Do you think herbivore predation is a benefit to plant growth? I feel the leaves would be better utilized by the plant if not consumed by a predator.
I feel there is a big difference between defoliating and pruning. Which crops are typically defoliated that aren’t pruned?
I cant think of one
Herbivory doesn’t harm a plant until it reaches a critical level. The stress or chemical signals from herbivore saliva or frass also can stimulate growth (oh shit gotta grow big so bug dont kill me response) and secondary metabolite production (see tobacco and nicotine) as a response.
Cotton is defoliated as a crop. Soybeans are basically defoliated for the end of their life, so are many fruit trees and vines, both of which are also routinely pruned back.
Edit to add: defoliation is also common in systems where you intercrop and have a low lying crop mixed with a taller, leafier one.
I’m a fan of defoliation with a scrog setup. I’ve done light and super heavy defoliations on several occasions, and honestly I didn’t notice much difference between the two in the end. I have noticed a lot of lime colored, larfy material when I just let them grow naturally, especially if it’s a thick canopy. Not even low buds necessarily. Shorter tops that aren’t getting any light or airflow.
I also have a theory that it helps straighten out slight toxicity by focusing its nitrogen use on creating a new canopy. This is admittedly bro-science, but there could be something to it.
So this one I disagree with. It is easier than checking trichome, you don’t even need a lens for it. You can see, unaided, how long a teichome is. Which means you can judge how long g the stalk is and paying attention to your plants it will become readily apparent when the stalks stop elongation. You don’t need to let them go until they reach a certain length, you just wait for them to stop elongating
Which fruit trees are defoliated but not pruned?
Cannabis leaves naturally senescence as they mature, essentially defoliating itself at a predetermined rate. Seems more like planting density issues with respect indoor gardens and limited energy sources.
Who is defoliating outdoors?
I agree with this. I don’t think defoliation is necessary for freestanding plants that aren’t super packed together. Especially if they are outdoors. I don’t pull off much if my plants are spread out and have a lot of space in the scrog. That’s kind of rare though. Usually I have a jungle because I suck at timing out my cycles.
So you’re saying it’s easier for a hobby gardener to gauge lengths of stalks in microns with the naked eye as they mature to the optimal length compared to looking for milky trichomes?
I think most hobby gardeners will find it easier to gauge the trichome color than to assess stalk length of unknown cultivars. The amount of time and energy to familiarize oneself with the relative lengths of stalk and how it relates to maturity would be immense for a hobby gardener compared to looking at trichome color.
I said fruit trees and vines are both defoliated and pruned.
Leaf senescence is caused by more than just maturity. Plants also self defoliate, walk a field of fiber hemp and the ground is mostly cannabis leaves. Not because the leaf matured, but because it wasn’t performing.
I dont have a problem if people don’t want to defoliate. Like almost every grow question asked, the answer depends on context. My system benefits from defoliating. I have studied enough plant physiology and ecology to know this happens in both nature and production systems. I have seen enough cannabis research articles detailing how defoliation does not cost yield but does improve the evenness of cannabinoid distribution throughout the plant.
Your system is currently indoors yeah?
Try it with your trichomes. The stalks can be measured in microns, but they finish in millimeters.
I’m ok if you don’t believe me, thats not a prerequisite for me to be correct.
I’m just sharing information that has been accumulated through scientific studies and articles. No one has to believe it, but ignoring all the evidence is a little flat earth in my book.
Not trying to be rude, not trying to be mean, but you haven’t offered much evidence here other than your experience. I dont doubt you have a lot of experience, not at all. Im positive you pump absolute fire. But that doesn’t mean it’s the only way to grow or the right way to grow.
Edit to add: I would urge you to try evaluating your plants on trichome length instead of color alone. If you haven’t honestly tried to do so then I feel you are just speculating here.
I run both in and out
I believe there is a clear distinction between defoliation and pruning.
I thought you eluded to some fruit trees being defoliated but not pruned. Are you saying they are pruned and not defoliated? Which is it?
There is a difference between pruning shoots and growth along with accompanying leaves compared to just removing the leaves. Do you know of any fruit trees that are commonly defoliated but not also pruned?
I wouldn’t classify pruning the same as defoliation. Do you?
I can’t confidently gauge the distinction of trichome stalk length in microns or millimetres in a way that would clearly gauge ripeness. You must eat a bunch of carrots.
It’s documented in literature that before peak ripeness occurs the cuticle wall of the trichome thickens and becomes more opaque. I can confidently assess that difference though. Even with cultivars in which stalk length as it relates to ripeness is unknown. The opacity is known.
Curious about your defoliation practices outdoors, would you care to elucidate?
They are both modifying plant architecture so yeah. They are similar. One is just more extreme than the other.
Again, answers here are dependent on the system. If your system doesn’t need to defoliate thats awesome. Others defoliate and see benefits.
Here is a presentation from Cornell, one of the foremost plant research universities in the world
Defoliation is not uncommon.
Grapes are often defoliated after the fruiting starts but before they start to change colour.
With apples and in the context of your reference, what makes harvesting of apples more efficient?
I’d prefer taste and quality the benchmarks. Leaves help move water. Water movement is directly related to plant function. I definitely don’t agree with defoliating unless the planting density is unfavorable with respect to plant morphology.
I had to defoliate all of my out door this year.
Thats a very fair reason to use color. And I agree literature says milky is an indicator, but again trichome development and morphology are genotype dependent (from literature) and that stalk elongation and trichome maturity are also related. That means different genotypes look different at maturation. I have advocated for a holistic method of determining harvest time in this thread instead of relying on only one characteristic and I will stand by that.
Was it harvest time and you were trimming?
Jokes aside, curious what would cause the need to defoliate all of your outdoor?
