I believe we have been using the term ‘phenotype’ wrong for decades

Breeder's Lab
#1

Pheno hunting and phenos.

A term we all know too well… or do we?

The original OG who coined the term probably wouldn’t imagine it’s prevalence and use with todays cannabis crowd. But I feel we are doing a disservice with many of us not understanding the distinction. A phenotype is the expression based on the plants environment - the environment is key.

In 1909 Wilhelms Johanssen coined the term and use of ‘genotype’ and ‘phenotype’.

It is my understanding based on its original definition - a true ‘phenohunt’ would be one plant - several cuts of it - grown out in different environments. This would be the only true ‘pheno hunt’. Seeing one genotype express its range of traits based solely on environmental ‘switches’.

Or have we as a community redefined this term? Maybe I should jump on the band wagon?

When sifting through progeny of a hybrid, multiple seeds, we are actually looking for groups of genetics in one plant (or a ‘geno hunt’) - which we can then take a step further and see it’s performance in different environments (the phenohunt).

Am I just being difficult? Or is this a distinction we should acknowledge as a community?

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#2

@Somatek gave my favorite answer on this:

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#3

If you haven’t noticed, a lot of terms are used incorrectly with cannabis. Not the least of which is “strain”.

If I remember correctly, Sebring has a post about F1, and what it means. Pressed for time, so I can’t look for it right now to post a link, but it’s a good read.

It would be nice if it were consistent with the rest of plant biology, but I don’t think it’s going to happen. And I thinks it’s OK as long as everyone knows what you’re talking about.

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#4

Interesting - have you guys heard of ‘grow off’

A contest with 100’s of growers growing the same cut out.

Gained some momentum. First time I came across it my jaw dropped, I couldn’t believe the range of differences the same cut could give…

The cool thing about this contest is they test the final flowers for terps and cannabinoid content.

I was shocked to see the range in test results. Not one grower had flower with the same results - but yet they all grow out the same cuts.

This is the only true ‘pheno hunt’ by definition

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#5

Here’s that @Sebring post:

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#6

i never thought that when i started growing 30+ years ago i would be reading so much and stuffing cannabis info into my feeble mind sheeeesh :yum:

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#7

Yes phenotypic plasticity is the ability for a plant to express it’s self differently based on epigenetic changes. The various different expressions are known as phenotypes , All of those terms are commonly used wrong within the cannabis universe. Elevation plays a large role in this as does nutrient profile and light intensity.
Also most people are not using the term F1 , s1 etc correctly either

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#8

I feel that the majority of the cannabis community – at least the main breeders and those attempting to get rich-- are consumers, not scientists, and --subsequently-- use loosely generalized interpretations of hard science to give the impression they are more than just pollen chuckers. Very few breeders strive for homogeneity or maintain seed lines… it’s mostly a chuck and dump, and then next chuck the next hype strain…chasing the almighty dollar, and not maintaining genetic lines. Until Phylos, nobody in the cannabis community was analyzing gene sequences to determine the loci of specific genetic traits. And Phylos’ analysis doesn’tappear to be too in-depth… I haven’t seen publications of specific relevant loci but I have not looked at the raw data nor how they are quantifying such. On the other hand, phenotypical differentiation is easily observable by the layman… the green plant that purples when cold, versus the phenotype which stays green in the cold, versus the one that is purple without the cold. With that in mind, it does not seem that Pheno hunting is -such- a misused term.

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#9

Thanks for sharing that thread. Maybe through half - will have to take time to read the rest

Guilty for the use of F1 - when going back to basics always so much to learn or relearn.

Someone out there has got to be back crossing the same genetics for a decade of seasons? I know of one GG4 that must be close to a dozen bx by now.

As far as getting into Phylos, I guess that’s another can of worms - I’ve completely disregarded their company based on the uproar a few years back. But I see the value in their data regardless.

Tomatoe tomato :tomato:

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#10

I will use any term I want and I don’t care if it’s correct.

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#11

I agree I use three words, Dank- Danker- Dankest :crazy_face:

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#12

There are more than a few ‘inconsistencies’ in commonly used terms in Cannabis growing culture vs. proper scientific usage.

The problem is, they are already ‘baked in’ to common usage, so it would take a concerted effort by all to change them now…

Might as well ‘light one up’ and enjoy the products of your labours instead.

Cheers
G

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#13

Yeah I’ve definitely misunderstood/misused this…genotype the parents/familial line, phenotype like how three sisters can all be different. Even big companies misuse this, Twenty20 uses “phenotypic variation” to discuss how different the plants from the same pack can be with nothing to do about environmental changes.

I guess “chemotype” is the correct term for what most mean when they say “phenotype”?

Never surprised when the science terminology is all fucked up in this scene - pot been run by outlaws and outlaws alone for the last hundred years. Far scream away from The Academy!

I don’t think you’re being obstuse or anything here OP.

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#14

Phenotype = Genotype + Environment as you said. I’ve never hear of anyone outside cannabis community doing a pheno hunt. It’s a cannabis term through and through. What it means are up to the person who coined the term. By today’s standards it means, looking through alot of phenotypes to find a keeper. We can’t use chemotype or genotype because a keeper might need to have more expressions then just the smoke, such as yield and finishing times for example. Also, its hard for a grower alone, to separate the environment from the genotype and wise versa.

So me as a biology scientist wouldn’t use this term since its not coined by the scientific community. But as a cannabis grower and breeder, everyone knows what I mean. Tbh with you, since this isn’t a scientific term, I think it explains alot of what you intend to do. Since you have a set environment, you got no way of knowing if it was the genetics who triggered the effects in the plant or the environment, it was in a sense both. The phenotype. So looking through alot of phenotypes are in a sense, a pheno hunt. You are looking for your desired pheno type.:grin:

Pz :v:t2:

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#15

Yeah, I bastardize a lot of stuff, terms, slang, lumens, wood butchery, mediums of all types are not immune to it either. It’s my 3.8 % Neanderthal phenotype expressing.

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#16

Phenotype is genotype and environment. Not just environment. What you are describing is phenotypic variation.

Ryan Lee (breedingcannabis) went on a whole rant about this on IG lately.

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#17

Which is why I ignore any “breeder” who sells seeds instead of cuts, doesn’t have a soil recipe, hasn’t tested different soils, knows nothing about soils or plants, yet claims a specific product will result from merely buying their 20 dollar seed.

The outlaw excuse got real old around the time half the country got state licensed mega grows. Science has never been illegal, but you still have thousands of people saying stuff that doesn’t make sense. Chlorophyll smelling like hay and weed tasting like botanical plants are my favorite eyerolls.

The Cannabis scene is alot like the UFO/Bigfoot scene where people can be experts on alien race diversity and chupacabra mating habits.

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#18

I hear they buy each other flowers

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#19

Haha exactly. I’ve hear so many times that if you go to university you are being mind controlled by the government, the people who write this shit don’t ever think about that the same scientific principle that’s applied to biologi, is the same scientific principle who made computers and phones which they use to type their shit on.

Hey, I get that it’s hard not to being able to get an education or that some people suck at learning. But we got the Internet now, with YouTube. Having people devoting hundreds of videos trying to explain what we know atm. Everyone can educate themselves and its not automatically true because an old timers in a shedd who has been growing since the 1800’s told you it is.

Hope none take offense, it’s just funny how the bro science never stops in this community.

Pz :v:t2:

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#20

Are you saying plant material can’t smell like hay.

I am confused on what is being stated in this thread but I am a grower and have only made seeds from the breeders.

:green_heart: :seedling:

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