My thought behind it is that if f1s have 50% of the parents traits then would it be best to use an f1 if you wanted to equally pass on traits of both parents?
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i just read from a seed bank that f1s are the future of breeding, ill have to try and find that website again, this was a bit back. they had said the f1s are always the same with a few phenos, im not sure on that, but they did mention the Vigor ness of the f1s and i can totally agree to that.
found the website⌠i do not work for royal queen seed and i have never run their strains
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âBestâ depends on your goals.
I think using two âF1sâ to parent a line is liable to produce a higher degree of variability in the offspring. So, if you want to capture traits of the P plants (parents of the F1s), yes, it is more likely. But itâs unlikely to appear in the correct combination of traits you are looking for. Itâs the same story for F2s, although more complicated because you are blending an even broader gene pool. In terms of overall preservation of particular parent traits, maybe, but you are really muddying the waters and the characteristics you desire may be like finding a needle in a haystack.
If you are looking for consistency from F1 progeny (or subsequent ones), the P lines need to be stabilized before hybridizing. So, F1 is probably not the best choice for this, ideally youâd have IBL parents and a fairly consistent F1 generation. I think generally F1s are fairly uniform based on this assumption. I donât think thatâs the case with many F1 hybrids that are crosses of other first-generation hybrids.
There are plenty of people on this forum with incredible knowlege on this topic, hopefully theyâll chime in and school us both.
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A real true F1 has always been the breeding goal. Unfortunately a desirable F1 is not achieved by simply crossing 2 different plants. The parents used to create an true F1 generation come from 2 heavily worked inbred lines that breed mostly true for their traits. That is how you get a real F1 hybrid with hybrid vigor. Otherwise you are just continuing polyhybridization which is not going to breed true.
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Thanks for that! Iâm going to read that when I have a sec! Yeah in my mind it makes a lot a sense to use f1s to breed with!
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Interesting. Finally, a âlargeâ seed producer marketing stability. About time, IMO. Other breeders have been working hard to stabilize their genetics for generations. Ironically, Iâd have expected more stability in the 70s and 80s because most of the parent stock was already IBL.
Prohibition and the inability to reliably hold parental stock, or grow large populations really hindered cannabis from the development of proper âF1â stable hybrids, thatâs the fundamental difference, compared, to say, tomatoes. There are companies now I think significantly ahead of RQS in this effort, with massive phenohunts and line-bred parents with offspring well stabilized. This effort will continue as commercial cultivation increases. Consistency is important when you plant 100 seeds, you donât want to be taking care of a 100 totally different plants. Or 1000s.
The breeding of âF1sâ to âF1sâ has resulted in the weakening and blending of lines. It is one of the reasons there is currently such a push back to vintage IBLs and simple hybrids, which can be stabilized much easier and used to generate true F1 hybrids from stable parental stock. Most modern cannabis âF1sâ arenât actually F1s as described - they are polyhybrids, often unworked and very unstable.
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Ok cool! Thank you! I figured itâd be a little more to it! It couldnât be that simple lol
And to work those line would you have two sets of siblings from the same strain that you work towards the same goal and then combine the two the true f1?
No, two completely separate inbred lines when brought together, creates an F1 hybrid. Real true breeding columbian gold crossed to real true breeding deep chunk. Thatâs a true F1 hybrid.
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I did,I run a lot of their strains.Read that thing too
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Ok I got ya!!
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Basically the end goal is to breed a true F1 hybrid. And then use those for growing, not breeding. Unless of course you heavily work and select that new F1 hybrid and turn it into a new inbred line.
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Thanks for helping clear that up for me!
This article is marketing claiming they are the first company to produce true F1 hybrids which express hybrid vigour. It isnât claiming that breeding with F1âs is the future, thatâs the current situation with most âbreedersâ simply crossing the most popular/best looking plants together creating polyhybrids with no uniformity.
What RQS is saying is the exact opposite of what the OP is asking. RQS is claiming they have made stable (aka homozygous), IBL breeding stock from which they can produce true F1 crosses. The OP is asking if using F1 crosses, which are inherently unstable/heterozygous since youâre crossing two genetically distinct parents, is a good way to breed. Hopefully that makes the difference clear.
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F1âs are whatâs used by most âbreedersâ (more accurately called pollen chuckers in my opinion, not in a negative way but just to differentiate between typical breeding and pot growers) as theyâre crossing the latest and greatest back and forth with each other.
Typically breeding programs are based on starting with unique plants that are stable for the selected traits, which are then crossed to a different complementary line to hopefully combine the best of both plants in a new F1 for production. If you use stable parents whoâs genes compliment each other we see hybrid vigour which means the seeds will: be uniform, grow faster/bigger then either parent, be more vigorous and produce more. Thatâs what RQS has claimed to have done, which would mean creating various P1 stock (parent generation) from inbreeding lines until their stable. Itâs highly questionable as many breeders have claimed that but none actually have. With something like tomatoes that will self pollinate itâs easy to stabilize genes by simply crossing the plant to itself and collecting seeds, roguing out off type plants and only keeping seeds of those that express all the traits youâre looking for. The fact pot is dioescious and only the females produce bud that can easily be evaluated make it infinitely more complex to create a true IBL as line breeding is the only proven method. Thatâs where you cross every male with every female in a controlled pollination, grow the seeds out and then make decisions about which lines are closest to the ideal and worth pursuing. Which quickly spirals out of most growers capacity when you think about it, which is why âbreedersâ have moved towards simply crossing females together and selling fem seeds as that way you can impose selective pressure since you know the traits of each parent instead of guessing which males are the best.
My personal opinion is that people get hung up on it and youâre better off just relaxing, having fun chucking pollen and enjoy the experience more then worrying about reaching some end point of creating a new variety.
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As Iâm reading through all the feedback from everyone, and thank you all btw! That last part really hit home for me and helped me remember why Iâm doing this in the first place. I was over here wracking my brain like how am I going to make sure I achieve the exact goals I want and that would have lead to me not appreciating certain plants because itâs not what I necessarily what I have in mind but could be a phenomenal plant in a different way. While I am still going to try my best to get the results Iâm aiming for Iâm definitely going to have to make sure to keep grounded and just have fun. Thank you!!
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Having a goal to work towards is important by all means, I didnât mean to dissuade you in anyway. The point was more to see it as a learning curve, be realistic about your results instead of trying to find ways they fit your âideal plantâ, donât be surprised but embrace the randomness which will probably ensue, try different approaches but again be realistic about whether youâre improving the seed line or seeing inbreeding depression.
Making seeds is an invaluable part of the learning curve, partly as it teaches people that the frostiest looking plant isnât always the best as not all trichs are created equal. My best advice is to hold forming any opinion until after harvesting and actually sampling them. Itâs way too easy to form attachments to certain plants which cloud which bias your opinion. Blind taste tests are your best friend
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Ohhh you didnât dissuade me at all! You only helped keep me from going down a hole of taking things too seriously and loosing all that fuzzy stomached joy that growing brings me lol
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Lots of good advice above! 
some personal suggestions:
- Have fun! âŚdonât let it turn into âa jobâ
- donât breed towards a âclever nameâ, only name the good stuff, (after you smoke it
). - Constantly work at adding new skills to your âtool boxâ while working on projects
Thatâs enough, you get the ideaâŚ
Cheers
G
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