I think when you look at the mix the 20-10-20 for say
N = 100
P = ? (50)
K = 100
Seems like the Phosphorus would be high using those percentages?
Strontium aluminate, europium and dysprosium doped
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US labeling for P and K include the entire compound weight for phosphate and potash, respectively, while N is just the elemental N weight. Crazy right?
https://www.esf.edu/for/briggs/FOR345/Fertilizer%20Worksheet.pdf
And mind you, Jack’s is mild sauce compared to Athena, Canna, and some others in the P and K areas. Like, not spicy at all.
Amending:
First Number - Nitrogen percentage of the fertilizer.
Second Number - P2O5 phosphate percentage; multiply by 0.437 to get P.
Third Number - K2O potash percentage; multiply by 0.83 to get K.
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you can even use it on watches, even…
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@LD50 That makes sense and the Phosphorus is kinda mis-represented just looking at labels…too bad 
Not sure what the Athena,Canna sauce stuff is? Is this some liquid you put in the reservoir?
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Those are just nutrient brands.
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There’s nothing wrong with peat lite special (PLS)!! Remember these things though!
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“Bugbee method” elemental nutrient numbers (for DWC hydro) are widely available because one, maybe two former students of his online class posted the values. Those values disagreed with one another, one had typos for Cu, and the other targeted a lower N value. We really need a former student to get in here and post up.
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Bugbee has stated that the res is topped with Fe over the run… Peat Lite is low in Fe just in general, so that makes sense.
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I do not know of any nutrient lines that recommend the same mix and N target for the entire run. Peat lite to me is more like an alternative to Part A “Hydro” of the Jacks 321 line but I digress. In my experience, 321 is too hot for veg and many of us go with an 80% mix. Peat lite would be a great single-input veg blend for certain.
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JR Peter’s and Jack’s are the same thing. So Peat Lite, 321, it’s all Peter’s. Peter’s themselves has a cannabis nutrient schedule. Yes, they sell nutes, so they are going to make me think I need more nutes. But do the analysis between different blends and it’s pennies on the dollar to include the P,K, and micros afforded by say, 321. You’re only reducing inputs for the sake of reducing inputs and eliminating complexity. Not to increase quality.
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Bugbee method relies on the soil-less media mix, AND tap water, to contribute some of the macros and micros. Peat Lite is deficient in calcium for example. We need tap water with some hardness, gyp and limestone for that, plus Wollastonite for Si, and a wetting agent.
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That said, if you aren’t using city tap water, or if you are but you haven’t compared your municipality’s water quality analysis to the ones from Utah, you haven’t ensured you’re using his method. I mean, Calcium is just huge in cannabis, HUGE, and the method/PLS relies on tap contributions. Water Quality Reports … where TDS over say 300 will have a ProMix rep (~same media) telling you to inject acid to keep the media from getting to basic over the course of the run, and too little will have you adding more calcium.
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Jacks has their own brand of minors that can be incorporated into the mix or you could make you own minors based on a formula that meets the requirements? I think the Fe is a big factor for some areas that are deficient in this element. Dr. Daniel Fernandez has a free program that will show you how to dial in your ppm for each element in question and give direction on the use of minors and how they interact with ph and concentration of your solution. His page is also full of hydroponic information that covers many different plants and has the tissue analysis for cannabis in veg; no flower data yet but I bet that will be coming?
Here is a paper that I found to be interesting touches on finding correct P levels so as not to create deficiencies from Iron and zinc due to antagonistic issues from too high of concentrations from other elements.
I think a water report from whatever water source you are using is very important. Jacks has a water submission form that you can fill out and send to them. I think this is such an important step if you are going to really start using Hydroponics!
Water submission form is at bottom and can download; they are good people to work with and very knowledgeable.
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Oh wow, thanks for the write up. Appreciate you taking the time and writing it!!
Ok, but I’m not really on DWC and I got the numbers from him speaking on video.So, I’m not certain it is relevant.
Good to know. I do see the beginning of the marks of P deficiency on my plants that are now in flower so that can be iron related as well.
Could be interesting in veg…same can be said for Maxibloom or texas tomato food.
Was local for a decade. Been to Allentown Pa enough times. not sure what the point is. You want me to compare the makeup of 321 vs PLS ? To what end? Of course I’m looking to simplify, why would I look for more complexity?
ok…and? I’m looking to simplify, of course I use tap water. I do use gypsum as well. I’m sorry, not sure what the point is, are you explaining what the setup is?
I am using city water. EC is 0.22- 0.35 (spring to winter)
I have compared it. Median is similar to UT numbers.
I do monitor my PH, religiously. My reservoir are 6.0 to 6.4.
so. I have not finished my current run of 20-10-20 run. I do not have results yet.
I do have frozen flower grown in DWC with canna aqua line. same for flower grown in coco and mega crop. same for jack’sTAP/UV/Finish. I have tried them all . they all tasted fantastic. I’ll do the same for PLS.
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I have to say this…
It would seem bugbee AKA nasa is proving a bunch of Spurr’s claims from 10 years ago.
If you don’t know the name, he is worthy of a look.
Spurr was banned from ICrag due to nay saying trolls.
That man was surely way ahead of his time.
Anyone know what happened to that guy.
My guess is he is working in a huge cannabis lab somewhere.
Thanks for everything you freely shared Spurr, where ever you are.
@Cactus check out Bru’n water and Alk Calc, you may find it helpful if you don’t already have something like it going .
This was from 2011
I have been working like crazy on my new method, well over a few hundred hours, which includes my one-of-a-kind methodology to create nutrient solutions with strong pH buffering against basic and acidic pH swings via very accurate and easy to use calculators (i.e., “Bru’n Water”, UNH “Alk Calc” and “HydroBuddy”).
My new methodology is unlike anything I have ever seen before, it’s quite unique and very useful. All programs used for calculations are free and open source.
Gotta love the audio…LOL
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Hello! So I realize I didn’t mean to like, depose you or lecture you. I’m so sorry! Gratuitous use of the quote button is my biggest error. I need to use the @ thing more. I was more like adding all of the trinkets I could think of regarding the “lesser discussed” side of using 20-10-20 in 50% peat 50% verm/perlite. I am a zero offense all data guy. Discussion forums are like, 85% emotion and I forget that allll the time.
And just for balance, I add complexity for fun and look for ways to explore the fractal. I forget that I’m not surrounded by that same energy as well.
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Hello. No offense taken. Not a queen of anything so you cant “depose” me out of anything…I’m the knife, not the Saint. I used to be a razor, like the one Occam used, but age dulls everything.
I’m just here for the facts, jack.
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(steps away from knife… no, runs from knife)
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@shag Yes he is very straight forward little nerdlinger. I suppose he had something somebody was looking for and was smart enough to pick up what he was laying down? This forum is my first to be on and it is very cool! People will find what they are looking for if they are willing to put in the work JMO? I learned from @LD50 that the tags on the bags can’t be taken for face value and a person really has to read the fine print and that is the business side of the narrative. I suppose it is really easy to label ignorance for stupidity and that is ok for I am ignorant of what I don’t know 
.
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For the Spurr ICmag/rag references, are you guys referring to Nitrate : Ammoniacal ratio for buffering peat when using high carbonate tap? Where some guys were using Jack’s Citrus 20-10-20?
321 is around 95% Nitrate, or 20:1
PLS is 60% Nitrate, or 1.5:1
Jack’s “Tap” is 80% Nitrate, or 4:1
Jack’s Citrus is 50% Nitrate, or 1:1
As it all relates to peat based media + tap water, here is what the people at ProMix have to say and again ProMix HP is essentially equivalent to Bugbee media in terms of buffering:
“As a general rule of thumb, growing medium pH can be controlled through the choice of nitrogen form as long as the alkalinity of the irrigation water does not exceed 235 ppm CaCO3. Once it rises above 235 ppm CaCO3 the amount of acid needed to maintain a desirable growing medium pH can no longer be provided by fertilizer source alone and acid injection is recommended.”
My takeaway is that PLS, and Jack’s Tap, both provide some ammoniacal nitrogen to help control media pH over the full run. Where nitrate ends up raising media pH, ammoniacal lowers it… to an extent.
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If your water is soft, (under 235 ppm carbonate), you can successfully steer media pH by using some ammoniacal nitrogen.
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At the hard water threshold of 235 ppm carbonate, ProMix pH will not be able to buffer against rise in pH over the full run, and by harvest, you’re hurting enough for the media manufacturer to tell you to use acid injection.
Lots of us are using hard water and promix. Lots of us are using almost purely nitrate ferts, and by harvest are suffering. PLS helps in this regard because of it’s high ammoniacal content. Jack’s also made a blend called “Tap” for hard water folks for this exact reason.
The only catch is, ammoniacal isn’t a gift from the green goddess necessarily.
“This study demonstrates a dramatic impact of N form on cannabis plant function and production, with a 46% decrease in inflorescence yield with the increase in NH4 supply from 0 to 50%. Yet, moderate levels of 10-30% NH4 are suitable for medical cannabis cultivation, as they do not damage plant function and show only little adverse influence on yield and cannabinoid production. Higher NH4/NO3 ratios, containing above 30% NH4, are not recommended since they increase the potential for a severe and fatal NH4 toxicity damage.”
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Promix HP is peat + perlite, IIRC. Mix discussed is peat +vermiculite. Vermiculite is not same as perlite but specifically chosen.
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Bugbee may have moved away from vermiculite. It’s not sustainable and always considered a PACM (presumed asbestos containing material) as it’s mined in the same mines and you have no idea what source is in your bag. He also stated in old videos that verm contributed Si, but it doesn’t per his latest offerings.
I still add verm to Promix HP to get it to 50% peat, for the tradition only!
Example:
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I wonder if this toxicity is based on application rate? Bugbee did study on application rates and seemed very interesting on how the plants can store and shuffle the mobile nutrients. The constant topping off of nutrients might not benefit the plant. I think when the concentration of big 3 drops then it can go after the more passive Ca and magnesium if concentration is low enough? Yo-Yo effects in a way? VPD plays such an important role in nutrient utilization too. We know calcium issues arise because of too high of VPD (dry) conditions dictate high water consumption and concentration rising too high and only most mobile nutes get absorbed and passives are then deficient. Yes always playing with moving targets.
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I mean per that study, 30% is high end for ammoniacal, while PLS is 40%. BUT it’s on coco which is BS. Hint is to look at Jack’s Tap.
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