Adventures in hydro #3 - AAA or Air Atomized Aeroponics - for sure!

Thats a fascinating system you have come up with, but I dont think its going to work like an HPA/AAA setup. You are going to have a system that functions more like an LPA setup than HPA.

You are still thinking in terms of spraying the roots, and thats not what you want to do. The goal is to create an environment of mist at just the correct level.

Many people talk about the (potential) nute/water savings with HPA. You can indeed save a bunch IF the root chamber is sized to match the roots volume AND you create and maintain the correct mist environment - as per Atomizers numbers.

Remember I said in the early part of my grow I throw away 90% plus of the nutes/water? Thats because I am “filling the chamber” with mist, but the roots are not big enough to drink it all during the “hang time” they have to work with. There just isnt enough root mass early on for the chamber size.

Later on, my water use efficiency goes way up once the roots get to filling more of the chamber. Right now Im throwing away maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the water coming out of the nozzles - but its only that bad because my setup is far from ideal as far as coverage/number of nozzles. I would be doing much better than that in a better designed system.

IF you have good mist quality, AND good hang time, AND the roots come close to filling the chamber, THEN you will have far less water usage than normal. IF all of those are true, you can completely ignore the normal water use your plants would see in regular hydro. They will use less water in HPA then in normal hydro - but only IF…

Im afraid the system you have described will never achieve anything close to that ideal mist environment. Its going to be too leaky and wont hold the mist, so you will have little to no hang time. You dont need to worry about getting more fresh air inside - you’re going to have way too much as it is. They system is going to be too open. Thats going to leave you with just spraying the roots like an LPA setup and letting them dry for a bit then spray again.

Keep in mind that Atomizer uses those same numbers no matter what crop he is growing - tomatoes, lettuce, pot, peas, roses - doesnt matter. They all make use of the exact same mist environment. In other words, he does NOT increase the most density - or flow rates - for different plants that drink more or less than others. How much the plant normally drinks is irrelevant - IF - you have a good mist environment with good hang time. An open system will never have good hang time.

Your setup will create way too much mist where its spraying, but then that mist will be long gone before the nozzles get back to the beginning again. So you will be going from way too wet to way too dry. Your system will function like an EBB/FLOW of LPA setup. Both of those flood the roots, then turn off the water for a while.

That can certainly work, and work well, but you will be missing the main benefit of HPA/AAA that you get from that ideal mist environment that is never too wet and never too dry, but stays just right the entire time.

As far as temp control in the root zone, just spraying mist wont cool things down. You must have some evaporation going on, or there will be no cooling. Inside the chamber, the humidity will be close to 100% (if you have a good mist environment) so very little evaporation. Thats one of the resons I use a fabric chamber. It gets wet with every spray, then the water evaporates carrying the heat to the OUTSIDE of the root chamber as the water evaporates from the fabric. The other reason is so the roots air prune when they grow into the fabric.

That evaporative cooling is so effective that I have to heat the root chamber even in the summer. I have the foam box around the fabric chamber for two reasons. One is light proofing because the fabric is not 100% light proof and roots hate light. No beathable fabric is 100% light proof. The other reason is to make the heater more efficient. I dont want to heat the entire room - just the roots.

I get plenty of fresh air into the chamber. Plus I have to be careful to seal around the net pots. Other folks have mentioned that even the small amount of air that gets in past the net pots/hydroton is enough to air prune the roots and kill them off. Your fresh air needs to be very very gentle and subtle. NO breezes, fans, openings etc. A gente infiltration through some fabric works fine. Any more and its bad news. Those openings for tubes, tracks, etc will be a problem

The other way to cool the root chamber, as you mentioned, is by chilling the source water, but that can be difficult when you have long pipes running around and it is energy intensive. Not something you want when running on solar panels.

I think your tracked nozzles and segmented tubes are really cool and innovative, but I dont see how this will work as an HPA setup. You will get very similar results if you just go with low pressure sprayers and it will save you a ton of money on equipment.

1 Like

Day 76 - almost 11 weeks. Drying out the roots over and over sure does slooooow things down!

The leaves look soso as do the roots. It feels like everything is slowing down on top and down in the root chamber. Growth of new roots is now very slow. The fuzzies are still there and maybe still spreading slowly, but there is a lot of smooth root structure.

On the left side - this is where the original damage showed up first when the roots dried out. The same damage has only recently started showing up on the right two plants, and is still much less obvious.

This is the right side plants - the two smaller ones initially.

Its hard to compare this grow to earlier grows - mostly because the plants are growing so much closer to the floor of the tent. The branches start dividing right at the floor and the nodes are so close together and the foliage so dense, I cant see down in there at all. On all my previous grows, the screen was maybe 8’ to 10" up off the floor, and all the buds were above that point. This time, I have moderately dense buds right ON the floor. in many places, that extend all the way up.

Anyway, Im going out on a limb and guessing that I will beat the 100 gms/plant goal I started out with. It shouldnt be toooo much longer. Im starting to see more amber trichs on the more advanced buds and the white pistles are starting to shrink and change color most every where else.

Here is a shot of the roots. Lots of smooth roots but still some areas of fuzzy hairs but they are smaller than earlier in the grow. They are not the big fat bottle brushes I had before.

I cant wait to start the next grow cycle after I make several changes to the nozzle setup. As I mentioned before, Im going to change over to a real siphon setup as opposed to the positive pressure I have now. I have a working siphon tank that I think will allow me to adjust the siphon levels to get the mist adjusted. This should allow me to lower th air pressure down to under 5 PSI.

That plus I will be adding two more nozzles for 4ea total. All will shoot down from the top this time.

Im going to run one of the @Sebring autos I have next time. I need to get some feed back on how big they grow, but Im thnking that three plants should be enough - IF - I can avoid drying out the roots. I have confidence in my new “Turn the nozzles back ON dumb ass!!” alarm, so maybe I can do a clean run for a change :slight_smile:

4 Likes

Day 78

There are slightly more amber trichs today, but still no enough for me. Id say its still well below 10% amber on the most advanced buds and all clear to cloudy on the rest.

I just tested my float valve mini siphon rez gizmo thingy and it works, but the flow is too restricted. I used 1.5" ABS pipe and the ping pong balls fit too tightly. That causes the flow rate to be pretty low. I was also disappointed that it took a minimum of three ping pong balls to get the tank to seal and stop the water flow. I was hoping for a single ball to work, but I am going to use at least 5 ping pong balls for some extra insurance. That makes the tank taller than I wanted, which means it holds more water, but thats really no big deal.

I started out using a 1.5" ABS pipe, but the ping pong balls fit to tightly which made for a very slow water flow rate. So Im switching to 2" ABS with a reducer to 1.5" where the seal is in the threaded cap.

Here is a crude drawing. I’ll post a pic when I get done rebuilding it with the 2" ABS pipe.

Duh! I dont need to rebuild it with 2" ABS. The chamber holds way more than enough water in the lower portion - below the ping pong balls - to supply the nozzles for any single ON cycle. With 4 nozzles, Im sure I will never go over aprox 10ML per ON cycle, and the lower part of the chamber will hold several times that much. It may take a few seconds to re-fill the tank, but that no problem because there will be a minimum of around 40 seconds of OFF time - more than long enough to re-fill the tank.

A couple of pics:

Oh - that small black tibe in the top is a vent/over flow. I will run it to the root chamber catch basin.

1 Like

Well crap. I just finished some more extensive testing of the siphon tank and its not working consistently at all. The water level when it re-fills after a cycle isnt the same each time, and every 10 cycles or so it doesnt stop the flow at all. When the float plugs the opening at the top, the water level varies by 2 or 3 inches. That wont do at all as it will change the mist characteristics (droplet size and flow rate) a lot with different siphon levels.

So, back to the drawing board…

1 Like

Day 80 and no big changes.

There are more amber trichs in the most developed buds, but still not what I am looking for. Most other places still have a lot of clear trichs. I may harvest the more developed stems in a few days once there are a few more trichs and wait for the rest to catch up.

I decided to give up on a DIY float valve. The best idea I have would use an old carburetor bowl and valve that is in my old parts bin. I worried I wont be able to get it clean enough to prevent gasoline deposits from leaching into the water. PLus, its mostly aluminum and brass parts, so corrosion is a big worry. None of my other cheap, easy, parts on hand ideas have worked out, so I give up. My inner McGiver has failed… :wink:

Im ordering a cheap mini valve from Amazon and will try that. I will have to fabricate a tank, but that should be easy.

2 Likes

Day 81

hehehehehehehe I tried to do some of those beauty shots from under the canopy like @Howard.Crane did. My canopy is so dense and close to the floor of the tent that I was not able to get anything nearly as artistic or good looking as Howard did in his grow thread.

On top of that, my phone is now one huge stinky sticky mess!!! Oh my god! How do I get this crap off my screen without damaging it? I should have thought this through a little better, but some things are best not done :slight_smile:

Most of the shots turned out like this first couple - blurry junk or just a single, out of focus leaf. A couple of them are kind of interesting, but none of them are on par with Howards pics. His were just pure beauty.

<img src="/uploads/default/original/3X/4/1/41e4f8cc2e25c0baf35dbc5fbc9ed6050f36e567.jpg" width=“666” height="500"width=“375” height=“500”>

One thing I can see is that, when I do harvest, Im going to end up keeping a lot more leaves and even some stems that are covered in trichs.

3 Likes

Lol. My wife took the better photos. I showed her your comment, and she says with a laugh that she uses rubbing alcohol to clean the phone when she needs to.

We both like your photos :smile:

Lovely view!

(Did a photo disappear while I was responding?)

3 Likes

I was clumsy while editing, so I had to up-load one of them again.

Your wife takes good pics!

I’ll try the rubbing alcohol. I think I have some around some place.

Thanks for the tip!

2 Likes

She says she uses the 70%, because she’s not sure if the 90% will damage the screen finish.

3 Likes

I happened to have 70% on hand, and it worked perfectly!

Pass along my thanks!!

P.S. Better hang on to her. I think you’ve got a keeper! :wink:

3 Likes

Day 84

I think Im getting close to ready to start harvesting some of the more advanced buds. The big girl is showing more amber trichs on the main chola. One other one also has a fair number of ambers. Every thing else just has one or two hear and there and some places still have a lot of clear trichs, so this will be a prolonged harvest. The good part about that is trim jail gets spread out :slight_smile:

Im also starting to think I may get a decent weight, but thats really hard to be sure about until it gets cut down. The buds do seem pretty dense though over all. I should get a rough idea once I can weigh this first chunk. Im going to give it two more days, then start cutting.

Some of the buds are getting to decent size.

This is the best looking one of the bunch, but a long way from the biggest.

7 Likes

I know this run wasn’t everything you were hoping it would be, but it looks like you’re going to get a decent haul of some tasty-looking buds. Nicely done!

2 Likes

hahahahahahaha!! I really honestly thank you for that, but it shows you are quite the diplomat! I cant imagine a nicer way to say I might get a decent harvest - despite all my screw ups :smiley:

Im actually pretty impressed myself. From the very beginning I was having doubts and reservations - mostly from their very small size and sloooooow growth. Add in all my screw ups, and its really a wonder they have survived at all.

Im sure a part of that resilience is just the amazing ability of these plants to grow no matter what. I cant help but wonder how much a part the aero plays. Ive managed good yields every time so far despite killing off roots on a regular basis. It would be more telling if I had a clean run for comparison. Maybe next time… :slight_smile:

4 Likes

Forgot the root pics. Very few fuzzy hairs left, but still healthy over all.

Im wondering if the lack of fuzzies is due more to the heavy over spraying, age of the plant. I suspect its mostly that Im forced to keep them overly wet.

4 Likes

I was honestly just trying not to sound insincere with “over praise”, given that you’ve mentioned things that were less than optimal a few times, lol. :smile:

I’ve found the whole journey to be pretty fascinating, and if I was a younger and less broken man, I might actually try aero myself. I don’t think it fits my situation, but it definitely appeals to my personality and love of tinkering and trying to optimize everything possible. Having said that, it’s obviously not trivial to get it really dialed in.

4 Likes

LOL I know exactly how you feel!

2 Likes

I was nervous about how autos would perform in this system, but they look just as good as any others I’ve seen run. :+1::seedling:

5 Likes

I am very glad to hear that :slight_smile:

1 Like

I think perhaps the droplet size is key for the development of these fine hairs… in the low pressure system I built and tried I never did get the masses of fine root hairs I was expecting… A mate of mine uses aero and runs it at 120 PSI through some nozzles that are designed to deliver the exact droplet size, apart from the fact he is forever cleaning the things, his plant roots always seem to have masses of ultra fine root hairs. I kinda came to the conclusion that my low pressure system was almost just a sprayed dwc…

2 Likes