Lighting Spectral Data

Muleskinner · March 19, 2019, 4:41pm

Metal Halide is a little short on red to be ideal, CMH adds a big spike in the red, but I found those bulbs to be more unstable than HPS, also they’re expensive bulbs that don’t last long

interesting aside - I just spoke to Fluence customer service this AM about an order, I asked a random question, are they planning to use exclusively Osram diodes going forward, she said the current plan is for Osram to let Fluence run independently, there is no move to replace the Samsung diodes they’re using w/ Osram. It looks like they use white Samsung diodes & Osram for red & blue ones

Baudelaire · March 20, 2019, 6:31pm

That’s interesting - you’d think that access to top bin, maybe otherwise unreleased, Osram white diodes would be one of the key advantages to being part of the Osram empire. Does Fluence actually disclose their diode mix? I’ve seen reported statements from company reps that were pretty squirrelly about their diode mixes in the past. One commenter said he had been told that they used “whatever the best diodes that were available” depending on market availability and pricing. Yikes.

From the Fluence website, under “technology”:

“All Fluence systems are built with the latest LED technology from the world’s top semiconductor manufacturers — including Osram, Samsung and LG.”

Pretty cagey. I don’t know of another light manufacturer that uses LG diodes. Or rather “includes” them in a partial list of disclosed vendors of the most critical technological components of their products.

I really want to love Fluence and admire their products. I really do. But the diodes are everything in LED. Would you pay extra for a bottle of water from a company that said it sourced its water from some of the purest sources on the planet, including the Swiss Alps, the Polynesian rainforest, and Artic icebergs; or would you prefer the company that said it sourced its water exclusively from the XYZ Glacier in Norway (tested, proven, chemical analysis available)?

I’ll stop with the Fluence bashing now, I know @Northern_Loki wants to keep this thread focused on independent testing and analysis of different lamps. I only bring it up because the company’s founder and chief of research comes out of the DIY grow light community, and has made such public statements about what consumers should demand in terms of technical disclosure from light manufacturers. Their actual disclosure falls far short of that, and is basically indistinguishable from the Alibaba fabricators that claim they use top quality components “like Cree, Samsung and Epistar”.

Muleskinner · March 20, 2019, 6:17pm

yes, I assumed the same thing, of course Osram would not want them buying a competitor’s diodes. However there are re-design and re-tooling costs to consider - maybe they will slowly migrate their fixtures over the next few years or something. They probably have contracts with their existing suppliers too.

I am just looking at the diodes and guessing what they are, I don’t know of anywhere that Fluence has disclosed what they’re using. I can see the red & blue diodes look identical to the Osram ones in my PL Light fixture, which uses all Osram. The white ones are different from the white Osram diodes, I assumed Samsung but this is what they say:

All Fluence systems are built with the latest LED technology from the world’s top semiconductor manufacturers — including Osram, Samsung and LG.

Northern_Loki · March 20, 2019, 7:28pm

Pretty much jumped the shark at this point.

Muleskinner · March 21, 2019, 1:49am

It’s almost like a soap opera “as the LED world turns”. …HID was simple, they’re all same, LED has so many permutations…it’s like choosing your favorite wine or craft beer

Albannach · March 21, 2019, 2:06am

It’s always the same when tech geeks get involved. You should see the endless arguments about cables on hifi sites

A ‘guru’ states this new shit is the best shit ever and the herd polish the turd. Then another guru disagrees and war breaks out, small minds use big words to impress the faithful and put down the unbelievers. Same as it ever was

Muleskinner · March 21, 2019, 5:45am

I’m going to a cannabis convention this weekend so I can totally geek out - Fluence will be there and many other lighting companies, I’ll be talking to all of them “tell me about your diodes…”

Albannach · March 21, 2019, 1:14pm

Watch their eyes when you ask that question, you might even see that sales smile slip a bit

Tell them you can advise them about cryogenic treatment for those diodes which will re-align their conductor’s crystal structure so it conducts better which results in an efficiency gain

They just need to provide several examples of their latest products - for evaluation purposes, etc

Muleskinner · March 24, 2019, 12:08am

Had a great time at NECANN convention today, it’s become huge. Fluence bought a big crew up from Texas, I got to ask my questions and check out all the lights. One guy told me they are indeed using Samsung white diodes & Osram colored ones - he said they prefer the Samsung white diodes and have no plans to change.

Both the Fluence and Urban-gro people advised me that changing spectrum should not shock the plants much - they said changing intensity is the real problem. Told me I should get an Apogee light meter - it costs $500+, I’ll probably stick with trial & error The beam angle of my PL flowering lights is only 80 degrees, even at 50 inches away it can shock the plants.

Northern_Loki · March 23, 2019, 11:57pm

FWIW, there is a USB version which is a bit less. Need a PC or a MAC. And, you can usually find them a bit cheaper by watching for deals via Ebay and such.

Also, Li-cor are decent, too.

Northern_Loki · August 31, 2019, 3:27pm

Cleaned up the OP a bit
Added two unbranded UV-A LED lamps into the OP. Also see this thread:
Anyone experiment with UVA supplementation?
Preparing for the addition of more fixture / lamp measurements.

Northern_Loki · April 12, 2021, 11:25am

FYI, new ‘ePAR’ sensor from Apogee. Revision on the McCree PAR range, these sensors includes photosynthetically active FR and a bit of the UV which they coined extended PAR.

For those curious, timestamp 9:08 for the ‘why’.

Some of the associated research papers described in the video:

Substituting Far-Red for Traditionally Defined Photosynthetic Photons Results in Equal Canopy Quantum Yield for CO2 Fixation and Increased Photon Capture During Long-Term Studies: Implications for Re-Defining PAR
Substituting_Far-Red_for_Traditionally_Defined_Pho.pdf (1.7 MB)

Far-red photons have equivalent efficiency to traditional photosynthetic photons: Implications for redefining photosynthetically active radiation
Bugbee 2020 Far Red Results in 14 Plant Species.pdf (3.0 MB)

Muleskinner · April 12, 2021, 3:55pm

interesting, too bad I just bought the older quantum sensor last year! Looks like this will only be a few % different from the old one though.

Northern_Loki · April 15, 2021, 2:40pm

Oh, that’s a perfectly fine sensor. I have one of the older models as well.

Hemp · November 2, 2021, 10:49am

Hey Northern. Have you ever used the light meter app? I was curious I use it on mine. Wanted to know if it was a waste of time.

Northern_Loki · August 22, 2021, 3:25am

I have not used those phone based light meters / PAR meters.

They’ll probably produce sufficient accuracy for what an individuals needs. It will also likely differ from phone to phone and have other limitations since the sensors, filters, gain, linearity of the CCD/CMOS camera will vary. Some applications may spell out the phone models that the application has calibration data for. There was a thread here talking about using such applications.

For more accuracy (if you a running a large operation) or scientific grade accuracy (if you are running studies or tests), you’d want a true PAR meter or, in some cases, going as far as a spectrometer.

p.s. a true par sensor makes adjustments for the incident angle of the radiation. The angle relative to the sensor will cause an error. Correcting for the error is essential for accurate metering of PPFD for instance. You don’t get that from a phone camera but, then again, do you need that level of accuracy.

EugeneDebs420 · September 16, 2021, 9:54pm

thoughts on this spectrum? I’ve got an fce4800 on the way but want to fill out a 4x8 and the $350 price tag on this lights pretty tempting.

Muleskinner · September 17, 2021, 12:29am

It looks good to me! tested by DLC, that price is really low for 440W

https://qpl.designlights.org/horticulture?search=volt&dlc_session_id=&dlc_last_company_id=

anon11552397 · April 4, 2022, 1:56am

@Northern_Loki

I hope this information is useful. I think it adds to the reference data you have shared thus far.

Gavita DE HPS 1000W spectrometer data from from 357 to 830 nm at <1 nm increments created by University researchers (attached as txt file). Along with two SPD charts from the spectrometer data attached.