Hey all. I want to go down the rabbit hole on this one. The rule is, no selfing and no feminization anywhere in this journey. I want to know what this would take if we’re just talking normal breeding, if it’s even possible.
There’s a strain I’m looking into which is a feminized strain. One of the parents is a landrace, with no known relatives. What would I have to do in order to make seeds that are like the original landrace parent? They also need to be regular seeds.
The only logical thing I can think of is F1 hunting said feminized strain until I find a specimen that I believe matches closest to the landrace parent. Once that said lady is found, obviously I would have to outcross it in order to bring a Y chromosome into the picture. I would search for a strain which is highly recessive in it’s breeding and find a suitable male of that strain. Cross the recessive male to the “landrace” mom and then make F1 seeds with those. In those F1s I would hunt for anything that resembled the mom and try to find a similar male. Then breeding those F1s together somewhere in the F2s a good resemblance from the original landrace will be there? Sure it will be slightly ‘muddy’ if you will.
The deal is, once you cross to the male, your cross will only be 25% of the strain that you are looking for.
Trying to isolate the landrace from this type of cross, will be almost impossible.
Depending on rather the male used is from a stable breeding or the product of several crosses, will determine how many different phenos that you get based on his genetics alone.
If the landrace is pure, it could dominate the cross, but it could also forces more randoms plants in the process because it’s genetics are so overwhelming.
I suggest making your male cross and then pheno hunt for at least 3 plants similar to what you are looking for. From there simply combine them until they become more like what you want.
Also, don’t worrying about using a pheno that isn’t like the landrace. The cross still carry her genetics and it’s possible to still get what you want out of it. Who knows, you may find something that you like even better.
Perfect. The kind of answer I was looking for. I thought it would be an impossible task, especially since I don’t know any traits from the landrace I’m looking for. Finding a recessive male doesn’t seem too difficult for me. I have a few highly selected IBLs which should have a male suitable for the job.
What if I could introduce another 50/50 mix that’s similar to the original except it has a different female mother?? I believe the landrace was the pollen donor in the cross.
By crossing a known relative, is a better move towards getting what you want.
Bro if it s all guess work, it hardly seems feasible to carry on. You said, “I think the landrace is the father.” You are about to base a lot of time and efforts on unknown genetics.
Since the genetics you are looking for comes from a cross, the seeds produced from plants will also show that crossing. Add the male, and it will show its heritage in the cross as well.
Once you add to the gene pool, there is no way of removing certain traits.
For isn’t if the land races had butter terps, and what ever crosses to it had popcorn terps. A cross will for the most part produce. Buttered popcorn with variations leaning in either directions.
Now breed a male that has caramel terps. This will cause your creation to now have buttered caramel popcorn.
That scenario will apply to every gene within the plants. Rather it’s phenotypic or genotypic.
Meaning rather you see it or not. So the more your mix into the cross, the less likelihood of isolating specifics.
What I do is let the cross show me what it has inside. Then breed accordingly, to get the plant heading into my preferred direction. I usually create something much better than I anticipated.
That’s the problem with most breeders. They tend to forget that they will need something to breed their creation to, in order to keep it moving on the direction they are looking for. Once their strain is created, they have that deer in the headlights look . Because now they need something to breed the creation to that want take it outside the scheme of things.
Well it was just an idea in the first place so no loss for moving on. Your points on the topic have affirmed what I was already thinking… that I shouldn’t even bother because I have no idea what the parents even looked like. There’s no way of telling if it’s ‘close’ to the original. The thing is… it doesn’t matter if it’s a muddied down version that has caramel buttered popcorn… as long as it’s leaning towards butter but still has the others in there… and looks like the original parent… then all would be fine. The issue is there’s no way of knowing if the parent was even butter to begin with. So ultimately I would grow out said strain, and pick which ones I liked best… because who knows what the genetics are.
I guess I don’t understand not having something to breed to. If you create a wonderful strain and take it to let’s say F2 or F3. There should be hundreds of different phenos to choose through to find the special keepers. Why do you need to progress that line further? I think it’s up to the breeder to decide that for themselves.
Personally, I have about 5 strains I want to combine into 1 and I want to have 5 or 6 separate lines from that, which are unique and awesome in their own way. Once I have these perfected and have my keepers I’ll be done. Seems like it’s going to be a 20 year journey so I’ll want a break at the end I’m sure.
When 2 traits come together they produce a new trait. None of my males smell like the consistent offspring they produce. I can recognize them through experience only. You’d never be able to match them up for a million bucks.
What does this say about breeding? There are chemicals in plants. Crossing a lemon with a lime doesn’t give you lemon lime. It gives you strawberry milkshake. It’s not like short plus tall equals medium. Chemistry is more complex than that. Breeding theory is nonsense. None of my offspring resemble the parents in any way.
You have the right attitude brother.
They say growing cannabis is an addiction, The true addiction is breeding cannabis. You never know if your next will create the next great strain.
By something to breed to, I mean a parallel line of some sort of relationship.
It’s kinda like having that landrace cross… and now you are looking for something to breed to it.
When I take the time to create a strain, at the same time I’m creating a future cross to have something to breed to it. Let’s say an related out crossing to freshen the gene pool. I do this to save time later and not Having to create one from scratch. A lot of breeders just use bx. Remember, water in, water out….
Bro people start project like yours all the time and there is nothing wrong with it.at least you are being realistic to yourself and the journey.
I wish you well brother.
Like brother Steve said, if you are using unstable genetics, you can get a wide array of terps out of a cross.
That’s what i meant when I said “randoms” based on how well breed the parents are.
Randoms don’t mysteriously pop up in a crossing. They are part of the plant’s heritage and can show up at any time. That’s why it’s good to know the plants heritage so you want be chasing ghost.
Very rarely do new terps occur. The percentage of that terp may change due to the cross, thus making it smell differently, but it’s hardly something new.
Peace
I don’t think breeding theory is nonsense at all, I just don’t think we have all the knowledge yet to be able to do it properly. It’s just math, everything in the universe is just math, including flowers, we just have to figure out the formula…
punnet squares were more than just nonsense they have applicable uses, we are the pioneers in this industry, whether that’s a good thing or not, that’s where we reside on the timeline for Cannabis, so any experimentation in my opinion, while it is true it’s mostly anecdotal, it will help find the truth.
@Sativa_Steve - I understand with plants 1 + 1 does not always equal 2. There’s so many unknowns with genetics that all we can do is simply postulate on. None of your offspring resemble the parents but is it possible that they resemble a combination of the two? The idea wasn’t to find something identical to the parent, the idea was to find something ‘close’. Since I will never know what the parent was like… it’s kind of impossible to have any frame of reference. I would prefer to let the plants speak for themselves, especially since I know nothing about breeding from an experience standpoint.
@Blu-Tri - I sure hope I don’t go off the deep end with my breeding journey then! I’ve already collected about 50 strains for my seed vault which are all on the table for breeding with. I can’t imagine how crazy I will be when I have 2000+ seeds from my own strains.
@Dr.VitaminGreen - I agree with your statements about punnett squares. While it isn’t completely accurate it does give a very good mathematical approach to genetics. I think this is where more universities and research companies need to be involved. Like you said, we just need to develop the formulas.
Exactly, but that’s why it’s also funny to watch “breeders,” throw out f1 crosses every 6 months. All they did was take a clone only and throw pollen on it. Same as you or I, but they call it “breeding,” while we know it was luck.
Then, let’s says you get f2, you got the most open part of the gene pool!
RIP to the man Subcool, but he was ALWAYS made fun of for being a “closet grower,” but that’s because most selections probably took place by breeders who were illegal if they are from early 2000 or before, so no one in our history has been selecting from more than 100-500 plants at a time for breeding, perhaps still, unless they are a Jungle Boys or Cookies, what have you type of operation.
Does this mean it’s worthless to try and play with the big boys, just because you can’t look at the same amount of plants they can? Nope, because no matter what, beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Edit* idk about universities studying it, unless they allow in genetics found, they US government has been producing cannabis for end of life patients since the 1970s in Mississippi, and it’s supposedly garbage haha
I’d temper your expectations a bit. You can make seeds that are much closer to one of the parents, but you won’t “extract” it from a hybrid.
Here’s what I’d do.
Since you have fems, fem breed them.
Cross as many F1s to as many other F1s as possible. For example, reverse 4 females and cross them with 4 other females. Equal numbers will maximize the combinations.
Spend all your time looking in this diverse set of F2s. Just keep growing them out and cloning them. If you can observe traits early on, like narrow leaves, just kill them as early as you can determine whether they are close enough to the parent you want.
When you find one that is as close as you think you can get it, cross it to the next best one and then backcross it again.
If you want to keep going, repeat the whole search, starting in your backcrossed seeds.
I’m with @lefthandseeds
I would do as he said when developing my Nympho. Sometimes it would take over a year to find matchable phenos. While doing so, I learned the differences in the phenos and how to pick them out early.
The process taught me a lot. Especially about expectations. It’s fun making crosses and the outcomes turn out as predicted.
The thing is, I don’t want to fem at all. For this idea I wanted to use a recessive male. I know they’re out there… I don’t like the idea of taking a fem line to F2 or beyond. Maybe I’m just old fashioned but I don’t like the idea of feminizing. It’s not natural in most cases. Sure I could get an F1 with 50/50 of the genetics I’m looking for but the thing is if you make another F1 I don’t see how the odds go past 50/50… there always going to be the ‘unknown half’. What’s the point in all those backcrosses then?
Every new strain you hybridized in will diminish and dilute the genetics of what you’re looking for. It’s not realistic to hybridize twice and then accurately recover the genetics of one of the original parents. It’s not even possible from any hybridization, but the more genetics you add into the pool, the farther you are getting from your goal. If you want to have regular seeds and do regular breeding, that’s fine. But it’s incompatible with your other goals.
The reason for backcrossing is to reinforce the closest genetics you can find of one of the parents. Secondly, it is impossible to find what you are looking for in the F1 generation. The F1 generation produces fairly uniform plants that vastly over represent dominant traits. It is pointless to look for something similar a parent there, because it’s not generally possible to retain any recessive traits unless they are present in both parents. Don’t waste your time growing F1. Get to F2 with as little bottleneck as possible and grow F2 plants. You need the variation if you’re going to get close to a parent strain.
Even after you inbreed to F2, and then backcross you will still have variation to work with and may get a little closer to a finding something similar to a parent by continuing to search the seeds. Because you are trying to “dehybridize” in the direction of a stable parent, you will need to regain that stability gradually, because hybridization has disrupted a bunch of traits into heterozygous alleles.
Kinfolk I’m gonna give it to you raw. Every breeder who responded, gave you the same answer no matter how differently they sounded.
That is, “don’t fool with f1’s for breeding.”
Even Steve is telling you what you are going to get when you breed them f1’s.
Lefthand just gave it to you brother.
I’m gonna keep an eye on you brother. Not to say that you cannot do what you have planned.
I just want to watch and see your next move bro. The information is right there, you next move will tell us everything. Good luck.
Generally I agree with everything you say. This situation is slightly different though. The strain that this whole idea is based on is called CBD Cake by Kalashnikov seeds. It’s a 50/50 mix between Wedding Cake (well known growth habits I would assume) and Krasnodar CBD landrace. My idea was… is it possible through some kind of breeding to get something ‘close’ to the original landrace. Doesn’t matter if it’s ‘muddy’. The question was, is it possible? The resounding answer I got was no. It’s not practical in any shape or form. But let’s go down the rabbit hole anyways
Let’s say I find this recessive male and make F1s. I can’t believe for the life of me that the F1s will be uniform. We’re taking a polyhybrid and crossing it to another polyhybrid. Regardless, for the sake of this experiment… let’s say we find what we ‘think’ is a good F1 pair. We mate them & sprout the F2s. Now this is where I don’t follow you. If we ‘backcross’ we’re never backcrossing to a pure parent. we’re ‘backcrossing’ to a 50/50 hybrid. There’s literally no way to ever get to 100% through breeding. We can get back to the F1 pairing (the original CBD Cake mom) like Mr Soul did with C-99. That would be like Mr Soul trying to extract his Sensi Pearl from his Princess mom without having any other strain. The idea I had is literally impossible.
PetalPowerseed gave me advice about looking for a similar landrace to fill the gaps. This is a much more practical approach in my opinion. In all honesty, I would probably be better off pheno hunting and working a landrace than trying to extract the Krasnodar CBD landrace from a modern hybrid.
I always want to point out that I’m never trying to argue with anyone I’m simply trying to gain understanding of the truth, or at least the truth to me.
@Cactus - I really like the idea of some sort of template like that for tracking my progeny. I plan on having several notebooks with a page for each plant I may copy your idea there and expand on it a little bit! Thank you! I think that gives a good objective based approach to our plants.
@Blu-Tri - This thread was just an idea. If you want to see my true breeding journey it will begin with my Lagkitan landrace crossed to my mutants. With those I must inbreed to F2 or the mutants won’t show. That will be the true test of my understanding.
@everyone - Does anyone know of a good short video that explains why the F2 generation is so varied? Can explain the layman’s terms of genetics. Trying to wrap my head around variation now. Basically like some kind of way where it shows what happens to punnett squares with F2s and recessive alleles. I’ve got a decent grasp of the whole thing in my head it’s just the percentages and whatnot which are complete unknowns.
. Because now they need something to breed the creation to that want take it outside the scheme of things.
on you brother. Not to say that you cannot do what you have planned.
I may copy your idea there and expand on it a little bit! Thank you! I think that gives a good objective based approach to our plants.
If you want to see my true breeding journey it will begin with my Lagkitan landrace crossed to my mutants. With those I must inbreed to F2 or the mutants won’t show. That will be the true test of my understanding.