F6 and beyond: Good or Bad Idea?

Quote from DJ Short:

“Although some Sativa/Indica crosses matched some of the Sativa flavor and head high with the Indica bud structure, this desirability would only last for a few generations of breeding. Unless a person is breeding for a very specific trait, crosses seven generations and beyond the original P1 Indica/Sativa cross lose much of their original charm and desirability. Cloning, however, helps to extend a given plant’s potential.”

Would one of you knowledgeable OG breeders care to explain this? Why would this happen? I was under the impression that taking a plant to F6 and beyond was desirable as it resulted in what you could consider an IBL. But if the plant can lose the good traits when it gets to that point, how do you overcome that? I know there are good F6-F9 seeds being sold, what did the breeder have to do to make sure the plant didn’t become weaker in its traits as it advanced to that stage?

5 Likes

Natural selection favors vigor, not flavor.

Read what is being said until it makes sense. It is correct.

Taking a plant to F6 is chasing a specific trait.

The loss of that trait would occur during natural selection. F6 is not natural selection.

10 Likes

Ok after re-reading it several times I’m understanding it like this now:

Plant has these traits: Potent, smells like lemons, high yield.

After selective breeding for any one of those traits individually, the other traits could change. So, focusing on trying to keep the potency, but after F6 the plant is now smelling like coffee and doesn’t yield as much because those traits weren’t important in the selection process.

If I’m understanding correctly this is pretty much common sense? The difficulty in keeping several desirable traits over many generations is where the skills of the breeder come in, I’m assuming. Is this why there are not many breeders creating IBL of their strains? Or are some plants just impossible to breed true?

9 Likes

Too few plants in each generation and without a specific goal in mind.

7 Likes

The main difficulty is to juggle with a few practical concepts in the same time, without forgetting one in the flow to don’t be fooled. It’s the stack of all these concepts than draw a pattern to play with.

Let’s dance.

I was under the impression that taking a plant to F6 and beyond was desirable as it resulted in what you could consider an IBL.

The term IBL is just a way to express than you search something in a limited range and than you expect a limited variation to find it. Let’s say a specific line than start in F2, this “F6 thing” is just an arbitrary appreciation than was injected in your mind by the marketing only. At the moment you cross twos specimens from the same generation and from the same line, it’s an IBL. No matter if it last only one generation of a dozen, it’s an inbred line in the absolute. The Fx mention is only here to indicate on wich level of pressure we are talking about.

By example, you can act by suppression in pushing the line very far in a trait (in term of pressure). Basically killing all specimens during a few generation than don’t answer to the stats you choose, and no matter the quality of all others traits. I take this radical example to draw obviously something without any nuancies.

Another example is the open pollination wich is an IBL too if all the specimens are from the same initial specimens.

Twos cases, twos opposite goal. The twos are not the insurance of any notion of quality, only your hands and your decisions will give the level of quality of a line. So the selection than you apply, and the skills you have to determine the patterns. The more patterns you master, better will be the whole quality off course.

The DJ Short quote talk more about the difference between an heterosis state of a blend and its late state after a fews inbred generations.

I loop again on the fact than the desirability of a line is highly relative to your choices, your tastes, your skills and on the profile of a line. This line can have a “fire weed”, but can be also only a “fire breeding material” too. Like by example a dominant structure on wich you refine a specific final product with others bloods (yielder, sativa, CBD whatever…)

But if the plant can lose the good traits when it gets to that point, how do you overcome that?

With all the tools at your disposition in regard of the methodology you have. Basically, keeping a reference alive (in any form) until you replace it by better. And even in the case of a simple mom/pop, the stories of breeders than was doomed by the lose of only one cut are legions.

The difficulty in keeping several desirable traits over many generations is where the skills of the breeder come in, I’m assuming.

Exactly but just before this sentence you don’t saw a major point : the linked traits and the inherent equilibrum of the genotype in question.

In your example, the potency can be directly linked with the yield. In a good way, or in bad way. Or worse, indirectly linked in both way by an intermediary traits. The Chem and its inherent variegation is the best example i’ve in mind to quote a critical intermediary trait.

Is this why there are not many breeders creating IBL of their strains?

No. It’s just because the market is a darwinian game, nothing else.

Or are some plants just impossible to breed true?

Some plants and some lines are genetically programmed to extinct in being very good (from the stoner’s eye). It’s not binary like true/false, it’s more linked with the rarity of this expression inside the strains in question and with the strength of its equilibrium.

By example if your cut XYZ is fire and if this “fire” is a weak mountain of interdependent linked traits … the quality will not resist to a change of a single of these traits. Like dominos.

16 Likes

Can you explain more about the patterns? I’m not quite understanding that…yet.

2 Likes

Hola Gang

and in all that you have to take
into account environment. In the
plant world those 2 are the most
important factor of evolution and
change.(the other one being dna)

Eventually plant will talk to you
you’ll know exactly what to do
and for what, there is a simbiose
that happen.

Bare

9 Likes

Patterns are everywhere in fact and determine groups than can be made from. I just say that only to confirm the concept with my bad english vocabulary lol

From an empiric point of view :

A strain is a pattern of cannabis, and the component of this pattern in this context is a specimen.
A specimen is an allelic pattern, and the component of this pattern in this context is the recurrent linked traits in question.

The more you’re accumulate patterns in your memory, your hands, the more you’re able to recognize them. And to swim with less resistance from the point A to point B.

Basically, it’s your point of view just before you enter in the selection process. Off course, the more levels of patterns you have, the more accurate you can be.

To stay in the ground and to quote a practical example, i’ve a an habit from my “prime age” than never leaved my hands. I’ve always sorted recessive specimens in a corner, even in the time i simply don’t understandood what mean “recessive”. They look different on one or a few points from the average of others, let’s isolate them from the group. Then fuck! In this recessive group, you found another recessive group with a reccurent pattern at higher level of accuracy … etc…

Everyone can do it just in sitting enough time with a cone (or not ^^) in front of his plants. Without any knownledge in breeding. It’s like the game for kids with the twos same images “find the differences”. I talk about that because it’s compulsive for me, can’t resist. It’s why i love so much to sort seedlings ^^

From this point nothing is different from a “freestyler”, a “technician”, a “i don’t give a fuck” … it’s when selection enter in action than things become more personnal.

10 Likes

Do cannabis plants have the genetic equivalent of Red Hair that you can automatically identify as recessive, with enough experience? I’m not thinking this is true, I’m thinking that you can only see what might be recessive by analyzing a large population over generations and noticing the frequency and combinations of traits.

Did I just learn something…or no?

5 Likes

Beautifully said.
It’s in our dna to manipulate the species around us.
Anybody can do it.

5 Likes

Do cannabis plants have the genetic equivalent of Red Hair that you can automatically identify as recessive, with enough experience?

Absolutely, but it’s more a matter of personnal “culture” and knowledge of the classics than anything else imho. When you have played with three or four different source of classic Nothern Light (it’s an example), you known how it’s shitty to keep her on the boat. So you can evaluate fast later how many work will ask an hyrbid with it, depending on the goal of course. But to spot too from where come this little hint in the structure of the plant, the taste … classics are not so numerous and have all theyr specific signatures. No matter the legends turning around the genetic than you push, you quickly turn around the same well known basis (classics).

Now let me soak this lol

8 Likes

May I ask what the whole F1-2-3 thing means, ive tried to look it up and couldn’t figure it out. I’ve only been growing for 2 years and feel like I should know this by now. If anyone would be kind enough to explain that would be cool.

2 Likes

Hey brother, these guys are way above my head, but what I can understand I find fascinating and it’s been almost 20 years ago when I studied it for a bit I believe the parent stock would be P1 and P2,mom and dad F1,F2,and so forth are each generation after, and then their is selfing S1 and I’m spent at that, hope I didn’t mess you up to much hehe, cheers
@chunk
F-filial

5 Likes

Ahh okay, I see. Thanks for that man appreciate it!

2 Likes

Sorry I edited it, damn auto correct

1 Like

@chunk take a read on this thread and see if it makes any sense. Lots of good information; it might seem like too much at first but just keep going back to it and will will start to make sense. There’s also the GrowFAQs. It’s funny that something so simple in concept can be so confusing. Just when I think I have it down…BAM! Back to the books.

6 Likes

Sure, the auto flowering trait. I guess that makes autos the red-headed-stepchild in the cannabis world.

5 Likes

Learn something new every day! I didn’t know the autoflowering gene was recessive. Good to know, even though I will most likely never include autoflower in any breeding project. It’s come a long way from being “Russian ditch weed” though.

Any other known recessives?

2 Likes

The ECSD structure, the enormous calyx of the Cheese, the cloning performance of the Critical Bilbo … etc etc ^^

Some “signature” of specimens are exceptionnal in regard of theyr inherent pedigree, because they are generally a specific domino of traits that are not dependent of a specific work behind. By that i mean “stabilized” and more resistant to an outcross.

I think than i’m guessing what you are asking specifically, and imho you will find your answers more in the labs with specific markers and genome mappings. I’m personnaly not in this vein, i’m loving too much the empiric approach of the farmer lol

You’re rude with the ruderalis hybrids lovers ^^ Reikox work on it and as far as i’ve saw, he want to do it the better he can.

It’s the type of discussion to keep for cups, when nuggets are on the table. I say that sincerely.

8 Likes

No disrespect intended toward @ReikoX. While I hold the opinion that I do and have no intentions to experiment with autoflowers, I do respect other people’s work in bringing autflowers to the level they are at now. I’ve argued with @fishdude about it many times, just for the sake of arguing mainly, but in the end the fact remains that Mephisto and other great breeders have done some spectacular work in the autoflower field.

Autos aren’t my thing though.

4 Likes