. But, I’m not really focusing on this specifically and this more or less ancedotal.

Also, there are several OG’ers that have reportedly experienced similar precipitants. Some of the experiences were documented in the MC thread. But, I’m not certain if they noticed ill effect other than having a cleaning difficulties.

I’m thinking a more formal OG test suite at some point might be on order, perhaps, using different PH adjustment formulations and under differing conditions. Your tests are a good start. Let’s think about what that would look like.

Gritty says to me mineral. Calcium carbonate?
Slimy says to me biological.
Open air container say biological and/or carbonate reaction.

[MicroDoser]

@Northern_Loki

Gritty says to me mineral. Calcium carbonate?
Slimy says to me biological.
Open air container say biological and/or carbonate reaction.

One thing that would eliminate all of those is an unused closed system, not open to the air.

The RO will stop limescale leaving only external contaminants as the cause. New equipment removes biological contamination so you just need to keep it that way. No ongoing access to air removes Co2 interaction and biological contamination. Whilst it is good to figure out the cause of contamination for the future, the main immediate goal is to remove the effects of any contamination in the present.

One of these might work, would expand and shrink depending on water level and also stop contamination. Food grade too. You could have it gravity feed whatever provides pressured water to your nozzles. When you want to refill, just unscrew the top, fill with RO water, nutrients, and PH adjustment then reconnect.

AFAIK 13mm black rubber piping fits onto the tap securely.

[anon32470837]

@SuperiorBuds

I was just about to ask – where are you located again?

@SuperiorBuds

Being in the forest I always have some spores in the air, even with the HEPA filters on the intake/exhaust. It’s one of the reasons I opted for a sealed res this time around. Less chance of junk getting in there.

Im in Washington state and I am surrounded by pine forest. It may technically qualify as a rain forest. I think we get 50" + of rain a year. My soil is probably 96% decayed, composting pine needles.

@SuperiorBuds

I know you mentioned this before, but how big are your root chambers? I know you have more volume than I do, but if I remember correctly I have more width while you have more depth

24" diameter modded fabric pot x about 26" tall. Around 46 gallons. Are you using the utility sinks again? I forgot your dimensions too.

more later…

[SuperiorBuds]

@anon32470837

Im in Washington state and I am surrounded by pine forest. It may technically qualify as a rain forest. I think we get 50" + of rain a year. My soil is probably 96% decayed, composting pine needles.

Pretty much the same here in the Upper Peninsula, surrounded by pine/spruce. I don’t have any soil though, I basically live on a giant sand dune covered in composting material. I have no grass – my yard is sand and moss.

We have a lot of cedar swamps and get a ton of tannins in the water, plus the decaying pine causes pH fluctuations whenever I get a lot of rain or snow melt. Funny how close our environments are – and we’ve both ran into the same weird issue. Interesting.

@anon32470837

24" diameter modded fabric pot x about 26" tall. Around 46 gallons. Are you using the utility sinks again? I forgot your dimensions too.

Now maybe it’s just too early, but my math says ~82 gallons. (I even used one of those website calculators to make sure they didn’t change math on me since I graduated.)

Wtf, I need more coffee. Back to my thoughts in a bit after I wake up some more.

[anon32470837]

@Northern_Loki

I’m thinking a more formal OG test suite at some point might be on order, perhaps, using different PH adjustment formulations and under differing conditions. Your tests are a good start. Let’s think about what that would look like.

That sounds interesting!

@Northern_Loki

Gritty says to me mineral. Calcium carbonate?
Slimy says to me biological.
Open air container say biological and/or carbonate reaction.

I probably should have used a different word - granular maybe. This stuff feels like a soft grit. Think grits you cook/ I will see if I can get some closeup pics of the build up.

On the other hand, I do get mineral build ups on pots, etc.

@MicroDoser

One of these might work, would expand and shrink depending on water level and also stop contamination. Food grade too. You could have it gravity feed whatever provides pressured water to your nozzles. When you want to refill, just unscrew the top, fill with RO water, nutrients, and PH adjustment then reconnect.

AFAIK 13mm black rubber piping fits onto the tap securely.

Interesting idea! Im going to think about that - thanks!

[anon32470837]

@SuperiorBuds

Now maybe it’s just too early, but my math says ~82 gallons. (I even used one of those website calculators to make sure they didn’t change math on me since I graduated.)

If those are utility sinks, those dimensions probably include a faucet deck on the depth, and maybe a lip on the sides/front, and legs or a stand on the height, so that 20 gallons may be correct.

[anon32470837]

@MicroDoser

One of these might work, would expand and shrink depending on water level and also stop contamination. Food grade too. You could have it gravity feed whatever provides pressured water to your nozzles. When you want to refill, just unscrew the top, fill with RO water, nutrients, and PH adjustment then reconnect.

The only drawback I thought of to that idea is that every nute I have used needs to be stirred periodically or ‘stuff’ settles or precipitates. I might be able to use bulkheads and an external pump though… hmmmmmm

[SuperiorBuds]

@anon32470837

If those are utility sinks, those dimensions probably include a faucet deck on the depth, and maybe a lip on the sides/front, and legs or a stand on the height, so that 20 gallons may be correct.

Aha I knew I was overlooking something stupid. Just went and remeasured, 12" deep in the sinks themselves. That makes a lot more sense now. (I knew I remembered you having a lot more root zone volume.)

[anon32470837]

@MicroDoser

One of these might work, would expand and shrink depending on water level and also stop contamination. Food grade too. You could have it gravity feed whatever provides pressured water to your nozzles. When you want to refill, just unscrew the top, fill with RO water, nutrients, and PH adjustment then reconnect.

AFAIK 13mm black rubber piping fits onto the tap securely.

I like that idea, but there are complications - like circulating the mix - but I am more worried I will never be able to really keep it clean over time. This crap is just floating around in the air, so every time I opened it up to add new or check PH etc, I would be introducing more crap - which will still need to be dealt with.

I think I will work on ways to limit the growth or kill the crap instead - use only RO water, low dose chlorine or copper - probably chlorine. The copper makes me nervous about long term exposure. I Might save it for once in a while killer toxic bombs

This stuff hasnt actually killed a crop yet. In fact, I have had pretty good yields every time despite brown crud on the roots, or in the rez, and even with major PH issues. Maybe Im just too worried about it and need to move on?

Actually, I dont see any practical, affordable way to deal with this other than using RO water, and low dose chlorine and routine serious cleanings in between grows.

One thing I am hoping is that - IF - I can avoid major stress to the roots - like forgetting to turn the timers back ON - maybe they will be strong enough to resist the crap better. The last several weeks, the white fuzzies have been making good progress taking over, so I think thats a good possibility. It cant hurt to NOT screw up in any case

So, thats my plan until I can think of something else to try.

[HappyHemper]

@anon32470837

‘stuff’ settles or precipitates

Sure does - speaking of - how did you do with the stones? Did they make their way out? Those are the worst. Hope you’re better and not hopped up on oxys like I had to last time…

[anon32470837]

@SuperiorBuds

Aha I knew I was overlooking something stupid. Just went and remeasured, 12" deep in the sinks themselves. That makes a lot more sense now. (I knew I remembered you having a lot more root zone volume.)

I just did some measuring and some math on my roots. As near as I can tell, my roots - for one plant - currently take up somewhere between 20 gallons and 27 gallons of volume. That includes the root umbrella and the mat on the floor. It would be a lot more than that, but I discounted the long single shoots hanging down from the top and just tried to estimate the volume of the ‘solid’ portions of the umbrella.

Im estimating that the umbrella is somewhere between 8" thick minimum to maybe 11" thick on average by 23" in diameter on average. That is somewhere between 15 gallons to 20 gallons more or less.

The mat is more like 26"-28" in diameter (because of climbing the walls) and varies from 1" to 4" thick, with most of it around 2"-3". Im estimating that part at another 5 to 7 gallons of volume.

This makes me wonder if you are going to have enough room with 12" deep chambers? I still have around 4 weeks to go.

The umbrella is now touching the chamber walls about 3/4 of the way around the circumference and filling in at the top. The mat continues to grow thicker and up the sides of the chamber. The mat and umbrella are touching in a few places now, so its getting more difficult for the mist to travel freely around the chamber.

I just added a 5th nozzle to the bottom of the chamber angled to spray across and up into the bottom of the umbrella. Ive set it to 0.5 seconds/40 seconds for starters or about 0.23 gallons/day.

I reduced the flow rate on the other three up top by about that same amount by increasing the off time from 40 to 44 seconds with the same 0.9 ON time. I did that partly because I am over watering on top now. I can tell by the root hairs - they are getting smaller, and more regular hydro roots are showing up. This may be a mistake because it may accelerate the filling of the chamber - but I like fuzzy roots!!

Its almost time to top off the rez. This time Im going to try filling it less full. The AN seems to be able to hold the PH for two to three days, so Im going to fill the rez enough to last about 4 or 5 days = about 6 or 7 gallons. Im also going to add some more chlorine at around 2-4PPM and see what that does.

[anon32470837]

@HappyHemper

Sure does - speaking of - how did you do with the stones? Did they make their way out? Those are the worst. Hope you’re better and not hopped up on oxys like I had to last time…

I have been making those stupid stones since I was in my thirties - but didnt know it until just a few years ago when I finally went to the doc to see wtf was wrong with my back. The pain was so bad I was throwing up. I was shocked to learn I had kidney stones and not bad discs in my back.

Anyway, my stupid kidneys like to make 6 to 12 stones a year these days. Fortunately, most of them are small and only feel like I pulled a muscle in my back. Im kind of getting used to it now and the little tubes (I forget the name) where they hang up and cause the pain, are pretty well reamed out by now. The stones and 5 separate ‘procedures’ to remove them, have stretched them over sized. That means most stones dont hurt nearly as much any more, but the big ones - maybe 4 or 5 a year - still knock me down hard.

Fortunately, the CBD rich capsules I make help a lot. I dont take any opiates any more and rarely need anti-nausia pills either. I still end up in bed way too often, but not screaming in pain most of the time.

You’re right though, kidney stones suck!!!

I just recalled - I think it was you who said your hydro store guy told you the Pacific North West was riddled with spores?