Experimenting with the Megacrop PH and Buffering šŸ“ˆ

Very excited to see what the results are with this. Iā€™m on week 3 with this reservoir and still sitting at 5.9 ā€“ but I believe a good part of that is the Torus Hydro keeping me in check.

Iā€™d also be interested in seeing what the buffering looks like at a lower EC, as well. I found that the 1.8 recommended is a lot higher than what my system needs so Iā€™ve slowly been dropping the EC to make them happy. (Down to 1.5 now, but I suspect that 1.0 is prob closer to what I actually needed.)

This is great stuff to see, love having more data! :slight_smile:

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I am interested in this also. I have historically run 1.4 EC from start to finish with satisfactory results, and only somewhat recently have been running at the higher 1.8, not long enough to come to any solid conclusions. My pH discipline has never been great, so I donā€™t have any first hand data recorded from before.

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Bare with me, here as I explain why 1.7 as the target EC.

An EC of 1.7 is for comparison purposes on the buffering capacity since the other trials were run at 1.7. This EC, which is relatively high, was chosen as weā€™ll be able to see the buffering regions ā€œbetterā€ as the solution will have an elevated capacity.

One wouldnā€™t want to run a grow specifically at the ECs presented here. Youā€™d rather use an EC that is sensible. We are simply determining how well a buffer works in relation to other buffers. Or, in this specific case, determining if there is some significant difference in the inherent buffering across several base nutrient formulations.

If the buffering capacity at an EC of 1.7 were to appear better than MC (with a similar EC), it would remain better if we were to lower the ECs for both of them and re-ran the measurements. As long as any buffers in a formula is homogeneous, the buffering capacity decreases along with decreasing EC and; likewise, different formulas will be relative to each other.

We can see this effect in the plots previously presented when adding buffers. The curves at various concentrations appear the same but they show less capacity when we reduce the concentration. The same thing should occur with the base nutrients since we are treating them as though they were a buffers (titration).

A buffer with poor capacity can actually be perfectly acceptable if there is little unbalanced H+/OH- exchange occurring. Buffers handle any unbalance in the biological exchange. The greater the unbalance, the more buffer capacity may be needed.

Without knowing the rate of H+ / OH- exchange that actual occurs, the plots actually tells us nothing about time. It does tell us that higher concentrations of buffering components can buffer more H+ / OH-. It also tells how much ā€œbetterā€ one buffer is compared to another.

For instance, if you were to build a buffer solution, you could use much less MES relative to a citrate buffer. Or, for that matter, much more of a phosphate buffer to achieve the same effect. But, we could only guess how much would be useful for any particular situation since we donā€™t know anything about the unbalanced exchange (fwiw, this can theoretically be calculated but letā€™s not because itā€™s hard and has hundreds of possible variables).

For comparing two base formulations, what weā€™ll get thatā€™ll be useful is simply that one has more (or less) buffering capacity or differing regions than the other. Along with previous experiments and the hands-on experience, weā€™ll possibly glean some additional hints on how PH behaves at a basic solution level thatā€™ll be useful in the future and, perhaps, help untangle some of the current theories.

This may sound confusing or argumentative but was not the intent. Just trying to explain the line of thinking. Which is sort-of stream of consciousness, squirrel!

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Well put, and makes perfect sense to me. Thank you for being willing to do the work and share the results. I love this stuff!

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Trying to read all this makes my head hurt.

Thanks for putting in the work!

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There has been a lot going on here over time.

Key issues:

  1. Hydroponics is generally sensitive to PH swings.
  2. Plants naturally affect PH.
  3. Non-plant influences can cause drastic PH swings eventually affecting plant health.
  4. Non-plant influences on PH can be difficult to diagnose.
  5. Nutrient formulations may not provide sufficient buffering to mediate PH swings to a reasonable timeframe.

Summary points to date:

  1. Megacrop V1 has a some amount of inherent buffering (likely phosphate) but it is relatively weak.
  2. MES, while it can be pricey, appears to be an optimal buffer adjunct for hydroponics. A small amount can go a long way.
  3. There are some additional evaluated buffers that are weaker than MES but could also provide buffering while being inexpensive.
  4. Strongly buffered solutions can be useful in situations where control is difficult providing time to correct system deficiencies.
  5. Addition of small amounts of buffering chemistry can help stabilize/control PH drift as a general practice.
  6. Resins can provide long term buffering but are also pricey and require a certain amount of specialization to utilize.

Newer things:

  1. Reports of other nutrient formulation as potentially having higher buffering capacity than MegaCrop.
  2. Or, possibly the effect of organic chemistry and alkalinity.
  3. Opportunity to hone in on the differences between formulations and possibly gain further insight on suitable chemistry useful in differing situations.

If youā€™re see something ah-ha in the list of key issues, itā€™s probably worth trying to decode some of the ramblings. Otherwise, I agree, itā€™s a bit much to worry about.

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Received ā€œmostā€ of the Jackā€™s order this morning (these greenhouse folk are early risers). The local distributor sent me two ā€œfinishā€, I assume by accident, and missed the bloom but thatā€™ll have nothing to do with the titration.

Iā€™ll likely be able to get to testing the buffering on the 1-2-3 sometime within the next week or so.

edit: err, 3-2-1

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edit: measurement error, see correction in subsequent post.

Did a quick titration of the Jackā€™s 3-2-1 at 1.7EC in RO water being stirred.

The components were prepared for 1 gallon using:

  • 3.685g Part A (5-12-26)
  • 2.438g Part B (15-0-0, Calcium Nitrate Hexahydrate)
  • 1.134g Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulfate)

500ml was adjusted by dilution to the target 1.7EC. The solution is clear up until around a PH of 7.5 after which it starts to turn cloudy. You can see the slope change slightly as precipitation occurs. The titration captured starts from ~5.8:
edit: measurement error, see correction in subsequent post.

This is due to to rather slow but significant drift before becoming more or less stable at 5.8:
edit: measurement error, see correction in subsequent post.

The drift caught me off-guard. Iā€™ll need to verify the drift against how the RO water was stored (in gamma lid buckets), perhaps, allowing any gases to equalize to the ambient for a period of time (to ensure there isnā€™t a whole lot of dissolved gas).

Currently, it appears that the actual buffering between the area of interest (5.6 to 6.5) is on par with MC v1. Or, in this case 5.8-6.5 due to the drift. Practically equivalent other than the PH offset but perhaps slightly improved at the lower PH.

The two together:
edit: measurement error, see correction in subsequent post.

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Very interesting - and a little surprising - result!

I need more coffee before I can digest this fully, but I have one question right off the bat. What does that last graph look like if you offset the values so they both start at the same PH - 5.8ish? Is that even a valid thing to do in this case? Im curious to see what the two look like over the same PH range.

I need more coffeeā€¦

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edit: measurement error, see correction in subsequent post.

It would look something like:

Overlaying it invalidates the y-axis ,though.

The slopes of two linear equations illustrates the similarity in the target PH range. 3.02 vs 2.99. Drift from alkalinity is possible.

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There are a bunch of little details Id like to discuss, and that drift might change things some, but the elephant in the room is that Mega Crop has virtually identical buffering compared to Jacks. It may even have a slightly better/flatter curve in the key range.

To me that strongly suggests that the organics (or something) in Mega Crop are a key factor in the differences in the PH stability many people see between the two. It looks to me like the reason is not due to any buffering magic, but rather to bacteria liking to eat Mega Crop and not liking to eat Jacks.

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edit: measurement error, see correction in subsequent post.

It does appear more flat at lower PH but Iā€™d say equivalent at the moment. There is a some uncertainty in the measurement and weā€™re talking about a small difference.

Iā€™m suspecting that is one likely scenario and it lines up with some of your experience. Also, occasionally, weā€™ve seen precipitants in the MC. We havenā€™t had a good identification of whatā€™s precipitating (and why) but it could also cause PH shift. Manufacturer has noted that precipitants are likely organic in nature.

The drift on the Jackā€™s stands out here. If this is typical, itā€™ll throw people off. Something with alkalinity, perhaps. Something else we havenā€™t figured out. Or, something wrong with my method.

edit: I donā€™t think the offset was quite right, this is a better view as overlayed and zoomed in (starting at 5.8)

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Similarly, did a quick titration of the Jackā€™s RO formulation at 1.7EC in RO water being stirred.

The components were prepared for 1 gallon using:

  • 5.885g RO (5-12-26)

500ml was adjusted by dilution to the target 1.7EC. The solution is transluscent green-blue up until around a PH of 7.5 after which it starts to turn cloudy. You can see the slope change slightly as precipitation occurs.

The RO formulation show minimal drift with a low starting PH. Since drift was low (about 3/100 of a PH after an hour), I terminated collecting data early:

Buffering comparison against MC:

By the way, this stuff smells like dirty socks.

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Hey @Northern_Loki, what is your take on the Jacks? I have never used it, but this run right now will be flowered with it.
Veg is taken care of but I have decided to try Jackā€™s for flower.
im not using the 321 formula, but rather 2 different powders from them I will mix to get my wanted ratioā€™s.
Hoping to find it is a decent fully complete food. My last run was with bargain basement nutes that gave me my values, but did not want to stay in suspension and was a PITA to deal with that. Results were outstanding however, so hoping Jackā€™s will do me as well.

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There has been a lot a praise for the Jackā€™s recently. I havenā€™t used it yet and am just evaluating the different formulations to get a feel for how itā€™ll might act in hydro. Particular to this thread is how it buffers against PH.

They have a bunch of ā€œnewerā€ formulas in addition to the 321 which may be of interest as well.

So, Iā€™m afraid I donā€™t have first hand practical use with the Jackā€™s at the moment and I havenā€™t dug into the micronutrient balance of 321 either. My limited glance is that it looks fine. Some folk are moving in that direction due to some of the pitfalls of MC in hydro.

There are several individuals that do have practical experience and perhaps theyā€™ll chime in. Some folk have started a thread on it over here, as well:

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Been to it, mostly running 321, which I do not want to run. Guess I am about to find out. Im pretty vocal, so either way it works out I will document it in my thread as I go.

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For the heck of it, a comparison of what happens when adding 5mM of MES to Jackā€™s RO:

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From the titration, Iā€™m seeing a significant amount of slow drift initially. Wasnā€™t clear if youā€™re using 321 or some other Jacks? Did you happen to notice that drift if using 321?

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No no, never used it before, and not going to now. I will be using their 10/30/20 for early n mid flower, then mid to late flower it mixed with their 5/12/26 to fatten up K some in later flower . I like certain NPK RATIOā€™s in my grows, these 2 nutes allow me to mix to achieve those numbersā€¦

No calmag, nothing else extra, NOT GONNA PHā€¦have not pulled my PH meter out of the drawer on over 5 years.

@Northern_Loki

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Gotcha, youā€™re looking at their bloom and enhancing it with some 321 Part A to finish.

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