Can you expand on that a little bit? Which plant is the “original plant”. Unless the seeds were produced by selfing, don’t they still have two parents; the pollen donor and the seed producer?
I’m trying to wrap my head around this, and every time I think I start to understand, I get more confused.
I know you are providing good information, but my thick skull is preventing it from entering.
I hope I’m providing good information. 
This is one of those things I think I understand, but have a hard time explaining.
All living things except bacteria are considered eukaryotes, and all eukaryotes are diploid, meaning they have 2 complete sets of DNA. Cells replicate by division, in a process called Mitosis. Both strands of DNA are copied, so both of the new cells have the full complement of DNA. There’s an “extension” of that process called Meiosis, and that’s where we’re gonna look.
In Meiosis, the end product from 2 cells, is 4 “gametes”, or sex cells, pollen, sperm, eggs, ova, are just different words for male and female gametes. In Meiosis, the DNA strands are split, but not copied, and 2 new germ line gametes are made, but these cells are haploid, which means have 1 strand of the parent’s DNA.
I think Meiosis is the engine of evolution. In creating these haploid gametes, the processes of Meiosis introduce slight variations to the positions of the genes, and as a result, each male and female gamete are unique packages of the parent plant’s genetics.
Yes they do, but their DNA isn’t two separate strands, from 2 individual plants anymore. At pollination, those 2 gametes merge, and the individual strands of DNA they contain are fused together. Once that happens, they can never be separated into their male and female components. They are one thing now. (Obviously I’m not talking about a CRISPR lab. )
Anyway, that brings us to selfing. Since we’re creating fem seeds, the original plant is the one we’re gonna reverse. It’s a female, so Meiosis is creating haploid cells that contain one strand of her DNA, just like a regular plant.
Now you reverse the plant, and in addition to haploid ova, it starts making haploid pollen cells, and IMO, that’s the crux of the problem because the pollen and ova are both being created from the same DNA, not from the DNA of 2 separate individuals, so even though all the genes are there, it’s impossible for the genes to line up the same way as they did in our original plant. What you’re really doing with fems is recombining the same DNA, and hoping to get something close to that particular female.
Man, hopefully I didn’t make it worse. 
I’m not a geneticist, and there are surely aspects of this I’m unaware of, and there’s the old dog, new trick’s thing, which I never discount.
I’d encourage you to read up on Meiosis. Once you understand how those cells are created, it might make more sense.
Damn! That was deep, well said @Guitarzan.
I think even I got it! After my eyes glazed over. I kind of skipped the scientific word and just read the English and got it. Thank you!
Thank you for taking the time to expound.
I understand haploid and diploid (and even triploid with seedless watermelon plants). I sort of understand meiosis, but not fully.
I did not know about this part.
Doesn’t the same thing happen with normal breeding (pollen from a male and ova from female)? Or is it different because there isn’t a “Y” chromosome in the mix? This is the part that I’m not getting. I’ll keep reading and trying to get it though.
One of my original posts was a question about reversing plants that grew from feminized seeds. I had questions but didn’t know how or what to ask. I kind of still don’t, but I think I’m getting somewhere with it.
Again, thank you for the response.
Thanks for the kind words, but I should point out that I’m basically telling you what I think about the genetic impact of fem seeds, and giving you my reasons why I think that. I’d strongly encourage you NOT to take it at face value. If you’re really interested, find a paper on Mendel’s experiments, maybe one on Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium. All of this stuff is in there, and it really helps to know what all the pieces are called.
There are several types of genetic material involved, chromosomes, genes, and alleles. Chromosomes are the totality of your DNA, the whole thing. Along the chromosome are areas that produce proteins, those areas are genes. One gene can have multiple variants, those variants are called alleles. Genes make up the genotype, alleles visibly express the genotype in the phenotype of the offspring.
Eye color comes from the same gene,so blue, brown, and green eye color are alleles of that gene.
Here’s a link that lines out the process, and describes how Meiosis adds variation and genetic diversity to every living thing on this planet except some forms of bacteria.
It’s kinda sciencey, but we’re talking about a biological process, and it’s hard to avoid science in that situation.
I’ve never tried to reverse a plant, but what I’ve heard is, you don’t want to do it more than twice. It’s like a speeded up version of inbreeding depression. Since you’re recombining the same genes, there’s a greater chance of unwanted recessives showing up.
That holds true for regular inbreeding too, but it takes longer because you’re starting with more genetic diversity. If you cross a line over, and over, you’re going to start seeing things you don’t want to see, because the recessive genes will start being expressed, and I think that’s gonna happen faster with fems.
Having said all that, there are people who don’t use males at all anymore for breeding projects. They say that as long as you’re crossing two different strains, the fact that they’re fems isn’t problematic. I don’t have any firsthand knowledge about that, but in the context of this conversation it seems reasonable.
It seems to me that a mother plant is a mother plant, so if you leave her be, and just reverse her clones, you should be good. What you don’t want to do is reverse her, grow out the seeds, reverse those, and so on. Like I say, I hear you can do that once or twice, and be OK.
Please try and verify this before putting it into practice. I’m pretty confident in my understanding of Meiosis, but not 100% on my, “fems only have half the genetic diversity as regs” theory.
If anybody reads this who disagrees, I’d be interested in hearing why. I’m not looking to start a flame war, I’d really like to understand the why of it.
I’ll stop hijacking your thread @Chronickyle. Thanks for your tolerance.
That looks like my dog lol German Shepherd/ lab mix?
Short hair siberian husky 
Much of what you say here is beyond my knowledge, although one thing seems slightly off to me. Please correct me if I am mistaken or misunderstanding, I very well may be.
When you talk about FEM seeds, it sounds like more what you are getting at is SELFED seeds. Specifically pollinating a plant with pollen from a reversed clone of itself, vs pollinating a female plant with pollen from a different reversed female. In that case it is my understanding that the only thing you are missing from the gene pool is a chromosome (and arguably genes/alleles that are specifically linked to that chromosome?possibly?).
Also, when preservation of genetic diversity is the goal, during an open pollination, wouldn’t reversing clones (or a branch) of all the females and adding their pollen to the mix provide a greater cross section of the gene pool in seed form, in a single generation of seed making?
It is. I use those term interchangeably, I guess because all fem crosses come from selfed plants. Maybe I shouldn’t do that. I said something in my last post about crossing two selfed strains, and what you’re saying makes sense. You’re still working with two separate individuals, so that may not be as big of a deal.
I wouldn’t think so because in a normal M/F pollination, the female’s genetics are already involved 100%. I can’t see what you’d gain by doing that, it might not hurt anything, but it seems redundant to me.
Good questions though. 
I assume in MT’s example the clones are from different seed plants. In my line of thinking this would be similar to open pollination, and could possibly reduce the likelihood of amplifying undesirable recessive traits.
It may be redundant in a large population, but in a small population it would give you that many more permutations of the genes. Again, I may be off base here, but thinking along these lines…
If, for example, you have 6 females(1-6) and 4 males(a-d). When you bring male to female, you get 24 possible combinations of parents. By introducing pollen from a reversal of each of those females, you are introducing another 21 possible parental combinations(someone please check my math on that). That includes the females also self pollinating, as I was assuming sticking with the full open pollination for maximum diversity.
In theory, the combinations and expressions you get from bringing those females together may not come up as frequently or as soon if just working the M+F. Especially if you are working with as small of populations as many of us are.
So while there isn’t any more genetic material present there, you are cracking open and making available more permutations from the gene pool in a single open pollination.
How much benefit there is to doing this probably depends somewhat on how much genetic diversity is present in any given population you have to begin with. Also, wether or not this is desirable in any given situation could be debated, but in general if OP is what’s happening I would think it would be.
When the farmers are taking their seed from their favorite females at the end of each season, for all they know that pollen could have come from a banana on the female next to it, or even on itself.
yeah either way, keeping each plant separate so you don’t get the selfs, or just letting it all fly
Will these be in the fall box? I’m really looking forward to this strain and its medical benefits. Thanks for your work @Chronickyle
Sorry these will not be in the fall box, i couldnt bring my self to complete this coop for the site after the negative pms ive recieved asking me to leave this site from someone if i mention I will probally be banned. As they are all powerful around here 
Im sure thats vague enough to not break the rules of sharing pms 
That said im still happy to send some out my self to friends on here that are wanting to grow some to try, not stash them, I plan to keep a bunch around for people I find that I think may benefit, Open to trades as well but only to those with at least some cred around here since a few recent trades and resends never even showed up and im tired of dealing with those situations.
So just hit me up with a pm and your info @allotment and ill add you to my list of shit to get done!
On another note we have also found that blackberry breath from JOTI also has some medical potential. Seems to do a good job at relaxing very tight muscles.
I’m sorry to hear that @Chronickyle…
I hear you 100%. A sad turn of events, as yours were pretty plants, but C’est la vie! And it sounds like these may slowly trickle out. I have not seen you post much recently. I hope you are well!
Dirtron
I’m sorry to hear that man, that really sucks.
I wondered why I wasn’t seeing your posts. I hope that changes around.
Cheers
G
I totally understand you sweetie. Somethings have to be swallowed to stay around.
Bummer this has happened. I noticed the thread went quite thanks for updating us.
These would’ve been good for my involentry muscle spams.
Completely understand the rock and hard place. Will look into these JOTI that you mention
