Choosing a Method for Precision Growing - Substrate or Medialess/DWC (crop steering?)

Advanced Techniques
#1

I don’t know what else to title this; I don’t have the terminology.

I’ve been wanting to make a choice for a while now of a growing method. I’m weighing the pros and cons of rdwc versus some type of substrate/media - either rockwool, coco, or maybe perlite/vermiculite.

What I’m trying to figure out is which of these two methods lends itself to having feedback and (precise) controls of the growing “medium” (soilless substrate or water) the best and for the lowest cost (of equipment/gear; I’m talking sensors here for the most part)?

When I think about rdwc (and doing it “right”), I think plumbing parts/work, lots of water volume, water chiller(s) needed, nutrient doser not (optional), ph doser (optional), etc. Not to mention related stuff like rdwc setups aren’t usually mobile; you can’t move the plants etc.

When I think about methods using a substrate/medium (and doing it “right”), “crop steering” lets say, I think about Metergroup/Aroya and Growlink type devices, the sensors for reading the medium (how many needed, per garden, I duno), the diaphragm/jet pump and/or tank, poly line and drip emitters (if irrigating that way…), any other sensors or parts that might be needed.

Does anyone have real experience with the “crop steering” side of things? Anyone who’s using a medium/substrate and is providing irrigations based on something other than “timed” irrigations or similar, please share anything you think might be helpful?

I guess it’s worth mentioning potential setups, because that would affect the choice of method in many ways (plumbing more or less plants, or having more or less meda sensors). Two areas, one 8x4, one a bit less - maybe 6x4. I could do any amount of plants though, within reason, 4, 6, 14, 20, whatever.

Side note:
Poops420, a “moderator” of the old gmlshow podcast had been working on a system that used shipping scales to do irrigations based on the weight of the plant/water content. That sounded like a great idea. I duno where he got with it, but I know he got quite deep into it.

Anyway. I just want to grow better quality medicine and I think that having these feedbacks and controls could help with that, and also allow me to have a bit more time on hand. I’ve looked a little bit into crop steering for a while and I’m at a fork now. I’m not happy with the result of DTW rockwool, and just guessing at when to water, and how much to water, etc.
I read a couple posts, and then the thread of @eskobar and another on another forum too, looking for insight.

Lastly, rockwool aint cheap and is getting more expensive, perlite/vermiculite are relatively cheap and available (I hate perlite though, and it’s dust), coco…well it comes with bugs (which I also hate) most of the time - but that might just be part of the deal.

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#2

I’m in the beginning of my first cycle using Growlink/rockwool. I’ve got a thread, it might give you some ideas.

Tripl3fastaction’s Grow

It’s been a hands on process, adjusting crop steering schedules and such. Hopefully that’ll get better. Here’s the tent today. Some are enjoying it more than others.

image

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#3

I simply crop steer by using different npk ratios throughout the different plant stages , plus the usual temp , light spectrum and intensity , pushing these steers the crop / pushes enough imo
: )

I’m Mapito flood and drain
I flood every 2-3 days , easy , and dosnt cost a lot : )

Plus I reuse my Mapito over and over and over again ( buy once )

Hopefully you didn’t bin all your used rockwool cubes and you can just break them up to smaller chunks and use that

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#4

Thanks for sharing, and the link. I’ll check it out now.
Some enjoying more than others, I wonder if it’s to do with the amount of sensors (this is another thing I’m not sure about; how many is ideal, what if you put sensor in a plant that’s having issues and it’s readings mislead you, or visa versa, and more).

But I’ll check out your thread. Thanks.

Hi ifish,
So what do you base the irrigations on then? Time? How the plant looks?

What is mapito, or what are you using? Can’t get locally, I’m sure.
Every 2-3 days, sounds pretty easy, yea. But I thought one advantage of rockwool (mapito?) was it’s able to be irrigated (and dried out) so many times per day…

I’ve never heard of reusing rockwool products, I’ve been throwing it out for years, of course. Hah.

Thanks.

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#5

Mapito is just rockwool chunks and chunks of coco
But chunks of rockwool on its own works too I’ve seen

Yes just time and the odd lift of a crate when in full flower to make sure it’s not too light if plants drinking lots ( then it’s every 2 days for flood )

Just use cannazym along in feed to break down roots from past grows in your rockwool as you grow

My last batch of Mapito I had going well over 5 years continuously growing non stop

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#6

I’m running 3 strains off of 2 sensors with 2 watering zones. Obviously that’s less than ideal (tent of same clones would be) but I grow for myself and variety so I’m going to try and make it work. But it’s all for fun so I try not to stress.

I moved 1 sensor about 2 weeks ago. The problem with that was the new block gave me a whole new set of saturation readings that I then needed to adjust my programming to, which was a pita. The system will aggregate and average the readings from multiple sensors and feed based on that, which would be best if running all the same strain. But sensors are $300 ea so you still need to exercise some judgement along the way.

I’m only about 30 days in, so can’t really express a strong opinion yet.

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#7

I chat about steering with npk ratios on papalags topic recently
Or click my avatar then click it again and change bar to recent activity to see it
Plus I have Mapito simply the best …. Topic , there’s some info on there

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#8

Mar 20 on paps octo pot topic

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#9

@cdnBuddy also has a good topic
: )

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#10

Guys, have you heard of “Pinnacle Systems Ethos Controller”? Can you give me any information on it? I don’t think it’s a finished thing, yet.
Edit: I just heard of this “pinnacle systems ethos controller” reading through this short thread (I don’t use reddit really) https://www.reddit.com/r/macrogrowery/comments/su1h7f/aroya_vs_growlink_vs_egrow/?rdt=45154

I’ve known of “SolventlessBakeNVape” for years now, and he’s always seemed to be using the most up to date, high tech, and expensive(!) growing equipment and learning/sharing a lot of info. He’s been into crop steering for quite a while now from what I remember and I think, perhaps, this “pinnacle systems”/“ethos controller” is him or that he’s maybe involved in the project - whatever it is…

Interesting.

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#11

I’ve just seen the same vague online references as you I’m sure. I assume it’s still going to be awhile (if at all?), but that’s based entirely on my past experiences and nothing specifically to do with that product.

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#12

My Favorite:

Inexpensive, easy to use, works well with @ifish’s nute schedule, hook it up to an autofiller and let er rip!

Just my $0.02,
-Grouchy

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#13

I’ve never heard it be called ethos controller but there’s a decent amount of growers/facilities testing it right now and all of the ones that I’ve seen are saying it’s game changing. No bs overpriced Aroya subscription and they can be made any way to be able to use and graph whatever sensor you want. The sbnv store already has a decent amount but I’m sure there’s gonna be more in the future. The guy who owns sbnv store (Anthony I think) is the one that’s making and designing the pinnacle. I’ve seen some of the process and there’s tons of work going into it. That coding would make my brain melt lol.

If it’s available / not too expensive for me to buy for home I’ll definitely get one when I can. I have a teros 12 with a bluetooth thing for “spot checking” atm and I would love to be able to see the whole thing on a graph plus climate data too. Better than nothing for now though. I’ve heard from multiple people that the teros 12 is the better choice when compared to the acclima. Although I think Growlink recently made the teros 12 sensors compatible with their irrigation controller.

I heard from someone that there’s also a new moisture sensor (not sure of the name) that is being tested currently that might end up being better than the teros 12 so I’m curious the see the info on that when it comes out. Figures that I just bought a teros 12 haha.

Pulse also made some kind of hub thing recently but it doesn’t really interest me personally.

Having a sensor now I honestly think it’s pretty hard to be able to irrigate based off weight considering the plant is constantly growing. I’ve had a jet pump with a manifold on each tray with emitters for awhile now but was doing it all by feel. Even though my media looked dry af before watering (to runoff every time) I learned after that I was watering them too much. With the pore water EC readings I haven’t had to feed till runoff in like a week. If I can continue to grow like this I’ve already halved the usage of my fertilizer if not more.

Saving up for some of these fancy toys is a pain though considering my grow makes 0 money :stuck_out_tongue:

Most of the people I follow use coco or rockwool for growing but I’m sure other stuff would work too. I don’t use coco because it’s too expensive where I’m at. I’ve been using peat and perlite but I am about to do a run with river sand mixed with rice hulls. If it works out that’s what I’ll be switching to because I’m always trying to grow for cheaper.

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#14

Hmm, sounds interesting. I want to know more about it.

Amount of what?

Yea, no doubt. Me too. It’s a job for @FieldEffect , haha.

Fantastic.

Where can these types of equipment even be bought? Growlink, and the other ones from metergroup or wherever else?

#15

A decent amount of sensors that will be compatible with the pinnacle when it is released after testing.

I’m in Canada so the places are prob not the same. I got mine from blooms grow tech up here. Sbnv store sells the solus (spot check with bluetooth) though. The sensors are made by meter group but they wont sell to anyone who says they are growing weed. It’s very weird they get referred to Aroya now. They were actually a pain in the ass to get awhile ago. Glad there’s more places starting to sell them.

Edit: shit I just noticed there’s no option to add to cart from there anymore so I guess that’s not an option anymore. I wonder if it’s because he plans on selling the newer one soon? I wish I had some info about this one.

If you have Instagram you can follow pinnaclesystemsllc if you don’t already and there’s bits and pieces about it on there.

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#16

I poked around on that Pinnacle website, it looks like the closest thing they have to release is called the pinnacle Spot, which they’ve listed at a prerelease price of $500. That’s just the data logger, doesn’t include any sensors.

They go on to say this device is only suitable for spot testing and not for continuous monitoring like Growlink, etc.

If you wish to log data on the long run such as using this device as a wireless data logging node, this is not the right use case . The Serial-over-Bluetooth profile used by this device means it can’t go to sleep between data points so it must stay awake and the battery will drain after several hours. For continuous data logging the Pinnacle Sensor Node + Pinnacle Brain (coming soon) will be your best option

So it appears to be the equivalent of a Aroyo Solus with the potential to add on more expensive sensors, ala Apogee, in the future.

Growlink, at least the basic Precision Irrigation Controller and sensors, can be purchased by consumers on their website. If you want the fancy expensive stuff you have to talk to sales.

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#17

I’m waiting to see the price whenever the sensor node+brain are released so I can be sad that I prob cant afford it :stuck_out_tongue:

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#18

I’m in canada too, man.

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#19

Oh shit. I miss when forums used to have a little optional flag beside users name :stuck_out_tongue:

Well in that case, I got mine from here (eh) :

It’s also just a spot check.

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#20

Just click on the avatar/picture and it at least shows a “location” if the user filled one in. An option of a flag or some other always visible icon would be a nice idea, maybe.

Cool, thanks. Good to know another canadian store, too. So it’s $600 cad. And it wouldn’t help with automation of irrigation, just checking it. Hmm.

I guess I’ll need to get a quote from growlink directly? I don’t see any retailers of it. Looks like $700 usd for the system with one sensor. Over $1000 cad for sure. And would still need… valves and stuff, right? (And obviously a diaphragm pump or jet pump, emitters, tubing, etc. all that stuff. But I’m just trying to get an idea of the actual “crop steering” specific stuff; the brains, sensors, whatever else.

And I’m trying to get an idea of the cost of a crop steering setup (which I had a better name for it, controlled environment auto irrigation?), so that I compare what an equivalent rdwc setup might cost. The rdwc setup does have some expensive equipment related to it, but not all of it is necessary, and the “irrigation” part is essentially removed. You don’t need auto dosing and ph control in rdwc, it’s just another level of automation and possibly consistency and precision.
But a chiller (or water temperature control) is a requirement, that’s really the one big “equipment” cost that I can think of for rdwc. A “cheap” water chiller of 1/4hp is around $700-800 cad +tax, unless someone knows of a better deal.